Clinical Context To Ray's Theoretical Context

Discussion in 'Metabolism' started by CLASH, Oct 8, 2017.

  1. CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    Good morning Ray Peat Forum and Happy Sunday,
    I am relatively new to participating on the forum but have been here for a few years reading the threads amongst also reading Ray's work. This forum has provided me with a lot of useful information and ideas and I want to repay the forum by participating, sharing what I have learned and experienced and helping others. I have posted a few times in random places and have tried to put out as much information as I could to provide the context that I was coming from but each time I reread my posts I realized I missed a few points. So I would like to provide the context here so people can refer back.

    I chose the title of the post because I believe that Ray Peats theoretical context is very complete but it does not translate well to a clinical context or an implementation. I'm hoping to bridge the gap of these two with my experience, understanding and knowledge thus far. This is, as always, a fluid construction and merely just my understanding and opinion. I may get some things wrong, you may not agree with what I am saying but I invite it so that we can all build on the foundation that Ray has built and we can all learn. I do not presume to be an authority on anything and do not care about being right, I only care about finding the truth. With that in mind I'd like to lay down a few foundational tenants and a logical progression of thought there after:

    1st line of logic:

    1) Genetics account for a very minor fraction of illness, probably less than 1% (mostly with rare disease like huntingtons, klinefeldters, hemophilia etc.)

    2) These genetic mutations and diseases are a product of our environment over generational lifestyle influence, that have lead to aberrations. They are not inherent disease in our genetic code because our bodies are "meant to fail".

    3) The rest of the genetic mutations we have are like MTHFR, "androgenetic alopecia" are merely the weakest links in the metabolic chain and are not the cause of disease but the symptomatic manifestation of underlying systemic problems.

    4) With all this in mind, if genetics are not the major cause of disease only a few categories are truly left
    -toxic exposure (mercury, lead, radiation, PUFA, endotoxin)
    -nutrient deficiency
    -infection/ gut problems
    -trauma (this one doesn't really count as I don't think its representative of a large percentage of chronic disease)

    5) If you look at the above you will see that none of the first few categories are really separate from each other and all are lifestyle factors. You won't get an infection if your nutrient stores are high. You can chelate heavy metals if your nutrient stores are high. Your nutrient stores can't be high if your digestion is compromised from poor flora i.e. endotoxin. Infections burn through nutrient stores We can go through all the connections but they are all directly interrelated, none are separate. Now we have to find out where/ how to break the interrelated cycle of these things.

    6) With all this in mind we can narrow things down even further. I doubt many people are chronically exposed to excessive mercury, lead and radiation. I'm sure some people are but I doubt its the majority of our population. We know people are chronically exposed to PUFA but the only thing we can do at this point is limit our intake. Even with that though, its not a cure all and many people still have problems. To exemplify this, I am 22 years old (almost 23), I have been eating 6g or less of PUFA every single day for almost 3 years straight. At age 16- 19 I was 175lbs about 6- 8% body fat plus my parents never had vegetable oil in the house besides organic extra virgin olive oil for salads (We cooked with butter mostly). At age 20 I went up to 220 (bulking with starch) but even then my diet was all beef (I don't like chicken that much), butter, plantains, green leafy vegetables and some olive oil. I would say my max PUFA intake at that time (I have the value from that time because I was counting macros on cronometer) was 12-16g PUFA a day but at 5000kcal. So, at this point I would say I'm relatively depleted from PUFA stores. I am currently 185-190lbs at about 10% body fat and have been eating less than 6g of PUFA everyday at about 3000kcal per day for 3 years. The reason I exemplify all of this is because even tho I am relatively "PUFA depleted" I still have health issues, thus I don't think its a cure all answer (I know no one said its a cure all but I'm stating it for the point of the context). Also an interesting point to add here is: the time when I actually developed my health problems significantly was when I started eating a lot of green leafy vegetables and 6-8 plantains a day (I always ate beef and butter before). During this time I gained about 30-40lbs in 2 months, stretch marks on my shoulders/ groin, thinning hairline, chest hair, belly hair, and hair started growing up onto my upper arms (basically cushings syndrome symptoms)

    7) This leaves nutrient deficiency and infection/ gut problems as the main issues left on the list. The reason gut problems and infection are on the same rung in the list is because a gut issues is basically an infection.

    8) Furthermore, I would say that if there is no gut problem/ infection, and the diet is sounds (As I assume most peoples are on ray peat forum) then the nutrient requirements and the bodies utilization of the nutrients are actually pretty efficient and a peat diet should be able to cover all the bases for most people. Thus I think nutrient deficiencies are not directly the cause here for most people.

    9) This leaves us with infection/ gut problems. I think this is the basis for most peoples issues on the forum (minus taking obscure drugs the mess up balances in the body i.e. PFS. Just to let you guys know, this forum, Haidut and Danny Roddy were part of the reason I never took finasteride and avoided it like the plague when my issues started; so thank you). This is also the issue that Peat doesn't address too well but his work provides a strong basis for understanding.

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    2nd line of logic:

    1) With infections as our basis for most issues, I would narrow this down and say that if you have a latent infection somewhere in your body besides that gut then the gut is actually your issue. From what I understand the gut is 80% of the immune system. The other 20% is the mouth, nose, ears, and skin but the mouth, nose, and ears are all directly tied to the gut and the skin serves mostly as a physical barrier. Thus, the cellular basis for immunity is, in my opinion, almost entirely derived from the gut-immune system interactions. You can see this in studies with T-reg cells, TH-1, TH-2 immunity being dependent on gut flora.

    2)With this in mind, the number one cause of all disease is inflammation (which lowers metabolic energy production and shifts away from differentiation towards growth; rightfully so).

    3) The number one mediator of inflammation if the immune system. No immune activation: no inflammation (hello immunosuppressant drugs).

    4) If the immune system is dependent on the gut, and inflammation is dependent upon the immune system then we have to look at the gut if you have chronic inflammation (this is every single disease).

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    3rd line of logic:

    1) Furthermore, the single most pivotal regulator of metabolism in my experience and understanding is: SEROTONIN.

    2)Where does serotonin come from mostly: the gut.

    3) What initiates gut serotonin: inflammation which is mostly dependent on diet and flora.

    4) what hormones follow serotonin: estrogen, prolactin, adrenaline, cortisol, histamine, nitric oxide; all the negative or "adaptive" hormones of the Peat paradigm and rightfully so. With this in mind it seems that serotonin is the initiator of all endogenous metabolic issues (I say endogenous because taking birth control and other pharma drugs could cause issues to). In contrast to the serotonin system you have the thyroid system which is mostly: thyroid, androgens, progestogens, and youth associated hormones. so you have two basic opposing pathways for simplicity sake:
    -serotonin -> estrogen -> prolactin -> nitric oxide -> histamine -> adrenal up regulation (cortisol, aldosterone, DHEA thats converted to estrogen)

    -Thyroid -> pregnenolone -> progesterone -> DHEA -> testosterone -> DHT etc.

    5) With all this in mind you'll see above that the beneficial hormones can be converted to the not so beneficial hormones if you look at a hormonal pathway chart. Why would the body do that? In my mind its adaptive. The bodies protective hormones turn to adaptive hormones based on the environment of the body. So, the body developed metabolic switches that are determined by the tissue/ cellular environment to adjust these hormones (Which are messenger essentially) based on that environment. Thats why taking all the hormones gives people weird reactions; the hormones are converting based on the bodies environment. Taking hormones won't solve your underlying issue. They may help to turn the tide but you have to eliminate the negative stimulus first: the infection/ dysbiosis. Once this is done maybe the hormones will help to recover or maybe they will hold the worst parts at bay while you have the issue but I repeat: they are not the cure.

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    4th line of logic:

    1)what causes this gut dysbiois: the biggest factors in my mind are #1 c-section and formula feeding #2 poor lifestyle

    2) c-section and formula feeding set the intestinal micro biome and GI tract up for a lifetime of pain. Formula, if you research it, is pure garbage. There is no benefit to it. Every study that looks at it show only issues and no positives. Also, the food industry has been guessing at the right composition of formula for years. Many trial and error attempts with formula have injured many babies.

    3) Breast milk creates the optimal micro biome via the establishment of bifido and lacto species that cross feed with butyrate producers to create a very specific ecosystem. Losing these ecosystem or never even developing it leads to severe aberrations in immune function. (As a side, Bifido and Lacto species have various anti-inflammatory properties and they conjugate PUFA to CLA an extremely beneficial fatty acid. If you want to further deplete your body of PUFA why not have your flora help you with it. I know this is tangential but I thought it was cool to see that the bacteria can deplete your PUFA as well)

    4) Poor lifestyle factors include: drinking alcohol (Destroys flora, addictive if you have a negative flora; rightfully so), eating starch if you already have a compromised flora, eating a lot of vegetables and plants, eating nuts seed seeds and legumes, eating grains, emotional stressors, excessive exercise especially running, poor sleep, lack of sunlight, holding your breath all day long because your reading Facebook stories about trumps hairline, writing angry posts to people on ray peat forum because they advise 40 day water fasts.... the list goes on but I think everyone here gets the general gist. (Keep in mind here Hans Selyes general adaptation syndrome where he saw ulcers form in the GI tract of rats exposed to stress.)


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    5th line of logic:
    why do plant foods in general cause dysbiosis and issues for most people?

    1) we descended from apes, our closest relatives are bonobos. They're diet is mostly fruit, some meat (insects other primates, eggs) and insects and then some leafy greens. They're macros are about 40-50% fat, 30% carbs and 20% protein (their fat comes from short chain fatty acids produced by fermentation).

    2) Even though we descended from apes our bodies have a unique GI tract compared to theirs: 2/3 to 3/4 small intestine and 1/3 to 1/4 large intestine for us whereas they have 1/3 to 1/4 small intestine and 2/3 to 3/4 large intestine. They are hind gut fermentors. We aren't supposed to really ferment that much, we are supposed to absorb our nutrients. So excess plant foods isn't adaptive for us. As the brain expands and intelligence increases the gut size decreases and digestion focuses on more energy dense/ nutrient dense foods. You can see this with comparisons of gorillas, to chimps, to bonobos to US.

    3) Furthermore all plant foods contain pesticides (natural pesticides). They are toxic unless inactivated by our flora and our liver. The only foods made in nature to eat are: Dairy, fruit, honey and give or take animal foods (do to their ability to move they don't produce inherent toxins to the same extent as plants, they developed different defenses i.e. mussels have shells, buffalo can run etc.). The animals are filters of the toxins and concentrators of the nutrients for us (don't tell PETA)

    4) Grains are not meant to be eaten. They contain a lot of digestive inhibitors and metabolic, as do plants. Look up studies on the effects of feeding grain to cattle and ruminants; which are animals adapted to fermenting plant matter. It makes them very sick and they require antibiotics just to live. Mimics the current state of America; grain based diets and prevalent antibiotic usage.

    5) Thus the ideal human diet, which also happens to match up with the diets of our ancestors (check out info on the hadza, nutrition and physical degeneration by weston A. Price etc.) is one of dairy products, animal products, fruit and honey. Also happens to be the diet mentioned in ayuverda, the bible and other ancient text and ray peat of course hahah... (What a coincidence).

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    6th line of logic:
    Some statements on milk (this is from one of my responses to @Mossy on the forum)

    1)milk contains bioactive peptides that are released from the hydrolysis of the proteins in the stomach. The peptides function from antibacterial, to anti-hypertensive etc. (lactoferrin, lysozyme etc.)

    2) pastuerization destroys the protein structure, the reason the temperatures for pasteurizarion are what they are is to denature enzymes (heats damages proteins, its basic basic biology, present in the beggining of every bio text book. Haha I dont mean to sound like gbolduev, I promise :)) by destroying the protein structure with pasteurization I think the bioactivity and digestibility of milk is negatively effected For alot of people

    3) the fat structure of milk with casein and calcium is unique and beneficial for us

    4) homegenization destroys this structure (if energy and structure are related and structure is determinant of the state of organic molecules function then destroying the structure in my mind doesnt seem to ideal) homogenization forces the fat globules at high pressure through porous membranes if im not mistaken. This breaks them thus damaging the structure and the digestibility.

    5) raw milk contains bacteria that are supposed to colonize the gut and establish an ecosystem. It is our starter flora. Pasteurization messes this up.

    6) A1 milk has a substitution of histidine for proline in BCM-7 and opioid like peptide that gets hydrolyzed from casein. The histidine amino acid changed the structure allowing BCM-7 to become free and induce opioid/ inflammatory effects on the GI tract. (Look up the 4 phases of protein structure online, its makes alot of sense if u consider all of these things in that context). There are published studies online in vivo in people showing this. Also in vivo in rats with direct immune markers showing this.

    7) goat milk is the closest to breast milk in numerous ways. Its much easier to digest. In the 1800s babiese were given goat milk as formula by midwives because it was superior to cows milk when mothers couldnt nurse. it has a higher amount of GOS (galactoligosaccharides) which allow for the specific fermentation of bifido and lactobacillus among many other components.

    Basically milk is an antibiotic, that contains the right bacteria and the right substrate for them to ferment. It is the cure for the gut I think. As long as it is the right type. The devil is always in the details. I think ray misses some of the details but his overall paradigm is very sound.


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    conclusions:

    1) With all this in mind our goal is to reach a thyroid based state which is indicative of a healthy tissue/ cellular environment. In order to do this we need to have little to no inflammation, a balanced immune system and lack of infections specifically in the gut.

    2) how do we achieve this balance once its thrown off? We basically breast feed ourselves again to establish the colonic environment that is conducive to health. This means we eliminate most if not all fermentation in the colon besides milk while maintaining adequate nutrition. The stipulation is that the milk has to be RAW and ideally either goat milk or A2 cow milk (As discussed above). Raw kefir from A2 cow milk or goat milk is also very beneficial. This leaves us with this diet:
    -raw a2 milk or raw goat milk
    - raw honey
    -mussels (manganese, taurine), oysters (zinc), shrimp (cholesterol), scallops (taurin, glycine)
    -liver, kidney, heart, some muscle meat from lamb, goat or cow

    I think fruits should be added later on. I also think fruit that is picked non-ripe and grown in poor conditions is pretty irritating and allergic as mentioned by peat. The soil and growing conditions and time of picking are very important. Think of it this way; would you rather eat an obese cancer ridden american or a healthy abkhasian from the caucasus mountains of georgia?

    supplements: fat solubles topically, energin topically, maybe aspirin. Maybe Vit C (still researching this due to Peats warnings, although linus pauling and Matthias Rath provide interesting info on this. If anyone knows more about vit C please let me know!!!) support the body/ environment to alleviate its own problems, I think too many supplements are an issue in their own right.

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    lastly a note on digestion:

    1) enzymes require specific temperatures to function, so drinking quarts of cold milk or other fluids will most likely lower your body temp and the temp in your GI tract effecting enzyme function and allowing bacteria to ferment your milk if your GI strength isn't too strong. Also, it will probably lower your body temp. Heat your food up to body temp and see how it feels.

    2) chewing activates the GI tract and increases surface area for enzyme function.

    3) Taste activates the GI tract and signals to the body what food components/ nutrients are coming in. Thus, being present when eating and eating slowly lets your body know what its getting and allows your body to ramp up the necessary components to digest your meal (this is my thought process, I haven't read research, just a hypothesis and experience so do what you will with it)

    4) Protein activates the GI tract from solid meats and creates a thermic effect. Its best to have atleast 1 meal of solid protein and some saturated fat (fat activates digestion as well) in the morning to stimulate the GI tract and activate the thermic effect.

    5) mixing saliva with your food adequately mixes enzymes with the food and also lysozyme (nathan hatch talks about this) that inhibits bacteria and helps to digest your food.

    6) the most energy intensive processes in our bodies are digestion and our brain function. Lesson the cost of energy from digestion by adequately chewing your food, mixing it with saliva and savoring the taste to let your body know whats coming in. (another theory on my part, do what you will with it)

    7) This is tangential to digestion but in line with #6 above. The brain is extremely energy intensive, especially in deep processing and thought. It may be helpful to take some time off from reading, researching, writing etc. and relax with meditation, focus on breathing and spending some time in the sun or red light to allow yourself to heal. If your body has to constantly divert energy to the brain it may effect energy for other processes (also my own theory, not based on direct research)
     
  2. Brother John

    Brother John Member

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    Well written and I enjoyed it very much.

    I do have a question for you and others: Is your goal "natural living", or natural living augmented with anything that works? So many seem to endorse "natural" as the way... but to what end? To have a life span as our ancestors? i.e. short! When we talk about many things on this forum it seems like a belief in "natural", however vague that may be trumps (sorry) all... for instance RP says the body can make it's own pufa. OK but does it? Does that take a lot of energy? (I'm not endorsing eating pufa but you cannot avoid some) So how much is good? How about hormones: Does taking a hormone reduce the energy load on the body? I do mean in an ideal context..It would seem to me that the people on this forum are heading in a great direction.... but this idea of natural is a mixed bag sometimes.

    Back to your topic: Yah, Clinical or Real world experience is more important than theory... but RP has some great insights theoretically that Point to reasonable/sensible experiments for Real World Results.. I think what you wrote was a good "playbook" for testing RP's ideas. Logical..Thanks!
    Brother John
     
  3. Mossy

    Mossy Member

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    This looks really interesting, CLASH. Thanks for taking the time to lay it all out and post.

    It will take me some time to wrap my head around it all, but I do like the intent, to put Peat's theories into a clinical/applicable context.
     
  4. OP
    CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    @Brother John
    My own personal goal is to find out what works, whats optimal. I don't think "natural" really has any universal meaning. This is the issues with language overall. The set of symbols we call words don't really mean anything without the experience behind them and with each persons experience being different from one another, what you describe as natural may be woefully different than what I describe as natural. Its really a throw away term in most contexts I think. For example, as you stated above you believe that the life span of our ancestors was short and this was the natural state. But there are a lot of assumptions in that statement. For example, who's ancestors? what time period did they live in? where did they live? Was their lifespan short because of injury, war, or famine? If so then perhaps they way they lived was optimal and they may have lived much longer lives than us if they had not been cut short by unfortunate circumstance unrelated to diet, sleep, exercise lifestyle; the factors that we normally conjecture about. The only context that truly makes sense is: what is the truth, what makes sense in theory and in practice.

    As for your other questions: theres really only one way to find out; experiment. But I wouldn't recommend a lot of those experiments on yourself. I personally would wait for more information to come out about these things (I'm specifically relating this to the hormone questions, PUFA is a little different). The reason I am hesitant on using hormones is because we don't know the interactions at play and I think they are bandaids for our symptoms as opposed to overall cures. For example, a common reductionistic thought: If your dhea levels are low at 40, then take some dhea.. but for me the more important question is why are the levels low, what is my body telling me by these low levels. Its most likely a lifestyle factor either diet, sleep, stress related. I would rather adjust those than play with hormonal balance.
     
  5. Brother John

    Brother John Member

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    Clash I agree with what you have said but would add this: Understanding why a hormone is low may be... impossible or untreatable by the methods you suggest. I agree we should do our best to understand hormones and seek to support the balance... but even that statement assumes a "balance" that is known, trustworthy and supports the health and longevity goals of the person involved. It's a very deep dive I think. Best wishes.
    Brother John
     
  6. OP
    CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    @Brother John
    That very well may be true. I believe that there are unifying laws underlying all of reality so even though we don't have all the information now at some point we may be able to better and perhaps fully understand the correct balances in the correct contexts. For now, adjusting the hormones exogenously, I think, can be just as "dangerous" as not adjusting them (this conversation helps me see where you brought the idea of "natural" into question, very interesting thought process as I am prompted to use the term natural a few times hahaha). Atleast we have some context of the balance currently, thanks in large part to ray peat.

    The real issue currently, underlying the issue above, is that the research required for this understanding isn't being focused on because its not profitable from our societies current context. Furthermore, the overall issue for all of our current dilemmas is the profit driven nature of our society i.e. the egocentric pursuit of self ingratiation through underdeveloped means (money, status, material possessions etc.)
    Our society as a collective conscious is but an adolescent teenager beggining to understand his identity.

    We need to move towards the actualized, aware of "the self" adult that understands the context of context in a more global and holistic perspective.

    But how can you understand "the self" or "the ego" if the ego hasnt been developed yet. The ascendance to the awareness of "the ego" requires first the development and instatement of the ego. For the idea of the individual to exist, there must be an idea of the collective. For the negative, there must be the positive until we realize that really isn't either...
     
  7. Brother John

    Brother John Member

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    Clash I like what you wrote. I'm in agreement for the most part. I have come to the conclusion that I need to put aside the global and holistic and cultural "wars" and focus on my own development. Perhaps if I advance a bit I'll be better suited to make a contribution to humanity. I like the thoughts on development and instatement of the ego. That's not commonly stated...
    Thanks,
    Brother John
     
  8. OP
    CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    Thanks Brother John. Its been a pretty interesting exchange. I would agree with you there, I think this is a good example of maslows hierarchy of needs to some extent, it goes hand in hand with hans selyes altruistic egotism. I think your doing soceity a favor by focusing on your own development. If everyone focused on thier own development in the ways alluded to in our conversation I think these cultural wars wouldnt be as much of an issue. Goodluck with your journey. Look forward to continuing the conversation once you reach watever destination you have in mind.
     
  9. Soundios

    Soundios Member

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    Thank you for taking the time to write this up. I enjoy your writing style and I think your insights are fantastic.
     
  10. theLaw

    theLaw Member

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    Excellent write up Clash!!!

    What are your thoughts on the sterile gut theory that Peat talks about?

    Perhaps there is a way to make high-quality store-bought milk more easily digestible with BCAAs or Cooked Potato Juice while drinking it at a temp close to body temperature as very few people have access to Raw Dairy.

    Cheers!:cool:
     
  11. OP
    CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    @Soundios
    Thanks for reading and the comment and excusing the minor grammar mistakes and misspellings randomly throughout the post. I wrote it in one sitting and was too fatigued to edit (haha like my college essays).

    @theLaw
    Thanks for reading.

    Peat's idea of a sterile gut I think is in reference to the small intestine, which although not entirely sterile, in comparison to the large intestine has significantly less bacterial counts. However, I don't think anything in our body is sterile in at all, but the concept of sterility I think is still besides the point. Also, there are recent accounts of bacterial "micro biomes" in the brain, and the placenta:
    https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/growth-curve/baby’s-first-bacteria-arrive-sooner-we-thought
    Brain Microbial Populations in HIV/AIDS: α-Proteobacteria Predominate Independent of Host Immune Status).
    I think it would be best to view bacteria, not as negative or evil but as indicators of your health. Everything exist in a ecosystem, a delicate balance. Infections indicate a disruption in the balance. Thus, the answer isn't to kill the bacteria but to bring the system back into balance which is why I recommend milk and diet to solve these issues (perhaps some selective killing can be helpful with phages or specific antibiotics: penicillin, tetracycline. The other antibiotics such as cephalosporins and carbapenems and floroquinolones are massively toxic and not only disrupt the flora in a major way but the body).

    As far as store-bought milk, perhaps you could try A2 milk or a goat milk. I don't think raw milk is that hard to source in the US. I have lived in Florida and New Jersey and Pennsylvania and have not had issues sourcing it in any of these states. The hardest part is securing the sources initially. Once you do that you just build the process into your daily system. I can point to some reference sites if your interested but a google search of raw milk in _________ (insert state) should start your search.

    In reference to BCAA's I wouldn't recommend supplementing anything in isolation like that. I tried taurine and glycine for a while and although I didn't get any severe negative side effects while on I had withdrawal from taurine when coming off.
     
  12. theLaw

    theLaw Member

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    I have easy access to raw milk, but I was referring to others who might not have the necessary means to get it. It's significantly more expensive in my area, so I assume the same elsewhere, hence the question about store-bought dairy.

    Member VisionOfStrength apparently did well on organic grass-fed milk, but also used AC and coconut oil to keep the gut as sterile as possible.

    Wonder why Peat hasn't campaigned more for Raw Milk if it is such a powerful food.o_O

    Cheers!:D
     
  13. lollipop

    lollipop Guest

    Well in Texas, you need to live near the source otherwise it is not available because of a state law that prohibits the transportation of raw milk. The only raw dairy product exempt is cheese. Bummer actually.

    Appreciating the conversation you started here and the other thread you posted in. I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of creating a healthy balance in the gut. The idea of “sterile gut” never sat well with me.
     
  14. RedStaR

    RedStaR Member

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    So you think we shouldn't eat rice?
     
  15. OP
    CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    @RedStaR
    I think you should experiment and see what works for you. Starch is a great substrate for klebsiella pneumoniae in the gut (a gram negative often pathogenic organism). Even if you eat amylopectin rice, a portion of the starch is undigested and will go to the gut to feed bacteria. Depends on what bacteria you have going on there and if your adapted to eating starch. Starch is the number one trigger for patients with ankylosing spondylitis, chrons involving klebsiella and other "autoimmune disease" (i.e. Gut infections that cause systemic inflammation):

    https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijr/2013/610393/

    Klebsiella can cross feeds in a sense with h.pylori:

    Cooling Inflammation: Biofilm Transformation, Helicobacter, Klebsiella

    Other things to keep in mind are animals that are fermenters (ruminants, chimps, gorillas, etc) develop dysbios and disease from grains and starch. Feeding cattle and goats starch via grains creates "bloat" which creates acidosis in thier GI tract and can kill them within a few weeks without antibiotics (on the plus side in an industrial POV it makes them really fat; hello obesity in the US). I think we are seeing the same thing with humans in the US, especially with formula feeding, antibiotic usage with even stronger compounds like carbapenems, cephalosporibs, floroquinolones and PUFA consumption. The gut sparks the inflammation and the PUFA propagates it.

    Edit: heres an article on feeding cattle corn:
    https://www.lakeforest.edu/live/files/1135-graberreviewaprintpdf

    If the article doesnt work the title is:
    "A Difficult Reality to Digest: The Effects of a Corn-Based Diet on the Digestive System of Cattle "
     
  16. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    :goodpost
     
  17. dfspcc20

    dfspcc20 Member

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    Although finding raw milk hasn't been that difficult, finding raw goat's milk or milk from A2 Cows is extremely difficult (and expensive), in my experience.

    I was part of a buying club in north Dallas where someone would drive to a raw dairy in Kemp and pick up milk for a bunch of people. No idea on the legality of that. Here's what I could find of the law:

    Grade A raw milk “may be sold by the producer directly to the consumer only at the point of production, i.e., at the farm.” 25 TAC §217.32.
     
  18. RedStaR

    RedStaR Member

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    Interesting.

    One more thing, what do you think about fermented milk/yogurt, or lactase-bacterium infused dairy? I know that a balance is optimal, and too much is bad, but is there a better practical way to cultivate gut flora? This should also open the way for other good bacteria to populate as it competes with pathogenic ones (and candida).
     
  19. OP
    CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    I understand where your coming from. Ill propose a list in descending order of best to worst then:
    (Maybe one day Ill open a goat farm for peat based people haha)
    *all are grass fed
    Raw goat milk
    Raw A2 cows milk
    Raw A1 cows milk
    Pastuerized goat milk
    Pasteurized non-honogenized cow milk
    Pasteurized homogenized cow milk
    Ultra pasteurized ultra hight temp cows milk

    * in some cases pastuerized goat milk may be better for people than raw cow milk. Have to experiment and see.

    Worst comes to worst you could buy your own goat, from what I understand its not too expensive. Just need the land, but even then you can buy feed so the land requirment may not be so large. (Haha this is a half joke, I've actually considered doing this and may do it in the future...)
     
  20. OP
    CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    Perhaps freeze drying raw milk may be less damaging than pasteurizing and would allow the milk to ship easier. When I open my farm "satyrical haven" I'll freeze dry the milk for you guys haha.
     
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