Facial Width-to-Height (fWHR) Ratio

sladerunner69

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The only real reason why testosterone would influence the width of the face (other than some amount of cheek bone growth) is because people with weak tongue muscles might not hold their tongue in the right place in their mouths. When you don't hold your tongue in the roof of your mouth your maxilla can falls backwards and down, giving you a long ugly face. It can also cause narrowing of the palate, in fact the intermolar width was known to be much wider in earlier humans who had tougher foods to chew.

The intermolar width was not only wider in earlier civilization but very consistent across regions and ethnic groups.

Do you have any sources on that theory about holding your tongue at the roof of your mouth? this feels awkward to me, I am used to holding it flat.
 

tfcjesse

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The tooth pain is likely due to facepulling gear connected directly to the teeth, when the force should instead be focused solely on the upper palate. The TMJ, well that's probably due to the random weird methods people on those forums have, like wearing a upper/lower jaw mouthguared attached to rope which is then attached to a wall, and then pulling as hard as they can. Or yanking their lower jaws.

I actually think any attempt at directly pulling the jaw/maxilla forward is stupid and likely to lead to TMJ. The main thing to focus on is upward force, if you force the maxilla upwards, it will be forced to go forwards as well by the shape of the skull. And really there's no way to force the maxilla forward without touching the teeth, which is no good.

And anything having to do with pulling or pushing the lower jaw is very likely to lead to TMJ. The lower jaw, besides aligning with upper jaws teeth, should not be manipulated, the real problem lies with the maxilla.

Also, the gum these people chew is very likely to lead to TMJ as well in my opinion. I think that's very likely. The falim gum some of them chewed has the potential to cause TMJ.

And I don't see any real criticisms of the elder Mew, #7 is bull****, and of course Mew would come under fire.

I don't see how androgens would correct the shape/angle of the maxilla, androgens are really besides the point. Androgens may be able to create growth in the thiccness of the bones, the width between the two jaw joints, or the size of the cheekbones, but it seems to be unrelated to the angle of the maxilla. Consider that women have maxilla idential to that of men, but generally lack things like a brow bone, or thick jaw.

We know for a fact it works: Face Pulling : A Mechanical Engineering Challenge

Not to mention the study in monkeys that unequivocally showed that facegear simply works.

What method would you recommend then? I always figured the makeshift methods I read about (eg. towel pulling) weren’t worth the hassle...
 
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What method would you recommend then? I always figured the makeshift methods I read about (eg. towel pulling) weren’t worth the hassle...

The makeshift methods are pretty much all straight retarded.

I'm gonna be making some gear soon, I'll show you some pics when it's done.
 

Thoushant

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Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
211
@Zaq
I see. I have them too, and it has somewhat improved, but I haven't focused specifically on it yet.
We're obviously beyond the loss of fat pads as reason(Naysayers neutralized - check), I think it's a result of emotional outlook and some fascial pulling tensions coming from other body areas, also influenced by emotional "armoring"/outlook/posture.
What emotional outlook? Arousal level for upper eyelid balance, and negative emotions for lower eyelids, anger, distrust you get the idea I hope.
I think specifally some complex emotion like bitterness: look at the face: Low grade muscle activity of most facial muscles, purpose is to not feel again, so not to be let down again. It's like a self-induced paralysis of the face.
According to "facial feedback hypothesis" we become aware of current emotion through sensing what our face is doing, so bitterness in that light is just like "nope"/ washing the brain areas with enough info to confuse it out of trying.
Emotion affect face muscles through nuclei that uses slow twitch. so it's not in our conscious effort, to change the face requires to change the emotion/outlook that gave rise to it, basically.
I did have "nasolabial folds" which turned out to be the start of bitterness, I lied down on bed, focuses on the area and tried to make it relax, by imaging my nose cornes lowering/whatever works: to do that it changed my breathing a lot, and I started to feel different stuff in the chest area. Same goes for the downturned mouth corners. and the lower eyelids: If you focus on sensations in the face, and just explore why a place feels "dead" and other areas feels heavy, just see how you can change that, without using fast twitch/voluntary fibers.

I find it interesting, that the tribe(google "tribe old man" "tribe woman" etc), the lack of sunken eyes you could say is of good bone structure, but I think it's also a lack of bitterness(and boredom, and other complex emotions I don't know the names of :) ) Every some pictures you will stumble across a tribe man looking bitter, and there you see the puffy eyelids, skin folds under the eye.

I just see GRIT on their face. You can see sadness, anger etc that are "old" but have become part of their personality/face. You can see their history on the face. If you google "thread face lift" you can see most women who get procedure are just bitter. The lifestyle makes them bitter, their face expression is of bitter, but it's very close the aged look, because it's the same skin line folds..

Most young kids with sunken eyes to me look bored/disengaged/spaced out. their face just doesn't seem emotionally expressive of their personality, or their personality looks...bland compared to tribe people(and some here will say it's their bone structure, it's not brah). ..lifestyle factors, socially acceptable faces etc it's complex.
_____________
The eye muscles are complex, interweeved and antagonistic.
Levator palpebra superior(mLPS)+m tarsus(mT, sympathetic) opens the upper eyelid. M frontalis(mF) also helps, Orbicularis Occuli(mOO) CLOSES the upper eyelid.
So it seems like a math formula upper Eyelid position=+mLPS +mT+mF -mOO
And you can have different equilibrium...s .
Droopy eyelids in myastina gravis is mLPS weakness.
But if healthy, and for some reason mLPS isn't tip top shape, m frontalis will do the rest of the work, and with it it raises eyebrows, so now upper eyelids are exposed and giving the hollowed look above. Alternatively, mOO could loosen up, because it works against mLPS. Either way it's vital to open the eyelids, to see, so I think the brain will regulate muscles to ..see(I don't feel verbally fluent right now lol)
It seems like there are lots of different ways to open the eyelids, and that different muscle activity isn't in concious control, but involuntary(or maybe in the beginning it was, but then "perseverance" despite weakness pushed it out of eq into a new worse shape)
see below: Eyelid opening regulates arousal mechanism. It's related to arousal level, so I ponder that it's also related to more complex mood(..unconscious mood state if that makes sense)

Lower eyelids: not so many intefering muscles, but wiki notes sympathetic orbital LOWERS the lower eyelids, which is weird because you probably know from squinting, that the lower eyelids raises, just goes to show the complexity(esp concious and unconcious).

Orbitomalar Ligament raises from orbital bone, goes through everything and inserts into the skin. So can you imagine forces pulling on skin from one end, and this ligament pulling on the other end, because the skull is in abnormal position.

What are the other forces, besides bone? Fascia ofcourse The neck fascia is complex in its own(tube in a tube in a tube surrounding airway, deep muscles and superficial neck muscles, more)
mess9.flattened.jpg

. It travels up, invaginates the masseter and then makes the "deep facial fascia".
I think it won't be too farreached to assume deep fascia connects to the orbitomalar ligament and some areas of the mOO, pulling it down.
It suggests to me that abnormal neck head position will pull down on skin tissue through deep fascia, and the eyelids will have to work more for each blink-> selective hypertrophy of mOO.

Eyelid opening regulates arousal mechanism
Looking up-> Noradrenaline release from Nucleus Coeruleus, the priniciple "OH ***t LET'S GET LIIIITTT" part of the brain. Looking down lowers that.

M frontalis and Orbicularis Occuli, while straited(so just like the biceps), don't have stretch receptors. If you pull a muscle apart/lengthen it, it will contract. Not those two! instead m tarsus the small sympathetic eyelid muscle when stretched make those two contract

m frontalis and orbicularis occuli have different motor nuclei innervation. Conscious movement uses the fast twitch fibers, unconscious uses the slow twitch fibers, from the article aboves. I think this effect applies for all face muscles.
______
A318963_1_En_1_Fig2_HTML.jpg

from here. The orbicularis occuli(mOO) is a complex muscle, blended with frontalis uptop, split into 3 segment(at least currently identified) and is 50/50 fast twitch/low twitch fibers(I recall..)
wiki: sympathetic contraction respectively opens upper eyelid and lower lower eyelid.

Don't do bitterness kids..(and sorrow, and boredom and and and...)
EDIT: So resting b**** face, and sunken eyelids are representations of personlity, at baseline. If you focus on the areas "affected" the muscles can relax, but sometimes it can feel pretty hard to do that, like pushing a truck and you lack energy(or maybe I'm describing emotional hopelessnes /learned helplessness I dunno) But eventually it relaxes, and you start to feel the face areas more deeply, you feel the volume to each muscle.
It reminds of childhood: So conscious of social events, that I regulated displays of contempt/anger/disgust by clenching mouth areas to pull skin down etc.
Later in life it's more like: display all you want. I think it's indicative of awareness of how you are percieved socially, which brings me to:
When lying down feeling your face, imagine you are giving a speech to a bunch of people, and everything felt on your face is sending a signal of something to the observers: that way you have easier time guessing what it is you are carrying in the face
..and the ordinary caffeine + Urea cream definitely helped haha :p

This guy, Although his after, I hope he is trying to showcase a point. Either way the tension he is talking about is emotional due to face being communicative, I think his pictures are noteworthy, and massage can help, but understanding and treating the cause is more beneficial and integrative into personality imo
 
Last edited:

smith

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Jul 2, 2017
Messages
386
@Zaq
I see. I have them too, and it has somewhat improved, but I haven't focused specifically on it yet.
We're obviously beyond the loss of fat pads as reason(Naysayers neutralized - check), I think it's a result of emotional outlook and some fascial pulling tensions coming from other body areas, also influenced by emotional "armoring"/outlook/posture.
What emotional outlook? Arousal level for upper eyelid balance, and negative emotions for lower eyelids, anger, distrust you get the idea I hope.
I think specifally some complex emotion like bitterness: look at the face: Low grade muscle activity of most facial muscles, purpose is to not feel again, so not to be let down again. It's like a self-induced paralysis of the face.
According to "facial feedback hypothesis" we become aware of current emotion through sensing what our face is doing, so bitterness in that light is just like "nope"/ washing the brain areas with enough info to confuse it out of trying.
Emotion affect face muscles through nuclei that uses slow twitch. so it's not in our conscious effort, to change the face requires to change the emotion/outlook that gave rise to it, basically.
I did have "nasolabial folds" which turned out to be the start of bitterness, I lied down on bed, focuses on the area and tried to make it relax, by imaging my nose cornes lowering/whatever works: to do that it changed my breathing a lot, and I started to feel different stuff in the chest area. Same goes for the downturned mouth corners. and the lower eyelids: If you focus on sensations in the face, and just explore why a place feels "dead" and other areas feels heavy, just see how you can change that, without using fast twitch/voluntary fibers.

I find it interesting, that the tribe(google "tribe old man" "tribe woman" etc), the lack of sunken eyes you could say is of good bone structure, but I think it's also a lack of bitterness(and boredom, and other complex emotions I don't know the names of :) ) Every some pictures you will stumble across a tribe man looking bitter, and there you see the puffy eyelids, skin folds under the eye.

I just see GRIT on their face. You can see sadness, anger etc that are "old" but have become part of their personality/face. You can see their history on the face. If you google "thread face lift" you can see most women who get procedure are just bitter. The lifestyle makes them bitter, their face expression is of bitter, but it's very close the aged look, because it's the same skin line folds..

Most young kids with sunken eyes to me look bored/disengaged/spaced out. their face just doesn't seem emotionally expressive of their personality, or their personality looks...bland compared to tribe people(and some here will say it's their bone structure, it's not brah). ..lifestyle factors, socially acceptable faces etc it's complex.
_____________
The eye muscles are complex, interweeved and antagonistic.
Levator palpebra superior(mLPS)+m tarsus(mT, sympathetic) opens the upper eyelid. M frontalis(mF) also helps, Orbicularis Occuli(mOO) CLOSES the upper eyelid.
So it seems like a math formula upper Eyelid position=+mLPS +mT+mF -mOO
And you can have different equilibrium...s .
Droopy eyelids in myastina gravis is mLPS weakness.
But if healthy, and for some reason mLPS isn't tip top shape, m frontalis will do the rest of the work, and with it it raises eyebrows, so now upper eyelids are exposed and giving the hollowed look above. Alternatively, mOO could loosen up, because it works against mLPS. Either way it's vital to open the eyelids, to see, so I think the brain will regulate muscles to ..see(I don't feel verbally fluent right now lol)
It seems like there are lots of different ways to open the eyelids, and that different muscle activity isn't in concious control, but involuntary(or maybe in the beginning it was, but then "perseverance" despite weakness pushed it out of eq into a new worse shape)
see below: Eyelid opening regulates arousal mechanism. It's related to arousal level, so I ponder that it's also related to more complex mood(..unconscious mood state if that makes sense)

Lower eyelids: not so many intefering muscles, but wiki notes sympathetic orbital LOWERS the lower eyelids, which is weird because you probably know from squinting, that the lower eyelids raises, just goes to show the complexity(esp concious and unconcious).

Orbitomalar Ligament raises from orbital bone, goes through everything and inserts into the skin. So can you imagine forces pulling on skin from one end, and this ligament pulling on the other end, because the skull is in abnormal position.

What are the other forces, besides bone? Fascia ofcourse The neck fascia is complex in its own(tube in a tube in a tube surrounding airway, deep muscles and superficial neck muscles, more)
mess9.flattened.jpg

. It travels up, invaginates the masseter and then makes the "deep facial fascia".
I think it won't be too farreached to assume deep fascia connects to the orbitomalar ligament and some areas of the mOO, pulling it down.
It suggests to me that abnormal neck head position will pull down on skin tissue through deep fascia, and the eyelids will have to work more for each blink-> selective hypertrophy of mOO.

Eyelid opening regulates arousal mechanism
Looking up-> Noradrenaline release from Nucleus Coeruleus, the priniciple "OH ***t LET'S GET LIIIITTT" part of the brain. Looking down lowers that.

M frontalis and Orbicularis Occuli, while straited(so just like the biceps), don't have stretch receptors. If you pull a muscle apart/lengthen it, it will contract. Not those two! instead m tarsus the small sympathetic eyelid muscle when stretched make those two contract

m frontalis and orbicularis occuli have different motor nuclei innervation. Conscious movement uses the fast twitch fibers, unconscious uses the slow twitch fibers, from the article aboves. I think this effect applies for all face muscles.
______
A318963_1_En_1_Fig2_HTML.jpg

from here. The orbicularis occuli(mOO) is a complex muscle, blended with frontalis uptop, split into 3 segment(at least currently identified) and is 50/50 fast twitch/low twitch fibers(I recall..)
wiki: sympathetic contraction respectively opens upper eyelid and lower lower eyelid.

Don't do bitterness kids..(and sorrow, and boredom and and and...)
EDIT: So resting b**** face, and sunken eyelids are representations of personlity, at baseline. If you focus on the areas "affected" the muscles can relax, but sometimes it can feel pretty hard to do that, like pushing a truck and you lack energy(or maybe I'm describing emotional hopelessnes /learned helplessness I dunno) But eventually it relaxes, and you start to feel the face areas more deeply, you feel the volume to each muscle.
It reminds of childhood: So conscious of social events, that I regulated displays of contempt/anger/disgust by clenching mouth areas to pull skin down etc.
Later in life it's more like: display all you want. I think it's indicative of awareness of how you are percieved socially, which brings me to:
When lying down feeling your face, imagine you are giving a speech to a bunch of people, and everything felt on your face is sending a signal of something to the observers: that way you have easier time guessing what it is you are carrying in the face
..and the ordinary caffeine + Urea cream definitely helped haha :p

This guy, went a bit overboard in the picture, but it's to showcase a point I think/hope.

Sweet Geebus, my karma must be excellent to receive such a well-researched and informative reply. Thanks.
Absolutely, all acts of pretense eventually manifest on the face. We can't hide anything. Lots of internet people say that connective tissue and subcutaneous fat in the face is near impossible to regenerate, why is this? Once I learned about subcutaneous fat and noticed its absence in almost everyone I saw, it became pretty hard to un-see it, lol. There's certainly something off about people's faces in our civilized society and apparently they're not doing something right, especially when you can see a skull outline through their skin. Lot of kids in my H.S./college who try to act as if they're impartial to everything because they've been hurt and are afraid to show emotion have a hollow and pathetic look to their face. Additionally, western media is rife with "charismatic" hollow-cheeked celebrities.

That's good advice, I started relaxing my face after a few months of being on constant guard in public and now my eyebrows are back in their innocently-raised position where they should be. Getting stoned is another good method and works instantly ;)

Have you seen any reversal in eye depth from the urea/caffeine? Do you have any strategy for regenerating subcutaneous facial fat?
I have a few ideas from my forum-crawling, and I feel like I should give something back rather than just parasiting off your posts, so like you said here-
1) Keeping the tongue pushing up on the palate and maintaining head/neck/spine posture
2) Maintain deep rhythmic breathing and avoid shallow breathing to have lit circulation, and always breathe through the nose
3) Face-emotion congruence; when emotions and their expression are unobstructed(not trying to *not* smile when you're happy, not faking a smile when you're sad), there's no dissonance in the face that would lead to contortions and creases. Thou shalt be thyself.
4) superficial(get it?) solutions like using PPAR-Gamma stimulators for fat cell creation like Uridine, Zhu Mi... elastase inhibitors, etc. Avoiding cold exposure, sunlight and water fasts.

"Men are born soft and supple; dead, they are stiff and hard..."
 

Thoushant

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Messages
211
@Zaq
Thank you. I did gain new insights on a bunch on old bookmarks, that's a plus for me too! for the paraphrasing too, happy you see it, and I like the way you put.

I think it can go beyond emotions too: It's the regulation, the intention. Bitterness slowly crawl to the surface and poisons everything, so other emotional mood/behavior are long-term results of what is favoured in intention and regulation(ie "I will show them!"-game leads to resentment and gloating, "I'm only trying to help" to self-pity and resentment. "look what you made me do" etc etc are from a book "games people play"). Ultimately it's about dealing with anxiety of decisions/being robbed of autonomy and coping. So it brings it back to "percieve think act", with no emotional baggages.

Same way I've tried to relax my face and assume new muscle patterns, I notice different reactions from pass-byers, and I notice my face start to tighten to norm depending on specific percieved events. In that way, it really is amazing how much self-knowledge you can gain from it, but also shows why it's the underlying emotional issues from past are real physical chains.

I agree with the breathing: currently my all time favorite are deep frequent breaths, that have a slight nose sound to each exhale and inhale, and I govern emotional state simply by that, just like childhood. I think textbook says average breath is 500mL, these feel like 100mL tops, but frequent. it's like a microsniff.

Intersting list of solutions! I'll get to them eventually, I would love references or starting points if you have. Meanwhile Let's add fascial tension to it: Mechanical tension stops adipocytes from differentiating
Mechanobiology and Mechanotherapy of Adipose Tissue-Effect of Mechanical Force on Fat Tissue Engineering
On the basis of our understanding of mechanobiology, we hypothesize that the chamber removes mechanical force on the fat that normally impose high cytoskeletal tension. The reduction in tension in adipose stem cells triggers their differentiation into adipocytes

On the caffeine and urea: I use caffeine from time to time, and noticed immideate relief in eyelid edema.
Urea cream I've used religiously: can only recomend it, my face is glowing evenly, and the dark lower portion is, well, there is still some slight discoloration at closeup, but the skin is not shiny, and looks thicker, so the appearance is improved.
Also on "protruding eyes": I think a blood pressure, perfussion, cortisol, aldosterone can influnece
Aqueous humour - Wikipedia
Vitreous body - Wikipedia
and end up pushing the eyes out, with the eyelids. Aqeous humour interstingly is stimulated by 5-alphacortisol. Vitrous body water is transported by aquaprotein-4.
some starting points for future research!
And duramater also encapsulates the eyeball, so with that I think mismatch of neck fascia to sacrum-spine can affect eye shape too.
 
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Thoushant

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All talk no walk makes Jack a dull boy...?

@Zaq I kinda missed the point of what specifically to adress, besides the vague emotional states.

from entokey on orbitomalar ligament:
his cutaneous insertion corresponds to the malar skin fold and nasojugal skin fold in the lower lid. The malar fold separates the thin lower eyelid skin from the thicker skin of the cheek and the more medial nasojugal fold, is a landmark for the angular vessels
..
. Inferiorly, the membrane is derived from a continuation of the membrane covering the preperiosteal fat over the zygoma. This ligament is weakest centrally and tightest over the inferolateral orbital rim
...

recent study by Ghavami et al.32 in 2008 described the entire circumferential nature of the attachment of this ligament around the orbital rim. The ligament was shown to be continuous from the medial orbit to the lateral orbit in both the upper and lower eyelids. In the upper eyelid, it originates 2 to 3 mm above the insertion of the orbital septum along the superior orbital rim, and then merges with the septum onto the orbital rim at the arcus marginalis. Laterally, this ligament is longer and more lax than it is medially, which may partially explain the phenomenon of lateral hooding of the upper eyelid
Normally, the orbitomalar ligament elongates with age as shown by Lucarelli. In the lower eyelid, this elongation and associated orbital septum attenuation allows orbital fat to move anteriorly and sometimes herniate below the inferior orbital rim

On the picture: how the neck fascia shifts from massetter fascia to temporalis fascia, and how the article mentions zygoma fat pat membrane transitioning to this ligament ie temporal and masseter, and neck fascia are connected to this one.
The article mentions that the skin of the cheek is seperated from eye lid skin by this fascia, so extra tension from neck fascia end up in pulling this ligament. With age the sunken eye look is the "heniation of fat below orbital rim" as weakness of the ligament.
From the description provided, I would say this is the reason for negative canthal tilt too. It's strong inferolaterally, but also loose above. The lateral palpebral ligament(I think was called..) is a weak ligament compared to the medial, so pulling forces here can influence it's stretch.

So to relieve the neck fascia tension, we need to remove extra pulling forces, and then do some stretches to make the fascia more fluid.
It's attached to the sternum, clavicle and shoulder blades:
So sternum should be lifted up, aka the lungs have to be filled with air from diagprahmic breathing, until the sternum is pushed out(vs chest breathing by scalenes). That can be a challenge if you don't want to adress the inner demons!

The shoulderbaldes have to be rotated outwards and up: aka lower trapezius and seratus anterior should be firing, while levator scapula, upper/middle traps, rhamboids, omohyodius pectoralis minor should be stretched/relieved

The cervical spine should curve upwards and back: I find this easist to achieve by imagining the occipital protuberence lifting up and slightly back, and then try to find good neck posture from there.
Actually I think this might be a big reason: The skin on the back neck is very heavy and thick, the fascia is also illustrated thick, so loss of good posture here->collapse and tension traveling to the cheeks.

The hyoid is like the tongue on the roof, but specifcally stylohyoides has to be activated.

Also some fascia might travel with the platysma all way down the chest, so massaging the area, stretching pecs can also relieve some adhesions.

I'm excited, I'm starting this up!
 

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AretnaP

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Do you have any sources on that theory about holding your tongue at the roof of your mouth? this feels awkward to me, I am used to holding it flat.
It's proper oral posture, the tongue also helps maintain facial width/forwardness and straight teeth.

Look at mike mew's vids, he has some almost peat-esque ideas, but about orthodontics.
 

sladerunner69

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It's proper oral posture, the tongue also helps maintain facial width/forwardness and straight teeth.

Look at mike mew's vids, he has some almost peat-esque ideas, but about orthodontics.

What do you mean by "proper" oral posture? The biological design of the mouth or an arbitrary idea? Does dr mew derive his ideas from his own research or from that in past?

Also Dr. Mew's face is kind of strange. I see what you mean about "foward" face, but his mouth is not what I would consider attractive, it looks too abnormal. I am beginning to think that the maxilla does not play any signficant role in attractiveness as you submit, in fact according to research women are ore attracted to guys with a long face, if the space between the eyes and the chin is at least 2/3. They apparently prefer smaller foreheads, long chins, and defined jaws/cheekbones but don't care much about "facial width" which is a trait that confers dominance but is not very important because it is only a weak correlation, and likely related to the overall bone density and structure of more androgenic males.
 

nbznj

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my face widened quite significantly between 20 and 29yo now (and I'm talking the jaw, not puffy cheeks due to estradiol induced water retention). First widening period was when I started lifting for 4 years naturally, and it became more dramatic when I found out I had rather high total testosterone but low free T. So I said Screw it and injected TRT + other androgens. It's all pretty wide and squared now, it used to be long face with puffy cheeks ha. Real skinny baby face.

Definitely much more proportional, although I reckon women dig the skinny face. Someone like Jeff Seid has a great squared jaw + skinny cheeks.

So like one of the first answers say, it's unfortunately very dependent on a healthy teenagehood which I didn't get. But exogenous testosterone and/or other hormonal supplements can fix a lot of issues past puberty.
 

Prosper

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in fact according to research women are ore attracted to guys with a long face, if the space between the eyes and the chin is at least 2/3.
That is because strong chin/lower third is attractive and will therefore make it seem like long face in itself must be an attractive quality. In general facial width & length refers to the rectangular area from eyes to lips and from one zygomatic to the other. Either way, maxilla plays a significant factor in this equation, because in its ideal position it allows the mandible to project forward and zygos to flare out, both of which contribute to the attractive characteristics you're talking about.
 

AretnaP

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What do you mean by "proper" oral posture? The biological design of the mouth or an arbitrary idea? Does dr mew derive his ideas from his own research or from that in past?

Also Dr. Mew's face is kind of strange. I see what you mean about "foward" face, but his mouth is not what I would consider attractive, it looks too abnormal. I am beginning to think that the maxilla does not play any signficant role in attractiveness as you submit, in fact according to research women are ore attracted to guys with a long face, if the space between the eyes and the chin is at least 2/3. They apparently prefer smaller foreheads, long chins, and defined jaws/cheekbones but don't care much about "facial width" which is a trait that confers dominance but is not very important because it is only a weak correlation, and likely related to the overall bone density and structure of more androgenic males.
Proper oral posture is: teeth either lightly touching or slightly apart, tongue on roof of mouth.

The maxilla keeps the mandible from going down and back.

This kid got a cat, he had allergies to the cat and in response started breathing through his mouth:
conscious-breathing-mouth-breathing-negative-impact-teeth3.jpg
 

CoolTweetPete

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This is very interesting. I have been taking Vitamin K2 and several other testosterone-increasing hormones (as well as thyroid) for well over a year now and my face has widened significantly based on comparison to old pictures. My face was actually very thin but I held a lot of water around my neck. That has seemingly resolved as well, leaving me with a thin neck, and a wide face.

I can say as well that in that time period, I became much better at talking to women. I used to have a sort of phobia and I would lock up, feeling perceived as quiet and shy. Now I laugh and joke with women, friends and strangers alike all the time. It wasn't like the chemicals just made me good at it, it was more like, I noticed they seemed more comfortable around me and that made me more comfortable around them.

This forum has stumbled across some of the most profound, practically applicable biological science I have ever seen. It never ceases to amaze me. Thank you all so much for constantly adding cool new topics like this one. Cheers @RedStaR
 

CoolTweetPete

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Proper oral posture is: teeth either lightly touching or slightly apart, tongue on roof of mouth.

The maxilla keeps the mandible from going down and back.

This kid got a cat, he had allergies to the cat and in response started breathing through his mouth:
conscious-breathing-mouth-breathing-negative-impact-teeth3.jpg


Wow. That is incredible how much damage was done. Mouth breather can be the punchline of a roast joke, but I'm sure not a lot of people suspect that it is the result of some biological insult like this. I'm sure the CO2 loss from mouth breathing contributed to these changes. I believe Dr. Peat implicated low CO2 in facial edema.

I would have to dig it up, but Dave Asprey (the Bulletproof guy) once had a jaw specialist on, and he talked about peoples jaws falling back excessively and pressing against the trigeminal nerve, which runs inside the face. He claimed this causes elevated levels of the primitive neurotransmitter and pain signalling molecule, substance P.

My jaw seems to have a tendency to drop back on one side only if I'm not paying attention. I have noticed I breath much better when I make an effort to keep my low jaw slightly pushed forward.
 

colby

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Messages
12
I have a recessed maxilla as Dr. Mike Mew calls it.

I have swallowed wrong all my life, I use my cheeks to swallow instead of pressing my tongue upwards on the palate, which is the way you should swallow.

In addition I mouth breath at night and have bruxism. I always try to breath through the nose during the day though when I am awake.

As a result my maxilla has fallen downwards, the actual maxilla has gone downwards and the angle has also gone downwards.

Which has caused my lower jaw to swing downwards and backwards as well, in order for the lower jaw to stay attached to the maxilla at the joint it must move downwards with it.

My upper jaw also suffers from slight crowding - one tooth has flared outwards tremendously.

And I have a pretty bad overbite.

Overall it is not optimal.

I will be making some simple headgear soon, and wearing it for as long as possible every day. I am confident it will change the structure of my face as well as widening the jaw.

Basically it will be a flat material covered in cloth in the shape of my hard palate. Attached to it by glue will be like 4-6 metal wires with hooks on the other end. These hooks will be attached to strong rubber bands, and these rubber bands will then be attached to a non-stretchy wool hat on the top of my head. because there is space between my teeth when the front teeth are aligned, the metal hooks have a space to go through,

The goal is upwards force, outwards force (to expand the palate), and slight forward force. But mostly upwards and outwards. The upwards force should move the maxilla forwards as well.

I don't think having correct tongue posture as an adult will cause the changes we desire. It will help but it won't be enough. At this point we need constant strong force.

I think even in a fully grown adult, regardless of age, facegear would expand the palate. The bones of the skull and face are unlike the long bones, the skull/face bones borders don't stop growing like the long bones do.

Supplements like aspirin and vitamin K might help, but I have no idea how big a difference they would make on their own.

I will post a picture when I make the facegear. It should be extremely cheap, no more then $40, probably far less.

Dr. Mike Mew's work is revolutionary. He puts 99% of dentists to shame. They are so hyperfocused on the smile and making sure the teeth are aligned and look pretty. They seem to have very little idea of the facial bones.

Can you PM me please? I can't message you as your privacy is closed off.
 

VitoScaletta

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2022
Messages
398
Location
Palestine
I have a recessed maxilla as Dr. Mike Mew calls it.

I have swallowed wrong all my life, I use my cheeks to swallow instead of pressing my tongue upwards on the palate, which is the way you should swallow.

In addition I mouth breath at night and have bruxism. I always try to breath through the nose during the day though when I am awake.

As a result my maxilla has fallen downwards, the actual maxilla has gone downwards and the angle has also gone downwards.

Which has caused my lower jaw to swing downwards and backwards as well, in order for the lower jaw to stay attached to the maxilla at the joint it must move downwards with it.

My upper jaw also suffers from slight crowding - one tooth has flared outwards tremendously.

And I have a pretty bad overbite.

Overall it is not optimal.

I will be making some simple headgear soon, and wearing it for as long as possible every day. I am confident it will change the structure of my face as well as widening the jaw.

Basically it will be a flat material covered in cloth in the shape of my hard palate. Attached to it by glue will be like 4-6 metal wires with hooks on the other end. These hooks will be attached to strong rubber bands, and these rubber bands will then be attached to a non-stretchy wool hat on the top of my head. because there is space between my teeth when the front teeth are aligned, the metal hooks have a space to go through,

The goal is upwards force, outwards force (to expand the palate), and slight forward force. But mostly upwards and outwards. The upwards force should move the maxilla forwards as well.

I don't think having correct tongue posture as an adult will cause the changes we desire. It will help but it won't be enough. At this point we need constant strong force.

I think even in a fully grown adult, regardless of age, facegear would expand the palate. The bones of the skull and face are unlike the long bones, the skull/face bones borders don't stop growing like the long bones do.

Supplements like aspirin and vitamin K might help, but I have no idea how big a difference they would make on their own.

I will post a picture when I make the facegear. It should be extremely cheap, no more then $40, probably far less.

Dr. Mike Mew's work is revolutionary. He puts 99% of dentists to shame. They are so hyperfocused on the smile and making sure the teeth are aligned and look pretty. They seem to have very little idea of the facial bones.
Any updates?
Thanks.
 

steel_reserve

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2016
Messages
222
Not @BigYellowLemon but mewing never felt natural. Then I started taking oxidal. At night I would wake up with my mid tongue pushing up and forward on my front palate.

Separately, progesterone had similar but less intense effects in my sleep.
 

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