Joe Rogan Carnivore Diet Update

[schultz]

I would like to point out to all the people who think the carnivore diet must be synonymous with zero carbohydrate that shellfish tends to have carbohydrates. For example, eastern oysters have more carbohydrates than protein. Fresh meat has carbohydrates as well. If an animal is frozen soon after it is killed then the glycogen will not breakdown. Salting the meat will also help slow/prevent the glycogen breakdown. The Inuit of course live in a very cold climate so I imagine their fresh kills would soon freeze and maintain a large part of their carbohydrate content. It ain't sitting on the grocery store shelf for a couple weeks, that's for sure. Fresh liver would have quite a bit of carbohydrate in it. The inuit also consumed parts of the animal that "grocery store carnivores" probably don't eat, like endocrine glands, brain, etc. which would provide hormones.

It is estimated that the Inuit got as much as 15-20% of their diet as carbohydrates.

Carbs (not Meat) Were Crucial Factor For Developing Big Brains

Other important points are that the inuit consumed seafood as well. Whale muscle takes significantly longer to go through rigor mortis than something like a cow, so its glycogen content would be present much longer after its death, especially in a cold environment. This may have something to do with a unique metabolism that differs a bit to humans, probably having to do with diving. These types of diving mammals have increased glycogen stores compared to land mammals.

I found these two articles that were pretty interesting, and explain things a lot better than I have:

Eating raw marine mammals isn’t the same as eating cooked land mammals « Isegoria

Inuit cuisine explained

Sounds like a copper deficiency. Not much copper in that carnivore diet (unless he is eating liver).

What about shellfish?

 

[Vinny]

After getting reminded of the carnivore diet day in and day out on social media with Joes success, I decided to give it another try.

Joe Rogan on Instagram: “Carnivore diet update: lost 12 pounds, feel amazing. Lots of aches and pains went away, and I have improvements in my vitiligo. I’m…”

The last time I tried it I was eating lots of beef and my energy wasn't great. This time I eat various types of meat....beef, pork, duck, chicken whatever comes to mind.

Just a couple of days in and my eye floaters are all gone.
Itchy scalp is gone.
Mental clarity is tremendous.
Energy is good and stable.

Interesting!
For how long are you planning to keep it and will you create a thread about that?

 

[Vinny]

I would like to point out to all the people who think the carnivore diet must be synonymous with zero carbohydrate that shellfish tends to have carbohydrates. For example, eastern oysters have more carbohydrates than protein. Fresh meat has carbohydrates as well. If an animal is frozen soon after it is killed then the glycogen will not breakdown. Salting the meat will also help slow/prevent the glycogen breakdown. The Inuit of course live in a very cold climate so I imagine their fresh kills would soon freeze and maintain a large part of their carbohydrate content. It ain't sitting on the grocery store shelf for a couple weeks, that's for sure. Fresh liver would have quite a bit of carbohydrate in it. The inuit also consumed parts of the animal that "grocery store carnivores" probably don't eat, like endocrine glands, brain, etc. which would provide hormones.

It is estimated that the Inuit got as much as 15-20% of their diet as carbohydrates.

Carbs (not Meat) Were Crucial Factor For Developing Big Brains

Other important points are that the inuit consumed seafood as well. Whale muscle takes significantly longer to go through rigor mortis than something like a cow, so its glycogen content would be present much longer after its death, especially in a cold environment. This may have something to do with a unique metabolism that differs a bit to humans, probably having to do with diving. These types of diving mammals have increased glycogen stores compared to land mammals.

I found these two articles that were pretty interesting, and explain things a lot better than I have:

Eating raw marine mammals isn’t the same as eating cooked land mammals « Isegoria

Inuit cuisine explained

Good points!

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I would like to point out to all the people who think the carnivore diet must be synonymous with zero carbohydrate that shellfish tends to have carbohydrates. For example, eastern oysters have more carbohydrates than protein. Fresh meat has carbohydrates as well. If an animal is frozen soon after it is killed then the glycogen will not breakdown. Salting the meat will also help slow/prevent the glycogen breakdown. The Inuit of course live in a very cold climate so I imagine their fresh kills would soon freeze and maintain a large part of their carbohydrate content. It ain't sitting on the grocery store shelf for a couple weeks, that's for sure. Fresh liver would have quite a bit of carbohydrate in it. The inuit also consumed parts of the animal that "grocery store carnivores" probably don't eat, like endocrine glands, brain, etc. which would provide hormones.

It is estimated that the Inuit got as much as 15-20% of their diet as carbohydrates.

Carbs (not Meat) Were Crucial Factor For Developing Big Brains

Other important points are that the inuit consumed seafood as well. Whale muscle takes significantly longer to go through rigor mortis than something like a cow, so its glycogen content would be present much longer after its death, especially in a cold environment. This may have something to do with a unique metabolism that differs a bit to humans, probably having to do with diving. These types of diving mammals have increased glycogen stores compared to land mammals.

I found these two articles that were pretty interesting, and explain things a lot better than I have:

Eating raw marine mammals isn’t the same as eating cooked land mammals « Isegoria

Inuit cuisine explained



What about shellfish?

Interesting.

I saw that the muscles of a cow have little glycogen when fresh( only about 6 grams per pound, if I recall correctly). The Plains Indians were eating mostly bison, right?

Indeed, carnivore doesn't mean zero carb.

 

[Waynish]

Great, and if you experience any problems, then just supplement some meth. At least that's what JP is in rehab for

 

[thomas00]

 

[schultz]

Interesting.

I saw that the muscles of a cow have little glycogen when fresh( only about 6 grams per pound, if I recall correctly). The Plains Indians were eating mostly bison, right?

Indeed, carnivore doesn't mean zero carb.

I never really thought about the amount of glycogen in a ruminant animal. I would be interested in seeing that data though. I know ruminant animals have sort of a wacky metabolic setup and I think they easily go into ketosis. When they consume carbohydrates I believe (unless I am mistaken) that most of the sugars are turned into fat by the bacteria in their stomachs. I believe they utilize a lot of short chains fats, probably turning some of them back into sugar. It would make sense then that they would have less glycogen stored...

 

[Blossom]

On cronometer I’ve seen some steaks show 2% carbs and some show 0%.

 

[Tenacity]

Cronometer shows the glycogen content of liver at least.

 

[tankasnowgod]

It's really interesting how Joe's belly is so much flatter. Shawn Baker said that it was visceral fat, but isn't it more likely that it was water retention? It improved a lot compared to how he was before.

I'm not totally convinced that what we call "visceral fat" is fat at all. I suspect a lot of it might be inflammation and edema. And for the parts that are "fat," I also think it's possible that those fat cells are inflamed as well. I wrote about it here a while ago-

Gut Inflammation As The Driver Of Visceral Fat And Fatty Liver

 

[Samya]

I can see why people do this diet. Something that a ton of people say while they're carnivore is the lack of bloating, which some people have had for a long time. You really can't blame someone for looking for relief, especially from digestive issues. I myself have been thinking about doing it for a while, but I'm afraid that I'll end hurting myself in the long run, due to less CO2, less thyroid hormone, more ammonia due to gluconeogenesis( and ammonia needs CO2 to turn into urea). I guess that's all that I'm worried about when it comes to a carnivore diet. Otherwise, it seems awesome. Stefansson did this diet for a long time and, as @Wichway? said, he remained healthy, and there are people who have eaten like this for years and are fine. Groups of people like the Inuit have eaten like this for generations too, although there is the confounding factor of big amounts of omega-3 consumption, which may account for some bad things they were suffering from, such as looking older than they really are. The Mongolians also eat basically meat, meat fat and milk, right? Not zero carb, but not high carb either. They seem healthy, although I'm open to evidence of the contrary.

I'm probably gonna try it one day, honestly, to see how I feel on it.

I've come across this point about aged appearance in a couple of Danny's videos. When I was researching zerocarb/carnivore Stefansson did report that the Inuit looked older but only on their faces, which are exposed to very cold temperatures year round, he also commented that their bodies looked younger than their ages.

I'm not advocating zerocarb by any means, I have my own reasons for abandoning that woe and couldn't recommend it. I'm still open minded though and not convinced of anything.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I've come across this point about aged appearance in a couple of Danny's videos. When I was researching zerocarb/carnivore Stefansson did report that the Inuit looked older but only on their faces, which are exposed to very cold temperatures year round, he also commented that their bodies looked younger than their ages.

I'm not advocating zerocarb by any means, I have my own reasons for abandoning that woe and couldn't recommend it. I'm still open minded though and not convinced of anything.

Interesting, thanks!

I'm not totally convinced that what we call "visceral fat" is fat at all. I suspect a lot of it might be inflammation and edema. And for the parts that are "fat," I also think it's possible that those fat cells are inflamed as well. I wrote about it here a while ago-

Gut Inflammation As The Driver Of Visceral Fat And Fatty Liver

I had that idea in mind when I wrote my comment :). Very nice thread.

The speed at which people lose belly size by just eating less inflammatory foods seems to point to water loss, since it happens so fast.

I never really thought about the amount of glycogen in a ruminant animal. I would be interested in seeing that data though. I know ruminant animals have sort of a wacky metabolic setup and I think they easily go into ketosis. When they consume carbohydrates I believe (unless I am mistaken) that most of the sugars are turned into fat by the bacteria in their stomachs. I believe they utilize a lot of short chains fats, probably turning some of them back into sugar. It would make sense then that they would have less glycogen stored...

I heard about that. Indeed, lots of short chain, saturated fats for energy.

I can't seem to find the site where I got that beef muscle glycogen info from. On wikipedia, it is said that the muscles are only 1 to 2 percent glycogen, so 1kg of meat would have only 10 to 20 grams of carbs when very fresh. I would like to see some more accurate data on this too though.

 

[schultz]

I can't seem to find the site where I got that beef muscle glycogen info from. On wikipedia, it is said that the muscles are only 1 to 2 percent glycogen, so 1kg of meat would have only 10 to 20 grams of carbs when very fresh. I would like to see some more accurate data on this too though.

I found a book that also said 1 to 2% glycogen in the muscle of ruminant animals. The liver on the other hand has closer to 6-10% glycogen (as far as I know). I really would like to see the values of whales still, as a couple of articles on the internet claim they have increased glycogen stores. One article even claimed they stored glycogen in their blubber. I can't find any studies on this though. I was thinking about it and realized glycogen storage is actually an expensive thing for animals as glycogen supplies less energy for the weight that fat does (obviously). On top of that, it is said 3 parts of water are stored with 1 part of glycogen. That would mean 4g of weight for 4 calories (1g glycogen, 3g water) whereas fat is 1g of weight for 9 calories. If a human stored massive amounts of glycogen he would become overly heavy and it would be counter-productive. However, animals that live in the water would not have this problem, so it is reasonable to assume they may store larger amounts of carbohydrate. It may even help with diving as it could mean less resistance while diving at greater depths (fat is buoyant).

I got the idea of glycogen being heavy from this vetrinary textbook, which says...

"Approximately 65% of glycogen is water. Conversely, triglyceride, the major storage form of fat, is anhydrous and hydro-phobic, thus making it lighter than glycogen (see Chapters 53 and 57). If a dog stored the same amount of glycogen as it does fat, it would be nearly twice as heavy, and its mobility would be severely reduced. For this and several other reasons, migrating birds also store potential energy primarily as fat."

Ruminant muscle thus seems like an insignificant source of carbohydrate, especially considering the potential breakdown of glycogen post-mortem, or even the breakdown of glycogen while the animal is running away (running away, and stress in general, would deplete glycogen). Also the season would also affect glycogen as less glycogen is stored in the colder months apparently (I got all of this info from a book aptly entitled "Meat")

I think we focus too much on the muscle of the animal though, and from our modern perspective we tend to think of the muscle as the edible part of the animal. A passage from the Weston Price book comes to mind...

"I found the Indians putting great emphasis upon the eating of the organs of the animals, including the wall of parts of the digestive tract. Much of the muscle meat of the animals was fed to the dogs."

So these people were not even consuming much of the muscle meat. Apparently that's dog food lol. And yet that's the only part of the animal most modern people consume. Though I imagine they would eat the muscle if they were short on food.

 

[methylenewhite]

So these people were not even consuming much of the muscle meat. Apparently that's dog food lol. And yet that's the only part of the animal most modern people consume. Though I imagine they would eat the muscle if they were short on food.

Could be just a cultural believe and nothing to do with reality. IMO trying find patterns and explain trad cultural beliefs system from biochem point of view is pointless. It's like saying that cow has become sacred animal in India because it's milk is the only source of B12 for vegetarian part of population.

 

[schultz]

Could be just a cultural believe and nothing to do with reality. IMO trying find patterns and explain trad cultural beliefs system from biochem point of view is pointless. It's like saying that cow has become sacred animal in India because it's milk is the only source of B12 for vegetarian part of population.

I wasn't trying to make any hard point with that, just thought it was interesting. If I was making a point it was more along the lines of that most modern people doing a 'carnivore' diet consume almost entirely muscle meat. But clearly they recognized that the organs were either more beneficial or tasted better, or presumably they would have thrown the liver to the dogs and consumed the muscles.

Cows give milk so that's a good reason not to kill them as milk is healthier than meat and you don't need to work hard to get it or even have refrigeration. It really is an amazing thing from a survival point of view being able to have some cows that eat useless grass and turn it into something like milk than you can actually harvest from the animal daily without having to kill it. Freaking amazing.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I found a book that also said 1 to 2% glycogen in the muscle of ruminant animals. The liver on the other hand has closer to 6-10% glycogen (as far as I know). I really would like to see the values of whales still, as a couple of articles on the internet claim they have increased glycogen stores. One article even claimed they stored glycogen in their blubber. I can't find any studies on this though. I was thinking about it and realized glycogen storage is actually an expensive thing for animals as glycogen supplies less energy for the weight that fat does (obviously). On top of that, it is said 3 parts of water are stored with 1 part of glycogen. That would mean 4g of weight for 4 calories (1g glycogen, 3g water) whereas fat is 1g of weight for 9 calories. If a human stored massive amounts of glycogen he would become overly heavy and it would be counter-productive. However, animals that live in the water would not have this problem, so it is reasonable to assume they may store larger amounts of carbohydrate. It may even help with diving as it could mean less resistance while diving at greater depths (fat is buoyant).

I got the idea of glycogen being heavy from this vetrinary textbook, which says...

"Approximately 65% of glycogen is water. Conversely, triglyceride, the major storage form of fat, is anhydrous and hydro-phobic, thus making it lighter than glycogen (see Chapters 53 and 57). If a dog stored the same amount of glycogen as it does fat, it would be nearly twice as heavy, and its mobility would be severely reduced. For this and several other reasons, migrating birds also store potential energy primarily as fat."

Ruminant muscle thus seems like an insignificant source of carbohydrate, especially considering the potential breakdown of glycogen post-mortem, or even the breakdown of glycogen while the animal is running away (running away, and stress in general, would deplete glycogen). Also the season would also affect glycogen as less glycogen is stored in the colder months apparently (I got all of this info from a book aptly entitled "Meat")

I think we focus too much on the muscle of the animal though, and from our modern perspective we tend to think of the muscle as the edible part of the animal. A passage from the Weston Price book comes to mind...

"I found the Indians putting great emphasis upon the eating of the organs of the animals, including the wall of parts of the digestive tract. Much of the muscle meat of the animals was fed to the dogs."

So these people were not even consuming much of the muscle meat. Apparently that's dog food lol. And yet that's the only part of the animal most modern people consume. Though I imagine they would eat the muscle if they were short on food.

Yeah, liver has way more glycogen than the muscles.

I too didn't find any studies on how much carbs there is in those animals from cold climates. Without knowing that, it seems weird that they claim that the Inuit were consuming 20% of their calories from carbs. It could be more or less than that.

I've read some pages of that "Meat" book and I'm enjoying it. Seems easy to read, and talks about things that I've heard in the carnivore community as well. Thanks for the link.

I agree that people nowadays don't eat much liver, or kidneys, or brain or even heart anymore. They just focus on stakes. It seems like many people do fine on just stake, but I think it's unanimously accepted that organ meats are more dense in nutrition than muscle meats( more choline, more vitamin B2, more vitamin A, more biotin, etc.). Also, I've heard that the internal organs of an animal that was raised commercially( in a feedlot operation, with lots of grains with pesticides) tend to accumulate toxins more easily than the muscles. Perhaps that's one reason why people don't eat those anymore? Maybe they can taste something off in those products. That certainly happens with liver. It tastes bitter the longer it is stored, and comeercial liver may taste off even when relatively fresh. I feel like people would be more open to organs if they were getting very high quality liver, kidneys etc. rather than the low quality stuff they find in the supermarket.

I find that quote from Weston Price shows how different indigenous groups have sometimes opposite ways of doing things. There is an interview of Vilhjalmur Stefansson where he says that, in one group of Inuit, they didn't care for organ meats, and used to just give them to the dogs. Now, it's important to note that other indigenous groups( among them, other Inuits groups too, if I recall correctly) did show a preference for organs, especially the liver.

He talks about it at 13:00 in this video:

 

[tara]

Could be just a cultural believe and nothing to do with reality. IMO trying find patterns and explain trad cultural beliefs system from biochem point of view is pointless. It's like saying that cow has become sacred animal in India because it's milk is the only source of B12 for vegetarian part of population.

There are more ways that cattle have supported sustainable agriculture and society. Doesn't seem far-fetched to me that there could be practical roots to these traditional practices.

Cows give milk so that's a good reason not to kill them as milk is healthier than meat and you don't need to work hard to get it or even have refrigeration. It really is an amazing thing from a survival point of view being able to have some cows that eat useless grass and turn it into something like milk than you can actually harvest from the animal daily without having to kill it. Freaking amazing.

+1
They also do good things for the soil that support other agriculture.

 

[sebastian_r]

So three weeks into the carnivore diet.

Getting unreal results.

- Lost 5kg without even trying. Guess roughly 3-4kg of that was water
- Eye floaters gone
- Itchy skin gone
- Eyesight better
- Stable energy all day, doesn't matter if its 8am or 9pm
- Unreal productivity. My business partner can hardly believe what is going on. In one day I accomplish more output than in 3 days before going carnivore.
- Mental clarity that I haven't experienced in 10+ years
- My body temperature and puls are higher!!!

Finally getting all the results I was promised from peating but never got.

Downside: Athletic performance not as good as with carbs.

Nutrition now: Butter, cheese, egg yolks, meat. Maybe 30-40% of calories from meat

Nutrition before: same nutrition as above but with fruits and starch.

Unless problems are showing up I will continue eating like this indefinite. I haven't felt this good in a long time.

 

[Vinny]

So three weeks into the carnivore diet.

Getting unreal results.

- Lost 5kg without even trying. Guess roughly 3-4kg of that was water
- Eye floaters gone
- Itchy skin gone
- Eyesight better
- Stable energy all day, doesn't matter if its 8am or 9pm
- Unreal productivity. My business partner can hardly believe what is going on. In one day I accomplish more output than in 3 days before going carnivore.
- Mental clarity that I haven't experienced in 10+ years
- My body temperature and puls are higher!!!

Finally getting all the results I was promised from peating but never got.

Downside: Athletic performance not as good as with carbs.

Nutrition now: Butter, cheese, egg yolks, meat. Maybe 30-40% of calories from meat

Nutrition before: same nutrition as above but with fruits and starch.

Unless problems are showing up I will continue eating like this indefinite. I haven't felt this good in a long time.

Wow! Congrats mate! Keep post, pls!

 

[Vinny]

So three weeks into the carnivore diet.

Getting unreal results.

- Lost 5kg without even trying. Guess roughly 3-4kg of that was water
- Eye floaters gone
- Itchy skin gone
- Eyesight better
- Stable energy all day, doesn't matter if its 8am or 9pm
- Unreal productivity. My business partner can hardly believe what is going on. In one day I accomplish more output than in 3 days before going carnivore.
- Mental clarity that I haven't experienced in 10+ years
- My body temperature and puls are higher!!!

Finally getting all the results I was promised from peating but never got.

Downside: Athletic performance not as good as with carbs.

Nutrition now: Butter, cheese, egg yolks, meat. Maybe 30-40% of calories from meat

Nutrition before: same nutrition as above but with fruits and starch.

Unless problems are showing up I will continue eating like this indefinite. I haven't felt this good in a long time.

How,s ur elimination btw? Frequency, composition...?