Is Peat Wrong After All? The Lyon Heart Study

[tankasnowgod]

I can agree with most of what you said, if not all.
Yes more vitamins in the experimental group, less overall Pufa (but a ratio pufa/safa less favorable and Ray peat says That the ratio is what matters) and yes they, haven't tested all that versus coconut oil group.

But again, Ray peat thinks That pufa are ..."toxic" -his own terms.

So imagine before the study we have:

-american heart association "Omega 6 prevent heart diseases"
-Ray peat "all pufa are toxic"
- french guys "well, not all pufa are created equal, we eat too much Omega 6. We think That it causes heart attacks and cancers. A good way to solve the problem is to remove lot of Omega 6 and add a bit Omega 3"

In a peat paradigm nothing Would happen, minor changes. In the french paradigm a lot of things Would change. Guess what happens?

Ray Peat says PUFA are toxic, you provide a study that shows the group that had both lower stored and dietary PUFA had better survival and health outcomes, and you are somehow using this to say he is wrong?

All because you are caught up in a dietary ratio of PUFA to SFA (which was quite similar between both groups, both well under 1, which the researchers themselves identified as the area that becomes problematic, and was an estimate anyway), not the body ratio of PUFA to SFA.

 

[Constatine]

Thank you xisca :)

Yes, may be this diet is fine despite the canola oil... and may be not. If so, the canola oil "toxicty" seems to be quite weak here... but why dont take seriously the begining hypothesis of the authors, that a good ratio Omega 3/6 is a key factor in health?
Is that more irrelevant that to worry about pufa content in berries (i dont say you are?
I remember a famous quote. What is the specificity of a great idea in science? You can explain a lot with little. Regarding the Omega3/6 in reasonable amount (aka not that much) you can explain a lot: why people as differents as japanese and the Méditeranean whose eat in opposite way are healthy (low pufa, good ratio).

And Yes a rct study olive oil vs coconut oil vs canola oil would be great.

Thank you Again for you post!

Canola oil and other vegetable oils can act like statins and interfere with the activity of vitamin k in the body. It also has detrimental effects on testosterone production: https://www.karger.com/?DOI=10.1159/000446704 . This study also states such oils can cause "cerebral bleeding, kidney injury, DM, and CVD". It also claims that canola oil shorted survival times in rats.

I must say the Mediterranean diet is overall pretty healthy. Much of its health benefits simply come from its variety of nutrient packed foods.

 

[Crazycoco]

I must say the Mediterranean diet is overall pretty healthy. Much of its health benefits simply come from its variety of nutrient packed foods.

Hi Constantine thank you for the study and your insights :).
So first of all ,as the paper of your study says "Key Messages: To date, no randomized controlled trials (RCTs) have been performed to prove the above interpretation." so... Far less good study That the Lyon one. Keep in mind That i think they are mostly right : it's necessary to reduce the overall pufa in our societies.

Regarding the "variety of nutrient packed foods" argument, two things:

- if you say so, you are saying That the real problem is not the pufa intake but the nutrient intake. It means That pufa are not dangerous, just poor overall nutrition. Well, different story here.

- my second point here is, Franky the differences of overall pufa in the two groups was weak. The difference of the ratio omega 6/3, huge. The results: huge again. Why dont take that ratio seriously?

-Again is it possible to contact Ray peat about this study?

Thank you all!

 

[Crazycoco]

Just another thing, not necessarly a scientific one, just my opinion here.

-So, i think the milk of well nourished cows is healthier that the milk of grain-fed cows.

-Take two cows: grass fed one gamboling in the mountain and grain fed one suffuring in a factory farm.

-Then analyze the composition of the two milk.

-milk of grain fed cow: more Omega 6 more saturated fats

-milk grass fed cow: a bit less saturated fats less Omega 6 more Omega 3, better ratio

-does the nature has nothing to teach about my obsessive ******* ratio?! ahah

 

[X3CyO]

Thank you very much X3 Cyo, this is the kind of insight that i wanted by writing my post.
I can agree with you. But dont you find the omega3/ omega 6 ratio is an important one, as the french think?
My general idea is like ray peat said: keep pufa very low but i would argue that omega 3/6 ratio is still important and probably protective. What do you think?

Rays concept is that because pufa is unstable to contain in the body from "conventional" sources, that it overloads the body and that its more reasonable to instead create it in the small amounts needed by the body in the moment in more stable and effective forms such as meadic acid and nervonic acid.

It sounds like you subscribe to a more chris masterjohn approach.

I personally havent conciously seeked out Omega fatty acids since 2014 and my health has improved drastically from then.

I think its a farce personally. Sea animals/lots o Seeds/lots o Nuts, and the concentrated oils from these sources are pushed and since that mimics the opposite of what I believe in, which I stated before, and these are all "niche" areas in the market which are currently as of late being capitalized on before the sea turns radioactive and the people realize that seeds dont like to be eaten as food.

Thats just what ive concluded.
Good luck on your journey and stay level headed.

 

[Crazycoco]

Thank you X3Cyo!

I personally havent conciously seeked out Omega fatty acids since 2014 and my health has improved drastically from then.

I think That every person who dramatically remove the omega 6 and reduce the overall pufa intake (with adequat nutrient intake) will be healthier.

But i still think (lol obsessive guy) That every person who do that and raises is ratio Omega6/3 in favorable way (just by drinking grass fed cow milk or eating grass fed cow cheese or pastured eggs) will be even more healthy until a RCT show me the opposit or somebody prove me i'm wrong. (That or may be a Ray peat reply ahah)

 

[Crazycoco]

[QUOTE="ecstatichamster, post: 258396, member: 3389"
There can be great discussions nevertheless, as this thread attests, but the basic study is idiotic.I have seen 100 studies like this and they are never revealing .[/QUOTE]

Do you mean, hundred of studies who compare hundred of patients with previous heart attack assigned to two different diets and show a decrease mortality by 70%, 4 years later in RCT peer reviewed?

show it, i'm curious

 

[X3CyO]

Thank you X3Cyo!


I think That every person who dramatically remove the omega 6 and reduce the overall pufa intake (with adequat nutrient intake) will be healthier.

But i still think (lol obsessive guy) That every person who do that and raises is ratio Omega6/3 in favorable way (just by drinking grass fed cow milk or eating grass fed cow cheese or pastured eggs) will be even more healthy until a RCT show me the opposit or somebody prove me i'm wrong. (That or may be a Ray peat reply ahah)

Ohhh.


actually. i take what i said back to an extent.

To plug it back into my first example, since omega 6 is found more abundantly in seeds and nuts versus omega 3 in greens, I can agree that its potentially an indicator of good quality likewise then in corresponding animal products, like the sat/mufa/pufa ratio.

Id say so long as it isnt ingested in a rancid, concentrated form, with adequate vitamin e in ones diet, which vegetables tend to have naturally in great ratio to pufa, then it should be fine. Animal sources dont tend to have the vitamin e, but coingestion of a good ratio of fats should keep it stable in the body or change it id imagine.

All Ive heard in this regard is that ala recycles vitamin e, and eating veg improved my health which in particular has both.

 

[Xisca]

-Ray peat "all pufa are toxic"
- french guys "well, not all pufa are created equal, we eat too much Omega 6. We think That it causes heart attacks and cancers. A good way to solve the problem is to remove lot of Omega 6 and add a bit Omega 3"

Ho I get your point, may be? You think like RP, but not to the point of saying all PUFAs are toxic?
Maybe they are toxic, but not poisons either, and maybe we can conclude that when we take something toxic, our body is very prone to adaptation, and finds a way to tamper the toxicity?
That is why @tankasnowgod says that one is better than the other, but the better there is not the best.
On the other hand, change being a stress and not all people being used to high fructose, keeping some starch and legumes could have been better for most people than doing a big sudden change?
Therefore, I was also talking before about cultural habits and the link to local produced foods...

I know for long that the ratio omega 3 and 6 is found to be important, since they found the problems coming from om6. But they are so reluctant to see that it might be wrong that satfats are bad? And what if they are good? Well, northern frenches were more than happy with butter! And with buckweat in Bretany, and all those good apples...

 

[Crazycoco]

Hi xisca:) Thanks for your post.
We have to explain the dramatically decrease of heart diseases and cancers after the experimentation. For the author of the studies and Many Leading expert the ratio is the main factor even though it' s not the only one. Polyphenol of olive oil seems to be very important.


I dont believe to the antioxydant theories personnally because the american heart association diet have a decent supply, although loaded With Omega 6 Pufa and it doesnt protect the patient against the toxic effect of the Omega 6.
But antioxydant with Omega 3 fat seems here to be highly protective.

I think, like the authors of the study, that Omega 6 oil are the devil and that too much Omega 3 from Marine sources could be very problematic for the reason that ray peat have mentioned.

My main point is: May be ray peat have underestimate the powerful effect of the ratio and the "additional problems" are weak when the question is about saving lives.

It doesnt mean that peat is not a great scientist with great insights in every field of nutrition.

The best thing to do is to ask him about this study.

Regarding the saturated fats question the author of the study think they are fine ... If you drink wine with it or regularly Ahah. I dont think they are necessarly right about SAFA.
At the begining of the study they wanted to add more wine to the experimental group but they didnt have the authorization. For mainstream scientists give olive oil plus wine to patient with cardiovasculaire disease was too "out of the limits" Ahaha

 

[Xisca]

But i still think (lol obsessive guy) That every person who do that and raises is ratio Omega6/3 in favorable way (just by drinking grass fed cow milk or eating grass fed cow cheese or pastured eggs) will be even more healthy until a RCT show me the opposit or somebody prove me i'm wrong. (That or may be a Ray peat reply ahah)

Yes it was said before by someone sorry don't remember who, that WHEN you HAVE TO eat higher pufa, THEN the ratio is important.
When satfats are eaten, the ratio is less important....

So your point is to ask Peat if the ratio is also important when you have a small intake of PUFA;
and if he thinks that omega 3 that is NOT form fish is the bast to balance the little amount of omega6 we still have...

I do not know what is the % of 3 to 6 in milk? And in animal fats, according to how they are fed?

And a traditional mediterranean diet has no canola but olive. And they use goat milk... They also have almonds which is high in O6, but they eat the whole almond, and do not use the extracted oil... And grains were never used as a stapple ALL year long when it was possible to get fruits. Grains were used much more when fruits were not available.

I live in a mediterranean place where the original fruit was ONLY figs. Stapple was grains, but it was toasted, same as it is done in Tibet, which makes DEXTRINE. Plus banish part of the phytic acid, lectins or whatever. But the overall stapple have always been GOATS, especially milk and cheese.

Go to Morrocco: goats, olive trees, figs. Of course couscous from wheat and chickpeas!

 

[Crazycoco]

"I do not know what is the % of 3 to 6 in milk? And in animal fats, according to how they are fed?"

Grass fed cows compare to grain fed ones : concentration of Omega 3 increases by 62% concentration of Omega 6 decrease by 30% in grass fed cows...

Organic Production Enhances Milk Nutritional Quality by Shifting Fatty Acid Composition: A United States–Wide, 18-Month Study

Ratio right again

 

[ecstatichamster]

[QUOTE="ecstatichamster, post: 258396, member: 3389"
There can be great discussions nevertheless, as this thread attests, but the basic study is idiotic.I have seen 100 studies like this and they are never revealing .

Do you mean, hundred of studies who compare hundred of patients with previous heart attack assigned to two different diets and show a decrease mortality by 70%, 4 years later in RCT peer reviewed?

show it, i'm curious[/QUOTE]

These types of studies are too numerous to even list. Studies of and cohorts who write down in a food diary what they've been eating and supposedly show magical results after a few years. could be eating or taking medication, it's all the same. The Mediterranean diet has been a big fad for a while in these kinds of studies.

Nothing special about this one. The entire methodology is so deficient that you can't rely on it for anything

 

[Mary Pruter]

I'm sticking with my coconut oil, love it, use it in small amounts and it is much better for you!

In my own personal opinion canola oil is horrible, to me it's right up there with vegetable oil.

 

[ecstatichamster]

okay. I'll point out just a few methodological disaster areas that is in THIS study, the Lyon study.

Red flag #1 - 302 experimental and 303 controls were started, but only 219 and 204 were studied at the 46 month mark.

Red flag #2 - the study was stopped supposedly because of the huge beneficial results in the original cohort. This is nonsense. Just when the results longterm may be most telling, they stop the study.

The reasons to stop a study are really either futility, or gross morbidity or mortality that is obvious in the experimental group. The other reasons to stop a study are to show more favorable results, but this is a "bad" reason.

Red flag #3 - they never assessed the control group's diet. WTF?

Red flag #4 - they only got the control group's diet at the conclusion of the study. Huh? "Thus it is not clear whether any dietary changes were made by the control group."

Red flag #5 - Only 83 of the experiment and 144 of the 302 randomized in the study reported dietary data. So the researchers got to pick and choose. Not clear why such a low number reported what they were eating, but isn't this fairly relevant, LOL?

These are huge holes that render this study worthless and all such studies are worthless.

---

Now, to get the prejudices out of the way, read the researchers' conclusions. Just patent nonsense.

The findings from the Lyon Diet Heart Study illustrate the potential importance of a dietary pattern that emphasizes fruits, vegetables, breads and cereals, and fish, as well as α-linolenic acid within the context of a Step I diet.

Really?

It would be short-sighted to not recognize the enormous public health benefit that this diet could confer with adoption by the population-at-large if the findings are confirmed. Thus, the task at hand is to corroborate the results of the Lyon Diet Heart Study in both primary and secondary prevention models as expediently as possible and verify, as would be expected, that this dietary pattern is safe. In the meantime, we should take advantage of the possible opportunity to dramatically lower CVD risk in the population by widely recommending a Step I diet that features a dietary pattern that includes fruits, root vegetables (ie, carrots, turnips, potatoes, onions, radishes), leafy green vegetables, breads and cereals, fish, and foods high in α-linolenic acid such as vegetable oils (ie, flaxseed, canola), vegetable oil products (ie, salad dressing and margarine made with nonhydrogenated oils high in α-linolenic acid), and nuts and seeds (walnuts and flaxseed).

These conclusions are completely unjustified and demonstrate the complete lack of integrity of these researchers and shows clearly that they had an agenda that was anything but "open minded".

 

[Crazycoco]

"These studies are too numerous to even list"

Ahaha really? Thanks you've made my day.

 

[Xisca]

Grass fed cows compare to grain fed ones : concentration of Omega 3 increases by 62% concentration of Omega 6 decrease by 30% in grass fed cows...

Organic Production Enhances Milk Nutritional Quality by Shifting Fatty Acid Composition: A United States–Wide, 18-Month Study

Ratio right again

Pigs and poultry, like humans, have a relatively simple digestive system and absorb FAs in approximately the same proportions as found in their diet. Lipid absorption by cattle and sheep is heavily influenced by rumen microbial activity that hydrogenates (saturates) up to 95% of dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs), making it challenging to increase the PUFA content of ruminant milk or meat. However, increased reliance on fresh herbage in dairy cow diets does elevate the ω-3 content of milk produced
Fish also cannot greatly alter ω-6/ω-3 ratios that are typically dominated by LA and ALA. However, our dietary scenarios show how LA/ALA ratios and presumably ω-6/ω-3 ratios can be improved by changing the types and amounts of dairy fat, and especially by reducing LA intake.

I can tell you that grass and worm fed hens have a yellow fat that makes all people think it is summer butter. Pig fat used to be solid and yellow. Even rabbits can have a yelow fat.

I do not believe RP is wrong but that he is ...not enough right!
I have not read that he advises organic especially, but same as saying 1) best choice are fruits 2) sugar, juices... I think he advises in a way that ALL PEOPLE can find a way to eat the "best possible processed food". Fresh fruits are NOT PROCESSED, sugar and juices ARE. And not everybody can buy organic nor whishes. So, as a goal, he wants Mr and Mrs Evrybody to find a way to eat less bad if not best.

Because if you become stressed by the difficulty to find the best Masai milk in the non existing market... you might trigger your adrenals!

I did not find in the milk study if the SAFA were higher in organic milk.

Conventional dairy products account for about 75% of U.S. CLA consumption [16], and organic production, especially spring pasture, is known to increase CLA levels [18]–[23], [32]. We find an annual average 18% increase.

CLA does not seem to be spoken about very often in this forum, but it seems to be interresting, especially that we can make our own under some conditions, when we have good bugs in our colon.

But again, dairies are important for us to get good ratios, and organic grass fed is VERY important.
And what is the main point? Feed cows as good as we should feed ourselves! No animal should be raised on grains and PUFAs.

If EVEN rumiants cannot escape some changes in their bodies fats, dues to starchy and PUFY food, what's about US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If any study can prove that with a better ratio, they have already improved health, then they should go further and improve health more, by lowering both ω-6 AND ω-3, with the best ratio, this I cannot deny it.

 

[Lianda]

.....

Just by changing diet habits, people reduce heart failures, heart attacks by 70%!

What do you think?

I think that diet research is all going to be flawed- because they leave out variables not related to FOOD: STRESS

Researchers are Morons | Can't Lose Weight and Keep It Off? Eat Less & Exercise More doesn't work!

 

[ecstatichamster]

I think that diet research is all going to be flawed- because they leave out variables not related to FOOD: STRESS

Researchers are Morons | Can't Lose Weight and Keep It Off? Eat Less & Exercise More doesn't work!

I posted above about this whole study which is a piece of propagandistic nonsense.

 

[Crazycoco]

Oh yeah mediteranean diet is a pure non sense Ahah. So funny to read such a lol thing.



Ok contact epidemiologists and ask them what he thinks about the Lyon heart study.
European journal of nutrition controls the alleged biais of the study and found none.

May be you deserve a chair in epidemiology Ahah.i'

"The best evidence on how diet affects people with heart disease comes from the Lyon Diet Heart Study, which found that a Mediterranean-style diet cut heart attacks and deaths by 70% compared with a traditional Heart american association" Walter willet Harvard the propagandist of american heart association diet who have no interest to recognize he was wrong.

Plus control review to control the possible biais

Control of bias in dietary trial to prevent coronary recurrences: The Lyon Diet Heart Study. - PubMed - NCBI


EVERY EPIDEMIOLOGIST recognize That this study was a very important one as perfectly conducted as possible. Every guys interested in nutrition dont contest the relevance
Of the study: from low fat (mcdougall esselstin nutrition facts etc) to low carb. Even Ray peat Would agree with the relavance of the study.

So "propagandistic nonsense" statement regarding the healthiness of a merditerranean diet deserves an empatic...LOL