Is Peat Wrong After All? The Lyon Heart Study

[Mito]

what about a natural food source like acerola powder or amla?

Is there a brand you like?

 

[lollipop]

Is there a brand you like?

Hi @Mito, Not yet there. Have just begun considering adding a small amount (250mg a day). So am now just contemplating using it and which source. Travis might be correct for someone like me, getting it from fruits. I remember @Janelle525 mentioned a brand on FB that looked clean and fairly pure, but I lost the link. Janelle do you have that link?

 

[InChristAlone]

Yes, it's a lady who set out to find the best China made ascorbic acid in bulk. She also has china free lipo C and bulk niacinamide. Vitamin shop
The COA is always changing but she is easy to contact.

 

[lollipop]

Yes, it's a lady who set out to find the best China made ascorbic acid in bulk. She also has china free lipo C and bulk niacinamide. Vitamin shop
The COA is always changing but she is easy to contact.

Thank you @Janelle525

 

[artlange]

That PLUS more favorable omega 3/Omega 6.

Ray suggests is no amount of Omega-3 that is favorable. If you listen to the KMUD radio interviews you will hear Ray talk about how fish oil has been used to make varnish, since it oxidizes so rapidly. How much varnish do you want to eat? And how is that favorable? What evidence do you have that it is OK eat any omega-3?

 

[ecstatichamster]

there are many studies showing deficiency in omega 3 causing problems...BUT...they are on diets that still contain omega 6, with only a handful of studies on ALL EFA deficiencies. And those "all EFA deficiency" studies show Peat is right.

Elevated thromboxane levels in the rat during endotoxic shock: protective effects of imidazole, 13-azaprostanoic acid, or essential fatty acid defi... - PubMed - NCBI

Elevated thromboxane levels in the rat during endotoxic shock: protective effects of imidazole, 13-azaprostanoic acid, or essential fatty acid deficiency
The potential deleterious role of the proaggregatory vasoconstrictor, thromboxane A(2), in endotoxic shock was investigated in rats. Plasma thromboxane A(2) was determined by radioimmunoassay of its stable metabolite thromboxane B(2). After intravenous administration of Salmonella enteritidis endotoxin (20 mg/kg), plasma thromboxane B(2) levels increased from nondetectable levels (<375 pg/ml) in normal control rats to 2,054+/-524 pg/ml (n = 8), within 30 min to 2,071+/-429 at 60 min, and decreased to 1,119+/-319 pg/ml, at 120 min. Plasma levels of prostaglandin E also increased from 146+/-33 pg/ml in normal controls (n = 5) to 2,161+/-606 pg/ml 30 min after endotoxin (n = 5). In contrast to shocked controls, rats pretreated with imidazole, a thromboxane synthetase inhibitor, or essential fatty acid-deficient rats, which are deficient in arachidonate and its metabolites, did not exhibit significant elevations in plasma levels of thromboxane B(2). Imidazole did not however inhibit endotoxin-induced elevations in plasma prostaglandin E. Essential fatty acid deficiency significantly reduced mortality to lethal endotoxic shock. This refractoriness could be duplicated in normal rats pretreated with the fatty acid cyclo-oxygenase inhibitor, indomethacin (10 mg/kg), intravenously 30 min before endotoxin injection. Imidazole (30 mg/kg) administered intraperitoneally 1 h before or intravenously 30 min before endotoxin, also significantly (P < 0.01) reduced mortality from lethal endotoxin shock to 40% compared to a control mortality of 95% at 24 h. Likewise pretreatment with 13-azaprostanoic acid (30 mg/kg), a thromboxane antagonist, reduced mortality from endotoxic shock at 24 h from 100% in control rats to only 50% (P < 0.01). The results suggest that endotoxin induces increased synthesis of thromboxane A(2) that may contribute to the pathogenesis of endotoxic shock.

 

[ecstatichamster]

BRAIN LIPID MODIFICATIONS INDUCED BY ESSENTIAL FATTY ACID DEFICIENCY IN GROWING MALE AND FEMALE RATS

BRAIN LIPID MODIFICATIONS INDUCED BY ESSENTIAL FATTY ACID DEFICIENCY IN GROWING MALE AND FEMALE RATS

the brain contained satisfactory unsaturated fats on its own, even without any dietary EFA.

 

[Mito]

Hi @Mito, Not yet there. Have just begun considering adding a small amount (250mg a day). So am now just contemplating using it and which source. Travis might be correct for someone like me, getting it from fruits. I remember @Janelle525 mentioned a brand on FB that looked clean and fairly pure, but I lost the link. Janelle do you have that link?

Thanks. I see Pure Encapsulations has Acerola but mixed with naringin/rutin/hesperidin.

 

[lollipop]

Thanks. I see Pure Encapsulations has Acerola but mixed with naringin/rutin/hesperidin.

That would be good imo @Mito, they are the bioflavonoids. Pure Encapsulations makes great products. I use them the majority of the time for other than Idealabs.

 

[Travis]

Pauling does recommend quite a bit. Here is a quote:

The amount of ascorbate for patients at high risk should be comparable to the amount of ascorbate our ancestors synthesized in their body before they lost this ability: between 10,000 and 20,000 milligrams per day.

This seems a bit high. I think I remember him saying that an animal our size would be expected to produce ~3–7 grams if allometrically-scaled and extrapolated.

I just used the cronometer and I have only 828.3 milligrams today. This is still 920% of the RDA, but quite a bit short of Pauling's recommendation. I can see a very high-fruit diet delivering about 1½ grams.

I wish I could find out how he arrived at that number. He recommended 2,000 milligrams per day in the '70s: Pauling Recommendation

The amount needed to maximize collagen synthesis should be lower than this. But any additional amount functions as a general antioxidant. I just glanced at a study that showed glutathione-depleted rats were protected from death with additional vitamin C.

And it is known to regenerate vitamin E on the cell membrane, lowering requirements for this vitamin.

And it seems safe in gram amounts. I don't know how much becomes "too much", but Linus Pauling lived to be 93 so it does appear safe in high doses.

After reading a few articles on persorption, I stopped taking any pills with small crystalline particles in them.

Volkheimer, G., and F. H. Schulz. "The phenomenon of persorption." Digestion 1.4 (1968): 213-218.

 

[tankasnowgod]

How much varnish do you want to eat? And how is that favorable?

I only want to eat enough to cause Spontaneous Human Combustion. Apparently, Linseed Oil is highly unstable and highly flammable, and can combust without a spark! Watch!



(Thanks to Travis for first pointing this out)

I suspect that one of Spinal Tap's drummers was drinking Flaxseed Oil by the gallon.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Pauling does recommend quite a bit. Here is a quote:

This seems a bit high. I think I remember him saying that an animal our size would be expected to produce ~3–7 grams if allometrically-scaled and extrapolated.

I just used the cronometer and I have only 828.3 milligrams today. This is still 920% of the RDA, but quite a bit short of Pauling's recommendation. I can see a very high-fruit diet delivering about 1½ grams.

I wish I could find out how he arrived at that number. He recommended 2,000 milligrams per day in the '70s: Pauling Recommendation

The amount needed to maximize collagen synthesis should be lower than this. But any additional amount functions as a general antioxidant. I just glanced at a study that showed glutathione-depleted rats were protected from death with additional vitamin C.

And it is known to regenerate vitamin E on the cell membrane, lowering requirements for this vitamin.

And it seems safe in gram amounts. I don't know how much becomes "too much", but Linus Pauling lived to be 93 so it does appear safe in high doses.

After reading a few articles on persorption, I stopped taking any pills with small crystalline particles in them.

Volkheimer, G., and F. H. Schulz. "The phenomenon of persorption." Digestion 1.4 (1968): 213-218.

What does Ray say about C? Why isn't he for it? Seems only supportive of getting it in food.

 

[Travis]

What does Ray say about C? Why isn't he for it? Seems only supportive of getting it in food.

I don't know. He doesn't seem to mention it much. (I have only read about half of Ray Peat's articles.)

In one of his articles, there is a footnote denoted by an asterisk.

Some insects that have been studied have been found not to require the essential fatty acids. [14]* [...]

*If we followed Linus Pauling's reasoning in determining optimal vitamin C intake, this study of the linoleic acid content of the tissues of an animal which can synthesize it would suggest that we are eating about 100 times more "EFA" than we should.

Ray Peat
He mentions its well-accepted vitamin-E-sparing function:

High levels of vitamin C can protect tissue levels of vitamin E and may indirectly contribute to the immunoenhancement by vitamin E.

And he also talks about it increasing iron absorption, and in an introductory remark for Albert Szent-Györgyi.

That seems to be it. I know that some people here watch his videos but I haven't seen any of those. I think he tried to make his articles uncontroversial in most respects so he could introduce other less-known controversial topics. Some things just seem too far out for some people because of cultural conditioning, and having too many unsanctioned ideas in one single place can overwhelm people.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I don't know. He doesn't seem to mention it much. (I have only read about half of Ray Peat's articles.)

In one of his articles, there is a footnote denoted by an asterisk.

Ray Peat
He mentions its well-accepted vitamin-E-sparing function:


And he also talks about it increasing iron absorption, and in an introductory remark for Albert Szent-Györgyi.

That seems to be it. I know that some people here watch his videos but I haven't seen any of those. I think he tried to make his articles uncontroversial in most respects so he could introduce other less-known controversial topics. Some things just seem too far out for some people because of cultural conditioning, and having too many unsanctioned ideas in one single place can overwhelm people.

I think it's impurities in C as manufactured. Also how C increases iron absorption 8X. And question as to asborbic acid itself and if this is really vitamin C.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I ordered a vitamin C made in UK.

I have used C for a long time but stopped when I started Peat-inspired health.

I even made a lot of lipo-C at home, but it has PUFAs in it due to the soy or sunflower lecithin.

I found it very useful. I drink a good amount of fresh squeezed OJ every day so I am getting the amount I need.

Meat and fish contain vitamin C also. So do fruits other than citrus.

 

[Braveheart]

what do you all know about ascorbyl palmitate?

 

[Luann]

BRAIN LIPID MODIFICATIONS INDUCED BY ESSENTIAL FATTY ACID DEFICIENCY IN GROWING MALE AND FEMALE RATS

BRAIN LIPID MODIFICATIONS INDUCED BY ESSENTIAL FATTY ACID DEFICIENCY IN GROWING MALE AND FEMALE RATS

the brain contained satisfactory unsaturated fats on its own, even without any dietary EFA.

Hey ecstatic hamster, just had a question here, the study you post show that the rats' brain weight was reduced on the EFAD diet, was wondering if this is problematic?

 

[Xisca]

Meat and fish contain vitamin C also. So do fruits other than citrus.

Parsley is supposed to be quite high in vitC, and other veggies too.
Fesh liver has vitamine C, but who finds freshly killed animal if you do not raise yours?
About meat etc, and cooked food, who has the quote of Ray Peat saying that vitamine C diseapears when food is cooked, but it is only a change of form! And our body does reform the right vitamine c we need...
If i remember right....

what do you all know about ascorbyl palmitate?

Interrresting question.... and forms of non acid vitamine C... I think they are bound to calcium or magnesium...

 

[sladerunner69]

How dare the authority of our almighty lord Peat be questioned! I find this notion utterly repugnant!

 

[ecstatichamster]

Hey ecstatic hamster, just had a question here, the study you post show that the rats' brain weight was reduced on the EFAD diet, was wondering if this is problematic?

I don't know.