Good (HDL) Cholesterol Is Not So Good After All

[milk_lover]

According to Peat in an interview, HDL is associated with allergies and high LDL is protective against allergies. So it seems Peat agrees that HDL is not particularly an indicative of good health. Nice work haidut :)

 

[Kasper]

I still wonder, why then does coconut oil increase hdl like nothing else...

 

[forterpride]

@haidut greatpost. as always thank you. so what does this mean in the context of cocounut oil as others have mentioned? thanks man.

 

[thyrulian]

I still wonder, why then does coconut oil increase hdl like nothing else...

Immune system activation?

 

[haidut]

@haidut greatpost. as always thank you. so what does this mean in the context of cocounut oil as others have mentioned? thanks man.

If coconut oil is not digested properly, it may have a bit of serotonergic effect like all fats. The study I posted on gut serotonin and another one on high fat diets showed that gut serotonin rises with chronic high fat consumption. I don't know if it is the fat that directly causes this effect or taurocholic acid, which is released to digest the fat. The studies said it is the latter, but either way eating a lot of fat may end up raising serotonin and thus HDL. People on SSRI have high HDL and it is probably through the same mechanism. So, high HDL may be thought of as a symptoms of high endotoxin and/or serotonin.

 

[jb116]

If coconut oil is not digested properly, it may have a bit of serotonergic effect like all fats. The study I posted on gut serotonin and another one on high fat diets showed that gut serotonin rises with chronic high fat consumption. I don't know if it is the fat that directly causes this effect or taurocholic acid, which is released to digest the fat. The studies said it is the latter, but either way eating a lot of fat may end up raising serotonin and thus HDL. People on SSRI have high HDL and it is probably through the same mechanism. So, high HDL may be thought of as a symptoms of high endotoxin and/or serotonin.

I know a relative who switched to an essentially whole grain based diet and their HDL shot up 20 points in 2 months time. As most of us know how much harsh grains
and that kind of fiber can increase serotonin. Then the interpretation is "hooray! I raised my 'good' cholesterol"

 

[mirc12354]

So if HDL is not soo"good" after all is there any reason one should be worried if his HDL is tested too low?
From my blood test:
Total cholesterol: 4,3 (normal 4,0 - 5,2)
HDL-cholesterol: 1,0 (normal over 1,4)
LDL-cholesterol: 3,0 (normal 2,0 - 3,5)

 

[dookie]

@haidut

And the absolutely best ways of raising LDL and lowering HDL are:

- Aromatase inhibitors (particularly arimidex and femara are know for this effect),
- Oral DHT-based steroids (mesterolone, etc).

Interestingly, estrogen does the opposite: raises HDL and lowers LDL. So we can deduce that these drugs work against estrogen

The changes in cholesterol levels can actually be pretty massive from these drugs

 

[dookie]

So if HDL is not soo"good" after all is there any reason one should be worried if his HDL is tested too low?
From my blood test:
Total cholesterol: 4,3 (normal 4,0 - 5,2)
HDL-cholesterol: 1,0 (normal over 1,4)
LDL-cholesterol: 3,0 (normal 2,0 - 3,5)

It makes you more protected against some diseases :)

Although you may want to raise your LDL a bit more. Cream and egg yolks help.

 

[mirc12354]

It makes you more protected against some diseases :)

Although you may want to raise your LDL a bit more. Cream and egg yolks help.

I eat 3-4 whole eggs a day.

 

[haidut]

@haidut

And the absolutely best ways of raising LDL and lowering HDL are:

- Aromatase inhibitors (particularly arimidex and femara are know for this effect),
- Oral DHT-based steroids (mesterolone, etc).

Interestingly, estrogen does the opposite: raises HDL and lowers LDL. So we can deduce that these drugs work against estrogen

The changes in cholesterol levels can actually be pretty massive from these drugs

Yes, I agree. But I would like to point out that the goal should not be to lower HDL per se. The goal should be to lower/stop whatever process or toxin is causing the elevation. So, as far as I know these drugs do not have a direct effect on HDL (which would be bad) but rather oppose the things that cause HDL to rise - estrogen, and believe or not, endotoxin. DHT is an endotoxin antagonist. DHEA, progesterone and to a lesser degree pregnenolone also block TLR4.
Dihydrotestosterone attenuates endotoxin, cytokine, and hypoxia-induced vascular inflammation

Btw, all DHT-based steroids have this protective effect, not just orally usable ones like Mesterolone.

 

[Prota]

More supplements and Peaty foods to low HDL and raise LDL?
Any thoughts?

 

[Jpkoepse]

Yes, I agree. But I would like to point out that the goal should not be to lower HDL per se. The goal should be to lower/stop whatever process or toxin is causing the elevation. So, as far as I know these drugs do not have a direct effect on HDL (which would be bad) but rather oppose the things that cause HDL to rise - estrogen, and believe or not, endotoxin. DHT is an endotoxin antagonist. DHEA, progesterone and to a lesser degree pregnenolone also block TLR4.
Dihydrotestosterone attenuates endotoxin, cytokine, and hypoxia-induced vascular inflammation

Btw, all DHT-based steroids have this protective effect, not just orally usable ones like Mesterolone.

Sorry to revive an old thread... but this is something I've been researching a lot lately. As someone who uses AAS regularly as a competitive bodybuilder, I'm very concerned about minimizing long term health damage, specifically when it comes to the cardiovascular system. The current bodybuilder dogma is to focus on elevating HDL cholesterol as much as possible... As stated earlier in the thread... HDL can really take a massive hit in some people, especially myself. I have had an HDL of 3 before. Even when off.. the highest my HDL has ever been was 27 and that is with ton's of krill oil, citrus bergamot, etc (before I discovered PEAT)

I guess my question is first, what is the mechanism behind this? Granted aromatase inhibitors are known to lower HDL pretty significantly... Reading some of the posts in this thread seem to suggest a low LDL as indicative of being "healthier"...

Is it possible that this isn't something I should be concerned about? Side Note: C Reactive Protein has always come back very low which I would assume is a positive thing as inflammation is the main concern when it comes to atherosclerosis.

 

[haidut]

Sorry to revive an old thread... but this is something I've been researching a lot lately. As someone who uses AAS regularly as a competitive bodybuilder, I'm very concerned about minimizing long term health damage, specifically when it comes to the cardiovascular system. The current bodybuilder dogma is to focus on elevating HDL cholesterol as much as possible... As stated earlier in the thread... HDL can really take a massive hit in some people, especially myself. I have had an HDL of 3 before. Even when off.. the highest my HDL has ever been was 27 and that is with ton's of krill oil, citrus bergamot, etc (before I discovered PEAT)

I guess my question is first, what is the mechanism behind this? Granted aromatase inhibitors are known to lower HDL pretty significantly... Reading some of the posts in this thread seem to suggest a low LDL as indicative of being "healthier"...

Is it possible that this isn't something I should be concerned about? Side Note: C Reactive Protein has always come back very low which I would assume is a positive thing as inflammation is the main concern when it comes to atherosclerosis.

In your off-cycle time I would do an HDL test as baseline and then have a few drinks 3-4 times a week and then repeat the HDL test after that. It should rise, as alcohol (through endotoxin) is one of the most potent inducers of HDL. If possible I would then stop drinking completely and do another HDL test a week later. It should return to its pre-drinking baseline. That would be an indication of good physiological response.
I have seen people with HDL in the 90s and their doctors were thrilled but at the same time these people had high RBC, high CRP, high ESR, high LDH, etc and were clearly not healthy. I certainly do not agree with the mainstream dogma that HDL should be as high as possible and LDL as low as possible. More like LDL should be in the 150-200 range while HDL should be above 30 but not in the 80-90 range that doctors pursue like the Holy Grail. In older people (60+ years) the healtiest LDL was shown to be in the 250 range and anything lower than 200 was shown to increase all-cause mortality. HDL should rise when exposed to toxins/alcohol/etc and then return to baseline value within a few days after the toxin assault.

 

[Jpkoepse]

In your off-cycle time I would do an HDL test as baseline and then have a few drinks 3-4 times a week and then repeat the HDL test after that. It should rise, as alcohol (through endotoxin) is one of the most potent inducers of HDL. If possible I would then stop drinking completely and do another HDL test a week later. It should return to its pre-drinking baseline. That would be an indication of good physiological response.
I have seen people with HDL in the 90s and their doctors were thrilled but at the same time these people had high RBC, high CRP, high ESR, high LDH, etc and were clearly not healthy. I certainly do not agree with the mainstream dogma that HDL should be as high as possible and LDL as low as possible. More like LDL should be in the 150-200 range while HDL should be above 30 but not in the 80-90 range that doctors pursue like the Holy Grail. In older people (60+ years) the healtiest LDL was shown to be in the 250 range and anything lower than 200 was shown to increase all-cause mortality. HDL should rise when exposed to toxins/alcohol/etc and then return to baseline value within a few days after the toxin assault.

Ah that is very interesting! I will try this and report back. Assuming I get a good physiological response, is there no need to worry with such a low HDL (currently 15)? What would you advise if I don't have a response as outlined above?

Thanks for your time!

 

[haidut]

Ah that is very interesting! I will try this and report back. Assuming I get a good physiological response, is there no need to worry with such a low HDL (currently 15)? What would you advise if I don't have a response as outlined above?

Thanks for your time!

If you have the proper physiological response then I think it is OK. If you LDL is normal then low HDL is probably not a cause of much concern by itself. If both LDL and HDL are low and especially if you don't exhibit the response after drinking then something could be impeding liver function as both of these proteins are produced by the liver.

 

[benaoao]

In your off-cycle time I would do an HDL test as baseline and then have a few drinks 3-4 times a week and then repeat the HDL test after that. It should rise, as alcohol (through endotoxin) is one of the most potent inducers of HDL. If possible I would then stop drinking completely and do another HDL test a week later. It should return to its pre-drinking baseline. That would be an indication of good physiological response.
I have seen people with HDL in the 90s and their doctors were thrilled but at the same time these people had high RBC, high CRP, high ESR, high LDH, etc and were clearly not healthy. I certainly do not agree with the mainstream dogma that HDL should be as high as possible and LDL as low as possible. More like LDL should be in the 150-200 range while HDL should be above 30 but not in the 80-90 range that doctors pursue like the Holy Grail. In older people (60+ years) the healtiest LDL was shown to be in the 250 range and anything lower than 200 was shown to increase all-cause mortality. HDL should rise when exposed to toxins/alcohol/etc and then return to baseline value within a few days after the toxin assault.

Generally agreeing with this, recommendations on cholesterol are stupid. Although I’d go for 100-150 ldl if HDL >30, purely because of ratios and an indication of a healthy high metabolism meaning high cholesterol turnover. Of course as people age, metabolism ought to slow down, so these numbers should be adapted taking age into account.

I think doctors pursue high HDL because it’s known that the hdl/Trigs ratio is a good predictive tool; as always instead of lowering what’s too high (trigs) the focus is on raising what need not be raised (hdl). It’s amazing.

 

[haidut]

Generally agreeing with this, recommendations on cholesterol are stupid. Although I’d go for 100-150 ldl if HDL >30, purely because of ratios and an indication of a healthy high metabolism meaning high cholesterol turnover. Of course as people age, metabolism ought to slow down, so these numbers should be adapted taking age into account.

I think doctors pursue high HDL because it’s known that the hdl/Trigs ratio is a good predictive tool; as always instead of lowering what’s too high (trigs) the focus is on raising what need not be raised (hdl). It’s amazing.

Yeah, and that last part (pursuing high HDL) seems to continue even though all the drugs developed specifically to raise HDL flopped pretty badly in trials and even caused strokes. Niacinamide seems to pretty reliably lower high trigs and that should improve the ratio.

 

[Jpkoepse]

Yeah, and that last part (pursuing high HDL) seems to continue even though all the drugs developed specifically to raise HDL flopped pretty badly in trials and even caused strokes. Niacinamide seems to pretty reliably lower high trigs and that should improve the ratio.

Generally agreeing with this, recommendations on cholesterol are stupid. Although I’d go for 100-150 ldl if HDL >30, purely because of ratios and an indication of a healthy high metabolism meaning high cholesterol turnover. Of course as people age, metabolism ought to slow down, so these numbers should be adapted taking age into account.

I think doctors pursue high HDL because it’s known that the hdl/Trigs ratio is a good predictive tool; as always instead of lowering what’s too high (trigs) the focus is on raising what need not be raised (hdl). It’s amazing.

So from what I'm gathering, it would be better to focus my efforts on lowering triglycerides instead of raising a very low HDL level... would this still stand if triglyceride levels are normal?

 

[dbh25]

More like LDL should be in the 150-200 range

@haidut
Can you post a thread to this or explain the Ldl range? Thanks.