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Anti-Peat Peat Wrong About PUFA?

postman

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Mar 3, 2016
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Can you try it again and let me know if it works now? Just make sure you sign out and sign in before doing it.

Apologies for anyone running into this issue. Working on getting it squashed.
Signed in and out, still doesn't work.
 

schultz

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Jul 29, 2014
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You're also wrong about the Mead acid. That requires sub-gram PUFA consumption. 4-5g isn't going to cover it. Even 400mg or so of linoleic acid can shut down Mead acid production.

I believe you are incorrect. I will find the studies on my computer another day (I'm not at home right now). You can probably be in EFAD at 1.5g or lower. You'd still be making Mead acid at higher intake than that but not nearly as much. It increases significantly the lower you go and it depends on which PUFA's your consuming. AA can shut down Mead acid 3 times more powerfully than LA. Something like pure omega 3 you could eat 5 or even 10g possibly and still be in EFAD.
 

Geronimo

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May 11, 2020
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None of those long term studies were very well designed, avoiding most confounding factors. Why would serum measurements matter? It's the cumulative cellular effects, not the total amount in serum. None of the short term studies were long enough to account for accumulation. Go chug 2 cups of soybean oil for a year and see how you feel. I do believe SOME omega-3 from Whitefish/shellfish is important. To conflate omega 3 with omega 6 is total nonsense, first because well...they're different things, 2nd because they have drastically different effects on the body, especially when it's whitefish or Shellfish compared to commercial fish oil and/or vegetable oils. This author goes over-the-top ad hominem right out the gate, just attacking those who think the agribusinesses don't care about negative health effects (newsflash: they don't care) and doesn't even mention the conflicting evidence against his argument. Someone said "coincidence theorist" before. The author just screams of either someone who is blindly authoritarian and thinks having a degree in any field makes him smarter than everyone who has no degree, or just an outright paid shill. I think haidut should chime in, with like 800 studies he has proving this nonsense wrong. Yes, SOME African cultures probably consumed more PUFA than other cultures. But they consumed it along with a ton of antioxidants and vitamin rich veggies and fruit, not to mention palm oil...you know...the most consumed oil in Africa. This guy's just outright saying vegetable oils are totally fine, disregarding almost all scientific literature and logic. To be fair, I couldn't read the whole thing. After the 5th trash study listed, I figured if he leads with those then there's not much substance to the rest. I have important things to do in lieu of reading his pseudoscience hackery. Is he implying that our bodies have a 100% efficient method of disposing of excess omega 6, stopping them from causing damage? I'd like to see the proof of that, much in the same way I'd like to see a unicorn riding a dragon. And why would we even care about Africans' ancient diets if we're not of African descent? Is the argument that the thousands of years people spent exclusively in Europe or Asia had no effect on their diet and genome, and that it's all based on some ancient African diets that preceeded that? Ridiculous. He should post all the links to diabetes and cancer proven by omega 6 consumption...and then apologize....and then STOP WRITING FOREVER. Anybody here feel a lot better after consuming large amounts of omega 6? Does he have a counter-theory about what is causing the disastrous state of health of cultures consuming huge amounts of vegetable oil? Good luck with that. Get that clown out of here. Shame him, like he tried to shame everyone who KNOWS exactly why am excess of omega 6 is terrible for human health. Ray Peat, basic science, rudimentary research and common sense for the win.



 
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Grischbal

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Jul 22, 2020
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I believe you are incorrect. I will find the studies on my computer another day (I'm not at home right now). You can probably be in EFAD at 1.5g or lower. You'd still be making Mead acid at higher intake than that but not nearly as much. It increases significantly the lower you go and it depends on which PUFA's your consuming. AA can shut down Mead acid 3 times more powerfully than LA. Something like pure omega 3 you could eat 5 or even 10g possibly and still be in EFAD.
I dont like linking this site here but someone compiled a bit of information about Mead Acid on there. Found it mildly interesting but cant make much sense of it
 

schultz

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I dont like linking this site here but someone compiled a bit of information about Mead Acid on there. Found it mildly interesting but cant make much sense of it

Ahhh yes, thanks for the link. This graph (below) is one I've posted on the forum before. As you can see, Mead acid is still being made at 2% of calories. For a 2,000 calorie diet that would be a little over 4g of fat. Production seems to increase significantly at 0.5% of diet, which is slightly over 1g for 2,000 calorie diet. Keep in mind that that study was using LA which as I mentioned is more powerful than n-3 at preventing EFAD and yet most people (at least on the forum) consume a good portion of their total PUFA as n-3. In fact, mine is sometimes equal to n-6 if I consume shellfish that day. So I may get 1g of n-6 and 1g of n-3. Mead acid production would be present on that amount and if done consistently someone would probably be considered "essential fatty acid deficient" if they had their ratio checked.

There may be many other factors potentially as well to consider. If a lot of the PUFA is consumed as fruit it's possible not all of it is absorbed. Fibre can push fat along. Vitamin E in the diet may also alter the amount slightly (assuming). Keeping FFA low could also increase production (again, assumption)

trienetetraene.jpg
 

Grischbal

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Jul 22, 2020
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Ahhh yes, thanks for the link. This graph (below) is one I've posted on the forum before. As you can see, Mead acid is still being made at 2% of calories. For a 2,000 calorie diet that would be a little over 4g of fat. Production seems to increase significantly at 0.5% of diet, which is slightly over 1g for 2,000 calorie diet. Keep in mind that that study was using LA which as I mentioned is more powerful than n-3 at preventing EFAD and yet most people (at least on the forum) consume a good portion of their total PUFA as n-3. In fact, mine is sometimes equal to n-6 if I consume shellfish that day. So I may get 1g of n-6 and 1g of n-3. Mead acid production would be present on that amount and if done consistently someone would probably be considered "essential fatty acid deficient" if they had their ratio checked.

There may be many other factors potentially as well to consider. If a lot of the PUFA is consumed as fruit it's possible not all of it is absorbed. Fibre can push fat along. Vitamin E in the diet may also alter the amount slightly (assuming). Keeping FFA low could also increase production (again, assumption)

View attachment 20873
Thanks!
FFA is mainly released during the night, right? How can I avoid this? WIth Niacinamide or are there better things to address this?
 

schultz

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Thanks!
FFA is mainly released during the night, right? How can I avoid this? WIth Niacinamide or are there better things to address this?

Yeah. So if you had an IV of sucrose or something every night you'd probably go into EFAD quite quickly (less than 2 weeks), assuming you kept FFA suppressed during the day as well by eating regularly.

I don't know if you can keep it completely suppressed at night by just eating before bed and taking aspirin or niacinamide. I'm sort of curious myself now... You'd have to get really good deep sleep.
 

Vajra

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Mar 27, 2021
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So what's with all the meta-analyses on PUFAs being anti-inflammatory?
I just had the pleasure of watching this video:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTaAHSFHUU
and I must say I wish I knew what's missing in my mind or how even to respond. Is he really cherry picking? There's so many damn studies. I don't know how easy it is to manipulate data or anything on meta-analyses - I'm new to that world. Or, is there's something I'm missing with regards to the inflammatory markers measured? I'm not a stranger to the biochemistry of unsaturated lipids and the production of aldehydes and so on, but do the human studies not speak?
 

RealNeat

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From Wikipedia:
Mead acid, also referred to as eicosatrienoic acid, is chemically a carboxylic acid with a 20-carbon chain and three methylene-interrupted cis double bonds, as is typical for polyunsaturated fatty acids. The first double bond is located at the ninth carbon from the omega end. In physiological literature, it is given the name 20:3 (n-9). (See Fatty Acid#Nomenclature for an explanation of the naming system.) In the presence of lipoxygenase, cytochrome p450, or cyclooxygenase, mead acid can form various hydroxyeicosatetraenoic acid (HETE) and hydroperoxy (HpETE) products.[3][4]

Two fatty acids, linoleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid, are considered essential fatty acids (EFAs) in humans and other mammals. Both are 18 carbon fatty acids unlike mead acid, which has 20 carbons. Linoleic is an ω-6 fatty acid whereas linolenic is ω-3 and mead is ω-9. One study examined patients with intestinal fat malabsorption and suspected EFA deficiency; they were found to have blood-levels of mead acid about 13-fold higher than reference subjects.[5] Under severe conditions of essential fatty acid deprivation, mammals will elongate and desaturate oleic acid to make mead acid, (20:3, n−9).[6] This has been documented to a lesser extent in vegetarians and semi-vegetarians following an unbalanced diet.[7][8]

The reason I post this is because I though that Mead acid was a monounsaturated fat however, it seems the body intentionally unsaturates Oleic Acid to make it. Curious. However, have heard that even though it is the case Mead acid still doesn't have many of the negative effects attributed to the other unsaturated fatty acids.
 

Blaze

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Apr 25, 2020
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I believe it was 0,5 grams per day or less to keep PUFA from accumulating, not 1 gram.
Correct, but either way, that number will have great variance as some are much better at both inactivating or eliminating Pufa than others. Regardless of whether or not Pufa is bad due to the peroxidation it promotes, or necessary for growth and spermatogenesis and other physiological processes such as tight skin junctions etc.... as some believe, the point is moot. Keep it as low as possible and you'll still get more than enough. Ray was 100% correct in his assessment that any excess dietary pufa should be avoided as much as humanly possible to limit tissue and cellular damage. It's nearly impossible to promote a deficiency of so called "vitamin F" even if you believe such a condition actually exists.

Even George Burr had trouble at first demonstrating a deficiency and to create a special diet of sucrose and casein to supposedly demonstrate his "deficiency". Any normal diet, even the Ray Peat diet will never make you deficient in Arachidonate or DHA.
 
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