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Good (HDL) Cholesterol Is Not So Good After All

haidut

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Many people on the forum are familiar with Ray's writings about cholesterol and how the "good" one called HDL is actually elevated by toxins, alcohol, endurance exerise, etc and is mainly used to carry poison from the tissues back to the liver for excretion. So, having high HDL is actually not a good thing. Also, anything that increases your HDL will tend do decrease LDL, and low LDL is one of the most powerful predictors of cancer incidence even decades before it happens.
Well, I have had this discussion several times with actual doctors and most of them either dismiss this idea directly or just ask me "why do you want to get us unemployed. we make money by selling stuff that lowers LDL and increases HDL".
This study finally throws a wrench in the wheel of the official cholesterol mantra. And it also has the added bonus that it throws the spotlight on avocado (which Ray has also spoken against) as one of the inducers of HDL. I think he said that some fruits like avocado contains so much PUFA that they can be directly carcinogenic even in the short term.
Just looking at the other things that raise HDL - fish, nuts and even olive oil - makes Peat's point on cholesterol even more valid.

'Good' cholesterol not always good, study suggests - BBC News
"...Avocado - along with nuts, olive oil and fish - raises levels of 'good' cholesterol ."

"...Eating olive oil, fish and nuts raises levels of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) - which is more commonly known as good cholesterol."

"...Prof Adam Butterworth, one of the researchers from the University of Cambridge, told the BBC News website: "This is significant because we had always believed that good cholesterol is associated with a lower risk of heart disease. "This is one of the first studies to show that some people that have high levels of 'good' cholesterol actually have a higher risk of heart disease so it challenges our conventional wisdom about whether 'good' cholesterol is protecting people from heart disease or not." There have been huge efforts put into drugs to raise HDL in the hope they have the same impact as statins, which lower the bad cholesterol. Prof Butterworth warned that drugs aimed simply at "trying to raise HDL may not be that useful".
 

David Chung

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It seems to me that the interpretation in which HDL carries bad stuff is consistent with the view that high HDL is desirable.

For those with high TG, exercising increases HDL and lowers LDL. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that the increased level of HDL is an indicator that the body is doing something to improve the insulin sensitivity. In other words, it is a biomarker for the condition in which the body is going from fat storage mode to fat utilization mode, and improving its energetic state.
 
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haidut

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It seems to me that the interpretation in which HDL carries bad stuff is consistent with the view that high HDL is desirable.

For those with high TG, exercising increases HDL and lowers LDL. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that the increased level of HDL is an indicator that the body is doing something to improve the insulin sensitivity. In other words, it is a biomarker for the condition in which the body is going from fat storage mode to fat utilization mode, and improving its energetic state.

Yes, but ideally you don't want high HDL
It seems to me that the interpretation in which HDL carries bad stuff is consistent with the view that high HDL is desirable.

For those with high TG, exercising increases HDL and lowers LDL. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that the increased level of HDL is an indicator that the body is doing something to improve the insulin sensitivity. In other words, it is a biomarker for the condition in which the body is going from fat storage mode to fat utilization mode, and improving its energetic state.

Well, that sounds logical but it is not what the study found. The people with high HDL had increased risk of heart disease, not lower. And there have been hundreds of drugs developed and tested (including plain niacin) for raising HDL, especially in people with low HDL. None of them showed any benefit in people with low HDL, and if HDL was somehow protective for CVD it should have shown at least minute benefit. The trial with time-released niacin formulation called Niaspan even showed much higher risk of stroke even though Niaspan did raise HDL a lot, almost double the initial levels. Overall, having high HDL is usually a surrogate sign for having low LDL and it is LDL that is protective and serves as the raw material for steroid synthesis.
 
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So it's just damage control, you aren't getting HDL just for free...
 

Kasper

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Huum, but coconut oil seems to be the most powerful booster of HDL...

The HDL of my parents has increased a lot, since I made them use coconut oil instead of sunflower oil. Which the doctors says is good.
 

Makrosky

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The oneliner would be : You want high total cholesterol in which LDL is higher than HDL ??
 

Fractality

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I'm trying to reconcile this with the fact that AAS use tanks HDL levels and increases LDL levels. Perhaps that isn't the indicator we think it is for poor cardiovascular health.
 

mujuro

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I'm trying to reconcile this with the fact that AAS use tanks HDL levels and increases LDL levels. Perhaps that isn't the indicator we think it is for poor cardiovascular health.

Exogenous use shuts down endogenous synthesis, allowing LDL to pile up. But how much of that is used for androgens? Some compounds will raise LDL mildly (injectables mostly) while others will send it skyrocketing (mostly orals). I opined to a friend that suppression of gonadotropins by AAS also affects the production of pregnanes and progesterone, from altered activity of a few CYP enzymes but perhaps also the absence of LH and FSH. I am yet to see anyone I know on AAS getting bloodwork done to include a list of items that would shed some light on this. Not unless I was paying for it. I mean, I could do it myself but I haven't the time or the effort to use AAS anymore.
 

milk_lover

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In my low carb phase, my HDL went up and LDL went up too. I am guessing the former went up because of PUFA and toxins and the latter because of impaired thyroid function. That phase was the worst phase I've ever felt even though my body was "perfect" in people standards.
 

Blossom

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In my low carb phase, my HDL went up and LDL went up too. I am guessing the former went up because of PUFA and toxins and the latter because of impaired thyroid function. That phase was the worst phase I've ever felt even though my body was "perfect" in people standards.
Yeah me too milk_lover, my cholesterol looked perfect according to my doctor at the time and I had the physique of a fitness model but I was dying so it wasn't worth it. In some ways I'm still fixing that mess.
 

milk_lover

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Yeah me too milk_lover, my cholesterol looked perfect according to my doctor at the time and I had the physique of a fitness model but I was dying so it wasn't worth it. In some ways I'm still fixing that mess.
Yeah we're in the same boat! I have very high optimism everything will go back to normal at least following Peat's teachings. I guess having low stress hormones and having high dopamine using Peat tools certainly help keep me patient.
 

David Chung

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Well, that sounds logical but it is not what the study found. The people with high HDL had increased risk of heart disease, not lower. And there have been hundreds of drugs developed and tested (including plain niacin) for raising HDL, especially in people with low HDL. None of them showed any benefit in people with low HDL, and if HDL was somehow protective for CVD it should have shown at least minute benefit.

I can see that if one uses a drug which requires the body to increase HDL (e.g., to rid itself of whatever the drug brings inside the body), how that may not help the body. In such situations, high HDL woiuld mean that the body has additional stress that it is fighting against, without any success (since one is continually taking the drug).

In the case of exercise, that is not what happens. The reason why the HDL increases is because the body is trying to increase the transport of TG for energy. It is targeting a specific pathology. In this situation, high HDL is a good thing - the beneficial effect of exercise is indisputable, and increased HDL is always found in such situations.

In summary, I don't think one can lump all cases of high HDL into one category, and conclude that HDL is bad for one's cardio-vascular health. I think one has to look at the context. In cases where HDL indicates a correction of energy imbalance in the body, higher HDL should be a good thing.
 
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David Chung

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I'm trying to reconcile this with the fact that AAS use tanks HDL levels and increases LDL levels. Perhaps that isn't the indicator we think it is for poor cardiovascular health.

Intuitively, the anabolic condition is the condition in which most tissues grow, including visceral adipocytes. It makes sense to me that an anabolic state requires LDL transport. Since there is no lipolysis, there is no need for HDL.
 
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tara

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... the beneficial effect of exercise is indisputable ...
Really?
You haven't been reading the dispute about this?
Seems to me as though some regular movement is generally a good thing, but the kind and amount of exercise that is helpful can depend on one's state, and there are lots of ways to use exercise that can do more harm than good.
 

supernature

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Is that means only the kids are allowed to play, did i just read the good cholesterol is not good any more.., and we can play no more..., i really thought Life is motion...
 

tara

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Is that means only the kids are allowed to play ...
Are you responding to me?
If so, no, I didn't say or mean that.
Play is good for all of us.
I didn't say all exercise (or play) was bad. I was just challenging the idea that all exercise is always and undisputably good for health. What and how much exercise we can benefit from varies.
 

David Chung

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Really?
You haven't been reading the dispute about this?
Seems to me as though some regular movement is generally a good thing, but the kind and amount of exercise that is helpful can depend on one's state, and there are lots of ways to use exercise that can do more harm than good.

Well, ok, you are right - even "goodness" of exercise has a proper context. It is a stressor, so, it can be bad under various circumstances (e.g., marathon). My assumption is that an average Jane knows how to exercise to reap its benefits - I don't think it is outlandish to believe that.
 

PakPik

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Well, ok, you are right - even "goodness" of exercise has a proper context. It is a stressor, so, it can be bad under various circumstances (e.g., marathon). My assumption is that an average Jane knows how to exercise to reap its benefits - I don't think it is outlandish to believe that.
I really doubt the average Joe knows how to exercise or eat anymore due to constant bad advice from the media and medical system. Some people are so deranged, than even super mild exercise can only contribute to their degenerative process. So this is not about marathons, but any kind of exercise and the context many people find themselves in. I definitely harmed myself with very very mild exercise many years ago.
 

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