Is Peat Wrong After All? The Lyon Heart Study

[Travis]

I found it very useful. I drink a good amount of fresh squeezed OJ every day so I am getting the amount I need.

Yeah. Only a few oranges or a pineapple per day will probably prevent the brand of cardiovascular disease that Pauling was talking about; the type dependent on Lp(a) and collagen synthesis. They used megadoses in clinical practice to reverse cardiovascular disease, but Linus Pauling only recommended 2,000 milligrams per day for average people. This is equivalent it 4 L (~1 gallon) of orange juice.* I have actually drank this much before in one day when I worked next to a store that squeezed their own.

Perhaps I should give more consideration to the iron-absorbing effect of iron. This is very well established, and it's dose-dependent.
[From 3 separate studies.]

But this effect seems to be limited to non-heme iron. Here are some quotes:

Similar observations have been made for heme iron, which comes principally from hemoglobin and myoglobin of meat. Heme compounds enter a second common pool and share a set of properties different from those that govern nonheme iron absorption.’ For example, heme is not degraded to any degree in the lumen of the gut but is taken up by the mucosal cells with iron still within the porphyrin ring. Heme iron absorption is relatively independent of other components of the meal; ascorbic acid has no effect.

Lynch, Sean R., and James D. Cook. "Interaction of vitamin C and iron." Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 355.1 (1980): 32-44.

6. The effect of ascorbic acid on absorption of hemoglobin iron. Ascorbic acid increases the absorption of iron given as ferric salts and of iron in many foods presumably by increasing the amount of ferrous iron presented to the mucosa. Absorption of hemoglobin iron given without food has been found not to be increased by ascorbic acid, and this observation was confirmed in two subjects with iron-deficiency anemia. These subjects, K. A. and B. B., were given 5 mg hemoglobin iron with and without 80 mg ascorbic acid on successive days. Absorptions were 19.3 and 9.6 per cent with ascorbic acid and 14.7 and 9.9 per cent without it, respectively. The effect of a large amount of ascorbic acid on the absorption of hemoglobin iron given with food was studied in three healthy subjects, F. G., D. W., and R. S., who took 2.5 mg hemoglobin iron with a meal, containing 1.8 g iron, with and without 500 mg ascorbic acid on successive days. Absorptions with ascorbic acid were 19.4, 14.3, and 5.6 per cent, averaging 13.1 per cent, and absorptions without it, 27.1, 10.9, and 6.9 per cent, averaging 15.0 per cent. Thus, unlike the absorption of other forms of food iron, that of hemoglobin iron does not appear to be increased by ascorbic acid.

Turnbull, Adam, Frans Cleton, and Clement A. Finch. "Iron absorption. IV. The absorption of hemoglobin iron." Journal of Clinical Investigation 41.10 (1962): 1897.

The mechanism of action of AA is usually related either to its ability to form soluble iron complexes or its ability to reduce ferric to ferrous ions.

Heme iron is already chelated by the porphyrin ring.

And phytates, vitamin C, and even EDTA have negligible effect on it's absorption.

Likewise, the addition of iron chelators (EDTA) to labeled hemoglobin failed to show a significant decrease in the amount of iron absorbed (15). The absorption of hemoglobin-iron...

Conrad, M. E., et al. "Absorption of hemoglobin iron." American Journal of Physiology--Legacy Content 211.5 (1966): 1123-1130.

 

[Mito]

Also how C increases iron absorption 8X.

But it only increases absorption of non-heme iron. Most foods high in non-heme iron are not Peatish.

 

[Travis]

I think ceviche may be safe, but orange juice and Multi Grain Cheerios (62mg·Fe/100g) in the morning—with PUFA for dinner—seems like a veritable recipe for lipofuscin.

And the iron and vitamin C-containing multivitamins are still on the market.

 

[tara]

1st do not die of hunger!
2nd, eat what there is, so that you do more than surviving, and more than hibernating.
3rd, find in your place how to eat problematic food by the right processing, and the right other food that compensate the original problem.
4th comes a world where we can:
- eat part of a masai diet, and part of an inuit diet!
- extract and separate food elements, including oil...
Argh, 3rd point becomes complex!

Nicely said. :)

What does Ray say about C? Why isn't he for it? Seems only supportive of getting it in food.

I think it's impurities in C as manufactured.

This. He's referred to the lead used in the manufacturing process. I think he liked the stuff they used to make before they developed this process, but it was very expensive, and AFAIK is no longer available.

Interrresting question.... and forms of non acid vitamine C... I think they are bound to calcium or magnesium...

Or sodium.

 

[Mito]

I think ceviche may be safe, but orange juice and Multi Grain Cheerios (62mg·Fe/100g) in the morning—with PUFA for dinner—seems like a veritable recipe for lipofuscin

If there is milk with the Cheerios, would the calcium partially block Vitamin C's effect of increased iron absorption?

 

[Travis]

Yeah, I think so. I did see some evidence that calcium worked to decrease iron absorption.

 

[Crazycoco]

Hi travis,

Thank you for your useful and informative insights. Thank you too for not contesting the relavance of the study, but the interpretation of the results, which is, regarding a gold standard one, far more constructive.

Just a few things about the paradigm of the author of the study. I dont know what is a mediteranean diet for the US, but for french people, it has nothing to do with ancel Keys conclusions and his fake studies with serious flaws- in this case it has been demonstrated. French mediteranean diet is not anti- animal protein, anti-dairy, anti-alcohol, anti-fat or anti-cholesterol. More than that, regarding cholesterol theories, they think that "the lower the better" is entierly B.S.
But French mediteranean diet is anti- high Omega 6, pro LITTLE omega 3 (not binge on) pro plants foods, shellfish, olive oil, cheese, poultry and veggies.

Regarding SAFA, yes, they differ from peat paradigm and they think That they are not optimal fats but not for reason that american association has mentioned -it has nothing to do with cholesterol. So yes to cheese, but not That much.

Regarding your thoughts. I think you have to choose. What is the decisive factor That lead to the dramatically- i insist, dramatically-decrease of cardiovascular diseases and cancer in the experimental group?


Decrease of Omega 6?: "Even a study in humans with and without prostate cancer showed much higher levels of ω−6 linoleic acid in cancer. The lower total PUFA is a feather in the hat for the experimental group as well."

Or increase of vitamins?: "But the differences in cardiovascular events measured in this study probably had more to do with differences in vitamin and salt intake"

if it's vitamins. Again, it means That pufa are not toxic with a good overall diet. And i think That' why nuts are regularly associanted with health and decreases bodyfat.

Regarding vitamin C is it possible to contest the relevance of what you have said:

Vitamin C and Heart Health: A Review Based on Findings from Epidemiologic Studies

But i agree with you nevertheless, vitamin c is probably protective. Lorgeril who is also cardiologist explains in this book what was specially protective in the mediteranean diet wrote:

"Vitamin C seems to be highly protective for heart health. But selenium, and Omega 3 too, that's why fish or shellfish intake are so often associated with good health."

"Because of a statistically significant result, the decision was made to stop the trial." and then you wrote "This is how naïve this guy is. He actually thinks this is big news"

He's not naive, he is a medical doctor. He saw That the american heart association diet was litteraly KILLING patients. So they wanted to inform them. They where not talking about flies or rats here, but real human beeing suffuring and dying.

Regarding the ratio Omega 6/Omega 3 keep in mind That you have yourself a paradigm- à peat one- That probably dont let you see the elephant in the room.
Studies after studies, after studies... are showing the same thing: better ratio, better health'

Just another thing here. It's IMPOSSIBLE to avoid pufa. They are in milk vegetables meat etc... So the question is: if pufa are INEVITABLE, and if we have a RCT showing that a good ratio is favorable, why don't have a good ratio in your diet?

The importance of the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 essential fatty acids. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Crazycoco]

Ray suggests is no amount of Omega-3 that is favorable. If you listen to the KMUD radio interviews you will hear Ray talk about how fish oil has been used to make varnish, since it oxidizes so rapidly. How much varnish do you want to eat? And how is that favorable? What evidence do you have that it is OK eat any omega-3?

Quote from Ray peat "In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements".

Man, all of That contains pufa. It's not natural to avoid them. It's inevitable to have some in small amount. So regarding That The importance of the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 essential fatty acids. - PubMed - NCBI yeah, i prefer pastured eggs and grass fed product (milk and cheese) rather than factory products

 

[Travis]

Vitamin C is the most important for cardiovascular disease. This is not because it is an antioxidant, but because it's necessary to produce collagen. With not enough vitamin C, the collagen in the blood vessels breaks down and Lp(a) is upregulated.

Most people won't simply believe this because it's too simple. They refuse to believe that the primary cause has been known since the '50s but completely ignored.

Instead of choosing the most rational molecular mechanisms, the AHA and ADA simply chose the most profitable one.

If you actually read the evidence and put-down your cultural preconceptions, I think you will come to the same conclusion:

Here is a good place to start: Rath, Matthias, and Linus Pauling. "A unified theory of human cardiovascular disease leading the way to the abolition of this disease as a cause for human mortality." J Ortho Med 7 (1992): 5-15.

Pauling also has a few other articles on this, and Dr. Rath has dozens. You can find many of the rest on his website and Google Scholar.

Also, George Willis has four experimental studies from the '50s showing that vitamin C depletion in guinea pigs will cause cardiovascular disease.

Ian Prior has a few studies showing that South Pacific islanders have essentially no cardiovascular disease despite a diet extremely high in saturated fat, the highest in the world.

vitamin C deficiency ⇨ subclinical scurvy ⇨ arterial wall weakens ⇨ Lp(a) upregulation ⇨ Lp(a) attaches to arterial wall ⇨ cardiovascular disease

Apolipoprotein(a) is perhaps the most unique apolipoprotein. This has a plasminogen-like binding domain that binds to lysyl groups on the arterial wall the amazingly-high affinity. The affinity is so high that lysyl-sepharose chromatography columns are routinely used to separate this from the others.

Linus Pauling thinks that this is a protective mechanism. He claims that only the animals who have lost the ability to synthesize vitamin C have evolved the Lp(a) pathway.

Many animals cannot get cardiovascular disease. You can confirm this on Google Scholar. There are only a few animals that make good models. Obviously, cholesterol cannot be the whole story. It's not really even part of the story, as Ian Prior has shown.

But there are other forms. Arterial calcification can lead to a form of cardiovascular disease. This is entirely different and can be caused by a vitamin K deficiency. Vitamin K is necessary to create γ-carboyxyglutamyl domains on blood and bond proteins. These physically chelate calcium ions and keep them from precipitating.

And there is something about homocysteine but I haven't read much about that.

The type of fat consumed seems not to matter a great deal. Polyunsaturated fatty acids are more important in the etiology of cancer, diabetes, and obesity.

 

[Crazycoco]

The type of fat consumed seems not to matter a great deal. Polyunsaturated fatty acids are more important in the etiology of cancer, diabetes, and obesity.

Note That cancer decrease in the canola oil group too...

Thank you for your reference and insights! But dont you think That regarding the fact That pufa are in nearly every single food and That study after studies à good ratio seems important, we need a bit from grassfed foods? I mean it Lakes so much sense to take your milk from grassfed cows rather than grain-fed ones

Frankly, this is a thing that i dont understand from Ray peat. I remember stephan guyenet talking about Ray peat "if pufa are everywhere, it's gonna be tough to see them as toxic". Chris masterjohn says thé same thing. Ok large amount, even moderate from oils are toxic. But small amount or very small amount with good ratio. I dont see the data.

Same things with nuts. Where is the data showing That nuts (added pufa) are

Nuts & Obesity: The Weight of Evidence | NutritionFacts.org

 

[Crazycoco]

"showing That nuts are toxic"

 

[Travis]

Some fatty acids can have hormonal and antimetabolic effects, especially linoleic acid.

Fatty diets and cancer have been studied for about 100 years, starting with Mellanby. In the 60s, researchers began studying different kinds of fats and started analyzing them independently in the 70's. What they found was that linoleic acid was highly correlated with cancer.

Stearic acid was consistently found protective.

The effect is real. This was drawn for dozens of experiments. If you want to gain a deap understanding of why this happens, you have to read about arachidonic acid, eicosanoids, and PPARγ.

Ray Peat is right about linoleic acid, but the other PUFAs aren't as bad. These can, however, contribute to the formation of lipid peroxidation and then lipofuscin (although excess iron is probably a bigger factor).

I don't think nuts are toxic, but they can shift your metabolism if you eat too many. Most foods are going to have consequences and side-effects. Linoleic acid is also, coincidentally, the one fatty acid that binds to serum albumin the strongest and displaces tryptophan the most. This is the serotonin precursor, and too much free fatty acids in the blood will lower the tryptophan binding capacity of the blood.

I usually buy coconuts, but when I go shopping tonight I think I will buy almonds because my last batch of coconuts was not that great. Only one out of the four that I bought was good (mold sometimes grows in them if they aren't shipped properly.) A 25% success rate is too low.

If you avoid excessive iron and consume lots of antioxidants, then PUFA should be less of an issue. But since linoleic acid is the only precursor to eicosanoids, you know that they must have strong metabolic effects. This is probably what killed Steve Jobs.

I used to look at risk ratios of around 1.6 for IGF-1 and prostate cancer and think, "Well, looks like dairy products could be causing this." But after looking at evidence for linoleic acid, eicosanoids, prostaglandins, and cancer, I really think that it's a bigger issue.

Like I said, a biopsy study showed like a five-fold increase in linoleic acid in prostate cancer patients. I don't think that this was a coincidence. The only source of prostaglandins is linoleic acid. These are like food-derived hormones.

The other PUFA's don't seem to really effect cancer much, but they might increase the rate of aging. You have to read about the Lipofuscin Theory of Aging. This is a good one. The same authors writes a few articles on this:

Brunk, Ulf T., and Alexei Terman. "The mitochondrial‐lysosomal axis theory of aging." The FEBS Journal 269.8 (2002): 1996-2002.

Let me see if I can find that linoleic acid prostate cancer study...here we go:

Godley, Paul A., et al. "Biomarkers of essential fatty acid consumption and risk of prostatic carcinoma." Cancer Epidemiology and Prevention Biomarkers 5.11 (1996): 889-895.

Scroll down to the risk ratios for 'whites only' (Table 4). Here, you will find a risk ratio of 9.07 for the second-highest linoleic acid group. Look how this compares with the other fatty acids measured and remember that this was the only fatty acid consistently found to greatly increase cancer in rats—in dozens of studies with no exceptions.

And then see if you can find something more correlated with prostate cancer than linoleic acid (but don't really, as that probably would be a waste of time.)

 

[Xisca]

Stearic acid was consistently found protective.

10 Types of Saturated Fat Reviewed
I found this so clear to understand saturated fats!

About vitamine C, what do you think of CoQ10 to help it? It would explain why we cannot get that many grams in normal food. If the vitamine is regenerated, then it makes more sense that we can get enough. And also, CoQ10 is helped by fulvic acid, which means humans got this before they drank tap water!

 

[Crazycoco]

Thanks again travis! Just note That from your own study they mention the Omega 3 question in a favorable way...

These results are consistent with two rodent feeding stud-ies using implanted human prostate tumors and diets consisting either of omega-6 or omega-3 fatty acids (12, 35). The animals fed linoleic acid developed larger, heavier, and more numerous tumors than the animals who were fed fish oil, suggesting either a growth-stimulatory effect of linoleic acid, a protective effect of eicosapentaenoic acid, or both effects.

Studies of prostate cancer cell lines have also reported that omega-6 fatty acids stimulated growth (36), although a recent study found concomitant inhibition of tumor cell growth by omega-3 fatty acids only at relatively high levels (37).

 

[artlange]

Just note That from your own study they mention the Omega 3 question in a favorable way..

OK Crazycoco, you seem to have a religious belief in the value of omega-3 and continue looking for and posting the meager evidence you find. Good luck with that belief. Tell us how much Omega-3 you are eating and how healthy you are feeling, and how you know the good feeling is from the Omega-3.

The source of True Knowledge is Experiment.

 

[Crazycoco]

Hi artlange. You're quite agressive. Why rational counter-arguments are seen as "religious belief in the value of Omega 3". Be humble. Keep in mind That if you are saying to Harvard researcher or MIT one that ice cream and gummy bears are healthier That Omega 3 and vegetables, they Will lauging at you for "religious belief" and they have data, degrees and phd to feel you ashamed if they want. Be open-minded. Most us, every Time, every field, everywhere, we dont know what we are talking about. We are at best "less wrong in this context". 90% of what we believe now Will be wrong in the next generations as it always been.

What do i eat? What peat recommends

In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements

But to get the Omega 3, i eat pasture eggs, grass fed milk (raw) and the shellfish. That's it.

I eat my vegetables but i found fruit are superior because they have thé privileg to taste good without any added fats wich is valuable for weight loss.

Benefits of Omega 3? Frankly, i'm a honest person, nothing. I see on forums guys whose feel awesome they eat a brocoli, a apple, Only bananas, keto etc. I'm not That kind of person. I've tried things here and there ans many suited me. Except mcdougall diet, in found it to blend for me.
I'm just happy to eat good products.

 

[Xisca]

The source of True Knowledge is Experiment.

I also have a lot of knowledge from trusting when others experiment, hehe...
Cc, just think that RP says that though there is some protection against inflamation from omega 3, this is only a short-term-good : suppression of immunity. If this benefit is MORE IMPORTANT than anything else, then this medicine is the right one for the right client!

I do not believe in any good in looking for PUFA, this is much better to ask yourself why it is possible to eat some without too much damage, and what is protective against them when you have to eat some. And you have to.... they are in every food, and you just have to figure that no food is only PUFA, so those foods have a lot of GOOD stuff in them too!

I would rather eat hemp than sunflower, and I would eat some seeds but not the oil. Why would I leave out the best part of the seed for only the worse?

Think that the good of olive oil is not its fat, it is its oleuropein, maybe, and other stuff, but I would not eat the refined one! And i am happy that it has more MUFA than PUFA. And yes, even milk has some PUFA, so we surely need them a little, and we surely need the right ratio, ok. But is it enough to say that what brings good results in the study is only about having omega 3? If you need to suppress imunity, great, food is medicine, chose your food according to your health goals! Nobody doubts anything about the ratio, but somebody told you that it was more important when PUFA's intake is high. Why in this student don't they look for other reasons than FA profile? There are other parameters in the MD.

Nobody doubts that at first sight, omega 6 is the worse and that for sure anybody should lower it. By no means the meditarranean diet is a high fat diet, and it tends to lower omega 6 which is great. Then, did they say anything about fiber in this diet? It brings SCFA.... Was it taken into account as a benefit of the MD? And how does Lorgeril views sunflower margerine and butter? He was my mothers cardiologist, and he certainly never told her anything about her bad choice. Hope he has better recent views... I posted a link about saturated fats...

 

[Travis]

I think you can make the argument that ω−3 fatty acids inhibit eicosanoid production through competition with ω−6. But if you are not eating ω−6, there is nothing to inhibit.

...just think that RP says that though there is some protection against inflamation from omega 3, this is only a short-term-good : suppression of immunity.

This makes sense to me. There is nothing inherently protective about ω−3. As eicosanoid-inhibitors, they seem to work similar to the way aspirin and indomethacin do.

 

[Xisca]

But if you are not eating ω−6, there is nothing to inhibit.

lol, so there is always a little bit of something to inhibit...

 

[Crazycoco]

Thank you Travis and Xisca for your insights!

I think you can make the argument that ω−3 fatty acids inhibit eicosanoid production through competition with ω−6. But if you are not eating ω−6, there is nothing to inhibit.

I can understand That in theory but in practice, i dont understand what does it mean. Pufa are everywhere. Eggs, cheese, leaves etc. I mean it's impossible to avoid omega 6. So if it is impossible, may be we have something to "inhibit" as you've said.

Thank you again for your replies