The theory of Tocotrienols toxicity.

[Daniil]

I have already created this thread on ggenereux.blog, I duplicate it here.

There is another NON-Peat substance that is given little attention. I remember how in one interview Ray spoke negatively about the addition of tocotrienols and said that it causes an increase in the liver

Tocotrienols are such antioxidants, they belong to the vitamin E family. But the problem is that they are unsaturated and can easily be oxidized. And I am sure that their oxidized metabolites can create problems.

I have noticed that some people have problems with seemingly safe foods, such as coconut oil and olive oil. Someone is experiencing problems only with unrefined coconut oil. I myself, it seems, reacted to cocoa butter for a long time, but I could not understand what was wrong.

Looking through the studies on tocotrienols, I got the impression that someone is trying hard to prove their safety/benefit to us, but I was still able to find some studies that prove their harm.

Effects of palm oil tocotrienol-rich fraction on biochemical and morphological alterations of liver in fenitrothion-treated rats - PubMed

Indiscriminate application of organophosphate (OP) pesticides has led to environmental pollution and severe health problems. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the effect of palm oil tocotrienol-rich fraction (TRF) on biochemical and morphological changes of the liver in rats treated...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Indiscriminate application of organophosphate (OP) pesticides has led to environmental pollution and severe health problems. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the effect of palm oil tocotrienol-rich fraction (TRF) on biochemical and morphological changes of the liver in rats treated with fenitrothion (FNT), a type of OP pesticide. A total of 28 male Sprague-Dawley rats were divided into four groups; control group, TRF-supplemented group, FNT-treated group and TRF+FNT group. TRF (200 mg/kg) was supplemented 30 minutes prior to FNT (20 mg/kg) administration, both orally for 28 consecutive days. Following 28 days of treatment, plasma biochemical changes and liver morphology were evaluated. The body and absolute liver weights were significantly elevated in TRF+FNT group compared to FNT group. TRF administration significantly decreased the total protein level and restored the activity of alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and aspartate aminotransferase (AST) in TRF + FNT group."

Tocotrienols Reverse Cardiovascular, Metabolic and Liver Changes in High Carbohydrate, High Fat Diet-Fed Rats

Tocotrienols have been reported to improve lipid profiles, reduce atherosclerotic lesions, decrease blood glucose and glycated haemoglobin concentrations, normalise blood pressure in vivo and inhibit adipogenesis in vitro, yet their role in the metabolic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here the mice were given diets with a lot of carbohydrates (corn starch) , a lot of fats, a lot of carbohydrates or fats + tocotrienols. Interestingly, the mice in the high-fat group had huge problems compared to the high-carbohydrate group (just look at the tables) . The fat + tocotrienol group had better health than fat. They did not specify the source of fat in the diet, and I suspect that it was a lot of PUFA, such as flaxseed oil. It is logical that antioxidants, even such as tocotrienols, will protect against PUFA. But I was interested in comparing the high-carbohydrate group with and without tocotrienols (although I think they also had a lot of PUFA in their diet). And, they didn't write it in the review !! Mice with tocotrienols had less muscle mass, more abdominal fat, a higher visceral obesity index, higher cholesterol and a slightly larger liver mass (with a smaller total weight).

In addition, in almost all studies, mice/people are given tocotrienols with alpha-tocopherol (although it is known that it blocks the adsorption of tocotrienols). And I notice that the higher the percentage of alpha-tocopherol, the better the results.

Conditions that (I assume) may be directly or indirectly related to tocotrienols:

problems with teeth,
restless legs syndrome,
visceral fat,
fatigue,
bad mood (depression),
nausea,
excessive hairiness,
problems with gaining muscle mass,
NAFLD,
Beri-beri

If you experience any other symptoms after consuming coconut oil, etc - add to the list

So I just made a list of tocotrienol foods.

Main Sources: Annatto, palm oil, coconut oil, cocoa butter, safflower oil, olive oil, barley, rice, oats, corn, wheat, rye (usually the least), hazelnuts (generally all nuts). Also eggs(Tocotrienol content in hen eggs: its fortification by supplementing the feed with rice bran scum oil - PubMed), soy (and soybean oil), flaxseed oil, sea buckthorn, cranberries, plums, kiwi, onions contain it.

Dr. Tan(expert on vitamin E) also lists foods such as sources of tocotrienols in an interview: lard, cauliflower, peas, broccoli, carrots, avocados, apricots, grapes (and grape seed oil), and some meats. But I have not been able to verify this.

Regarding meat, Tocotrienol levels in various tissues of Sprague-Dawley rats after intragastric administration of tocotrienols - PubMed in this study, no tocotrienols were found in the brain and muscles. But other tissues (including gelatin) may contain this. A study on mice, but I think it can be extrapolated to other animals.

I also want to note that the content of tocotrienols in food varies greatly in different studies. Like oxalates, for example. And also the adsorption of tocotrienols with food increases.

I also believe that the main mechanism of alcohol damage to the liver is mediated by tocotrienols, because these are also alcohols and they will be excreted in the same ways as alcohol.

 

[Dr. B]

I asked Ray maybe last year, he said a small amount of tocotrienol contributes to the protective vitamin E action.

aren't tocotrienols more present in the saturated fat sources of vitamin E? like macadamia nuts, coconut oil, palm oil? whereas the PUFA sources have almost no tocotrienol?
tocotrienols being unsaturated means maybe the saturated fat sources protect them somehow? so the problems would especially come if you consume supplement forms of tocotrienol?

 

[Daniil]

I asked Ray maybe last year, he said a small amount of tocotrienol contributes to the protective vitamin E action.

aren't tocotrienols more present in the saturated fat sources of vitamin E? like macadamia nuts, coconut oil, palm oil? whereas the PUFA sources have almost no tocotrienol?
tocotrienols being unsaturated means maybe the saturated fat sources protect them somehow? so the problems would especially come if you consume supplement forms of tocotrienol?

Sources of unsaturated fats, such as flaxseed oil, also contain them.

I wonder if small amounts are how much?

To be honest, I think that for sensitive people(with overloaded aldh) or alcoholics, the harm of tocotrienols will greatly outweigh any potential benefits

 

[Dr. B]

Sources of unsaturated fats, such as flaxseed oil, also contain them.

I wonder if small amounts are how much?

To be honest, I think that for sensitive people(with overloaded aldh) or alcoholics, the harm of tocotrienols will greatly outweigh any potential benefits

it seems they are favored in the tropical saturated fats. the tocotrienol supplements on the market seem to all be from palm oil which is a mostly sfa/mufa oil. i havent verified but someone on the supplements forum was saying dont buy tocotrienol supplements cuz they're so expensive, just eat macadamic nuts. so those may be another good source. i think there was a chart posted for tocotrienols either here or elsewhere, and soybean oil had like the least amount of them, or one other PUFA, and palm oil or something had the most.

 

[Daniil]

it seems they are favored in the tropical saturated fats. the tocotrienol supplements on the market seem to all be from palm oil which is a mostly sfa/mufa oil. i havent verified but someone on the supplements forum was saying dont buy tocotrienol supplements cuz they're so expensive, just eat macadamic nuts. so those may be another good source. i think there was a chart posted for tocotrienols either here or elsewhere, and soybean oil had like the least amount of them, or one other PUFA, and palm oil or something had the most.

I would not particularly trust the tables in the sense that the content of tocotrienols in products varies greatly in different studies. But palm oil and annatto are the leaders in the content of tocotrienols. By the way, I also thought that tocotrienols are one of the reasons why saturated fats can show negative results in some studies.

 

[Dr. B]

I would not particularly trust the tables in the sense that the content of tocotrienols in products varies greatly in different studies. But palm oil and annatto are the leaders in the content of tocotrienols. By the way, I also thought that tocotrienols are one of the reasons why saturated fats can show negative results in some studies.

i wonder how much beef tallow and grass fed milk fat contain?
should fats be minimized overall? whats your current diet like

 

[Daniil]

i wonder how much beef tallow and grass fed milk fat contain?
should fats be minimized overall? whats your current diet like

I don't think it will be in grass-fed meat at all. The herb contains almost no tocotrienols.
Yes, I find fats quite problematic. It seems that all animals in nature adhere to a fairly low-fat diet, the meat of wild animals is usually very low-fat.

I now eat potatoes, apples without peel, sometimes coffee with sugar, meat and recently switched from refined coconut oil to butter (and I think I feel better).

 

[Dr. B]

I don't think it will be in grass-fed meat at all. The herb contains almost no tocotrienols.
Yes, I find fats quite problematic. It seems that all animals in nature adhere to a fairly low-fat diet, the meat of wild animals is usually very low-fat.

I now eat potatoes, apples without peel, sometimes coffee with sugar, meat and recently switched from refined coconut oil to butter (and I think I feel better).

what about milk? arent hormones made from saturated fats btw? cholesterol and SFA, the fat free items lack both SFA and cholesterol

 

[Daniil]

what about milk? arent hormones made from saturated fats btw? cholesterol and SFA, the fat free items lack both SFA and cholesterol

hormones are made from cholesterol, which is produced in the body from sugars (including fructose). I sometimes drink milk, I like it. But maybe I shouldn't do it. In my opinion, this is the only worthwhile product with VA.

 

[yerrag]

I wonder why nature has it such that PUFA comes with tocopherols and SFA comes with tocotrienols generally.

Wonder what happens when you take PUFA with tocotrienols?

Not sure if I have to ask when you take SFA with tocopherols as the answer seems to be nothing.

 

[Daniil]

I wonder why nature has it such that PUFA comes with tocopherols and SFA comes with tocotrienols generally.

Wonder what happens when you take PUFA with tocotrienols?

Not sure if I have to ask when you take SFA with tocopherols as the answer seems to be nothing.

I think that what happened here in the second study I cited will happen, namely, tocotrienols will reduce the toxicity of PUFA. At least in the short term. In the long run, it will probably be worse. Although there are other confounding factors

 

[Dr. B]

I think that what happened here in the second study I cited will happen, namely, tocotrienols will reduce the toxicity of PUFA. At least in the short term. In the long run, it will probably be worse. Although there are other confounding factors

why do tocotrienols reduce their toxicity since both are unsaturated? dont you need SFA with tocotrienols, and tocopherols with PUFA?

 

[Daniil]

why do tocotrienols reduce their toxicity since both are unsaturated? dont you need SFA with tocotrienols, and tocopherols with PUFA?

Because they are antioxidants in themselves, and much stronger than tocopherols. But at the same time, they themselves can be oxidized. Perhaps this sounds paradoxical...

 

[yerrag]

I would not particularly trust the tables in the sense that the content of tocotrienols in products varies greatly in different studies. But palm oil and annatto are the leaders in the content of tocotrienols. By the way, I also thought that tocotrienols are one of the reasons why saturated fats can show negative results in some studies.

If the experiment intentionally not disclose the presence of tocotrienols in those sat fats, it would certainly affect the outcome. It is generally assumed that fats used in experiments are just fat and nothing else.

I think that what happened here in the second study I cited will happen, namely, tocotrienols will reduce the toxicity of PUFA. At least in the short term. In the long run, it will probably be worse. Although there are other confounding factors

The study intentionally left out a very important detail - the kind of fats used. Evil.

 

[Daniil]

Has anyone noticed a deterioration in the condition of teeth from industrial products with palm oil, such as (presumably) various waffles, sweets, chocolate? Also whole grain bread. I noticed.

As I mentioned, I suspect tocotrienols (not sugar) are probably responsible for the deterioration of the teeth.

Also, I seem to have forgotten to mention, it may be related to atherosclerosis.

 

[yerrag]

Has anyone noticed a deterioration in the condition of teeth from industrial products with palm oil, such as (presumably) various waffles, sweets, chocolate? Also whole grain bread. I noticed.

As I mentioned, I suspect tocotrienols (not sugar) are probably responsible for the deterioration of the teeth.

Also, I seem to have forgotten to mention, it may be related to atherosclerosis.

It's hard to make that association but it would be interesting even if anecdotal for you to say use a lot of palm oil and even take Doc Tocotrienol's products for say a year, and then switch to say coconut oil or something with much less or zero tocotrienols.

I don't believe I use products made with palm oil so it's hard to answer your question.

But my teeth condition has been a lot better since joining Ray Peat and applying an eating lifestyle that minimizes endotoxins and by taking more calcium and magnesium in foods. And by getting more vitamin D from sunshine.

Also using Dr. manhart's products and gargling with 150mg of SSKI daily before turning in at night, swallowing also the gargle after.

I am no longer a plaque factory and this has helped me avoid seeing my dentist for yearly dental cleaning as my dentist requires COVID testing and I don't like that.

 

[Daniil]

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[yerrag]

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Yeah. I don't take any of those. Except white rice, which doesn't count because the image says it has tocopherol, even though that is new to me.

 

[Daniil]

Yeah. I don't take any of those. Except white rice, which doesn't count because the image says it has tocopherol, even though that is new to me.

I think the bulk of tocotrienols are in rice bran

 

[yerrag]

I think the bulk of tocotrienols are in rice bran

Thanks. I have stopped eating brown rice for 5 years, after realizing I no longer suffer from hypoglycemia. I went.back to white rice.