Is Peat Wrong After All? The Lyon Heart Study

[Crazycoco]

Hi,

Brief story. I was overweight. Read Gary taubes and went to à very low carb diet (under 40 grams of carbs per day). Lost a lot, no specific problems to mention but was still overweight. Read Ray peat. Ice cream eggs gelatin coffe and coconut oil on the menu: lost more weight! Coconut oil has a big impact on me. I litteraly can't gain weight with coconut oil in my diet. But health is not all about weight loss. And here i Would like to have your opinion about the relevance of a mediterranean diet. I'm french. In france we have a top leading expert in nutrition: Michel de lorgeril. In has conducted a study, RCT, the Lyon heart (1994) and it is because of this study That you are all aware about the mediterranean diet. It's a great study with massive results. Just by changing diet habits, people reduce heart failures, heart attacks by 70%! No drugs has ever done That! Here is the thing: no omega 6 oils but they replaced butter with canola oil and olive oil. Reduced saturated fats a lot. So this experimental study, i think, falsify Ray peat views. Keep in mind That the author of the study think That the results Would have been better if the second group drank wine! (he thinks that alcohol is heart protective and That the cancer-wine studies are entierly bull****, he thinks that coffee is protective too. About dairy he says That cheese is very fine but not better or cream). And everyone knows That Jeanne calment (the ancient oldest woman -french-) drunk a lot of olive oil and wine...
We cannot test a mediteranean diet versus ice cream diet but frankly guys...

What do you think?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Why don't you hang out here for a while before you post something like this. Did you notice the name of this forum? Welcome here and hello! I don't mean to sound down on you, thanks for posting and welcome but you see my point…

 

[Crazycoco]

May it was a bit Awkward. Why i post this? Because a thought ray peat forum was not a sect but open minded people. Let me be clear, i think ray peat is a great scientist and that in this forum very smart people. But i think -i hope- that if people follow ray peat advices (as i still do) it' s based on arguments not on faith.
Regarding that, i think the astonishing results in the Lyon heart study are challenging from a peat paradigm. But yeah, you are Wright: hello everybody!!:))

 

[Pompadour]

What if antioxidants and vitamins in olive oil, red wine and local herbs protect from bad effects of omega 6 fatty acids? It can be that this diet works so well because a lot of things work together in synergie. Lifestyle and sunny weather are also important.

 

[Crazycoco]

Oh yeah i think you're probably right. But my problem with this study from a peat paradigm is the following: If you ask to a "peat mind" before he saw the experiment: "in your opinion, if you replace butter with canola oil to patient with heart problem, what Will happen?" They probably Reply "more heart attacks". Buy the results are the opposit. Not only dramatically less heart problem but less cancer.
In a experimental study, no observational one. With real human beeings, not with rats.
That' s still challenging to me.
Thanks for your answer!

 

[ddjd]

no omega 6 oils but they replaced butter with canola oil and olive oil.

you say no omega 6 but isnt canola oil full of omega 6

 

[Crazycoco]

Yes you are Wright. May be the best important things in the study is the ratio Oméga 6/ Oméga 3, with low level of both

 

[Pompadour]

Some authors say that it is the proportion of omega 6 to omega 3 that matters. And from this point of view canola is not that bad. But is canola oil native for mediterranean diet? I thought it was not traditional in Europe and is something form the new era.

I absolutely adore olive oil and i (want to) believe, that it is good for me:) But canola oil... hm... i doubt it.

Though i didn"t see the study itself. I will google it.

 

[Crazycoco]

Thank you pompadour)

No, canola oil wasn't native from mediterranean diet. It was used because the authors of study thought (and still think) that the ratio Oméga 6/ Omega 3. Keep in mind that before the study, most of scientist laught at thoses frenchmen who pretend cure heart attacks with olive oil and Oméga 3...

But i dont with that "it was note used before" invalidate per se a new form of nutrition (aka paleo arguments). Milk was never used before recent times. Milk is great.
Antibiotics wasn't use until recent Times. Antibiotics save lives.

 

[tankasnowgod]

If you ask to a "peat mind" before he saw the experiment: "in your opinion, if you replace butter with canola oil to patient with heart problem, what Will happen?" They probably Reply "more heart attacks". Buy the results are the opposit. Not only dramatically less heart problem but less cancer.
In a experimental study, no observational one.

Yes, the Lyon Heart study was a pretty successful intervention study. But it did not simply "replace butter with canola oil." Far from it. The following was the recommendations from the intervention diet group-

"Subjects in the experimental group were instructed by the research cardiologist and dietitian to adopt a Mediterranean-type diet that contained more bread, more root vegetables and green vegetables, more fish, fruit at least once daily, less red meat (replaced with poultry), and margarine supplied by the study to replace butter and cream. The saturated fatty acid (15% kcal) and oleic acid (48% kcal but 5.4% kcal 18:1 trans) contents in the margarine were comparable to those in olive oil, with the exception that the margarine was higher in linoleic acid (16.4% versus 8.6% kcal) and more so in α-linolenic acid (4.8% versus 0.6% kcal). Exclusive use of rapeseed oil and olive oil was recommended for salads and food preparation. Use of olive oil exclusively was not recommended because it was not acceptable as the only oil source in the diet. Wine in moderation was allowed with meals."

So, some other things that could have changed with these instructions are more carbs, less overall fat, less iron (by replacing red meat with fish and poultry, and the inclusion of red wine), higher antioxidant intake, possibly less caloric intake, possibly higher protein intake, and so forth. This was also a free living study, so this says more about the general framework than any specific detail.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Just by changing diet habits, people reduce heart failures, heart attacks by 70%! No drugs has ever done That!

Broda Barnes would disagree with you. He details the use of Dessicated Thyroid in his practice, and how (over a 20 year period), the number of heart attacks he saw were 94% fewer than in the Framingham study, which he used for a control group (72 attacks in the Framingham Study vs. 4 in his practice).

 

[Crazycoco]

Thank you
Not more protein intake.
but more starch (GRAINS) another problem from a peatish point of view and more LEGUMES (another problem).
It's true that it is difficult to say what the decisive factor. But two things change a lot: Oméga 6/3 ratio and less saturated fats.

one thing is clear: canola oil doesn't grow per se cancer and doesnt promote heart problems, quite the opposite Here.

If you say that antioxydants protects against pufa, why not, but if you say So, it' s then a différent story: you are saying that pufa is not a problem in an adequat environnement (something ray peat said himself by mentionning something protective in chocolate against linoleic acid...)

I've found a site with details if you want

Steven Hamley: The Lyon Diet Heart Study

 

[tankasnowgod]

Thank you
Not more protein intake.

How do you know that protein intake wasn't increased? More fish was one of the recommendations.

but more starch (GRAINS) another problem from a peatish point of view and more LEGUMES (another problem).
It's true that it is difficult to say what the decisive factor. But two things change a lot: Oméga 6/3 ratio and less saturated fats.

You can't try and figure out a "decisive factor" from a multivariate study. Truthfully, there may not have been a "decisive factor," but instead many factors that contribute to overall results.

one thing is clear: canola oil doesn't grow per se cancer and doesnt promote heart problems, quite the opposite Here.

Nope, that ain't clear from the study, not in the slightest. You simply can't isolate one factor out of several that were changed and make conclusions about that factor alone in regards to the study.

Beyond the study, there is some concern about the high Erucic Acid content of the Rapeseed (which is where Canola Oil comes from). In animals, it's found that a high Erucic acid intake causes toxic effects on the heart. In the US, Canola has to contain less than 2% Erucic Acid because of these possible toxic effects.

 

[omnivoracious]

Hi,

Brief story. I was overweight. Read Gary taubes and went to à very low carb diet (under 40 grams of carbs per day). Lost a lot, no specific problems to mention but was still overweight. Read Ray peat. Ice cream eggs gelatin coffe and coconut oil on the menu: lost more weight! Coconut oil has a big impact on me. I litteraly can't gain weight with coconut oil in my diet. But health is not all about weight loss.

What do you think?

It's interesting that you claim the Taubes and Peat diets work yet you are interested in hopping to yet another diet. What in particular is currently wrong with your health?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Ray doesn't pay a lot of attention to such studies and neither should we.

"Animal studies are usually better for understanding the effects of specific nutrients."

There are too many factors with human nutrition studies that are usually done via diaries and recall, and that are heavily biased anyway.

SO many of these studies are so biased that you can't depend on them. Even the more rigorous studies are usually biased heavily and often wrong.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I object to someone new to this forum who is quoting a study like this. I think this is trolling personally. It is rude at least.

 

[marcar72]

What do you think?

I think I'll fry up a couple cheeseburgers and have them with a Mexican coke for breakfast...

 

[Crazycoco]

About the protein intake i know it from the details of the website that I have mentioned before.
I'm not a épidémiologist, far from eat. I have special competences in it. But again I repeat. I think this study basically disprove some peat assumptions. Take hundreds of people with heart problem and give them:

-MORE STARCH (GRAINS) :not peat

-remove butter and cream : not peat

-more LEGUMES : not peat

-MORE OMÉGA 3: not peat

(Thoses things are not small things, people here really believe thoses things are bad, including me ahah)
Results: less heart attacks less cancer.

I think a good way to test nutrition claims is the following method. It is like that that i moved away from Gary Taubes theories.

Ok Taubes, you say carbs promote obesity? Well How do you explain the leaness of the asian. Taubes cant. So he rewright a book to say "wait it's not carb Its sugar". Yes but How do you explain tribes that thrives on sugar (or my personal case) while they are still lean? He can't.

Ok mcdougall you say fat and milk make you fat? How do you explain the masai? The french paradox? He can't.

So peat. You say that pufa are toxic? Very good arguments for high Oméga 6 buy How do you explain that mediterranean diet with more omega 3 and less saturated fats (So worse saturated fat/pufa ratio) actually SAVED lives in a RCT. They seem far from to be toxic.

"You cant isolate a single factor". Yes, i can peat says Oméga 3 oils promotes cancer and heart diseases. In a real human experiments, it does note, quite the contrary.

 

[Crazycoco]

don't ban me ecstatichamter, give arguments:)
I'm not trolling. I personnally have nothing to sell and i dont follow the mediterranean diet. I'm seeking the truth or the less wrong. I challenged lorgeril from a peating point of view for exemple.
sincerly yours

 

[tankasnowgod]

So peat. You say that pufa are toxic? Very good arguments for high Oméga 6 buy How do you explain that mediterranean diet with more omega 3 and less saturated fats (So worse saturated fat/pufa ratio) actually SAVED lives in a RCT. They seem far from to be toxic.

Welp, since you seem dead set on isolating single factors from multivariate studies done with a dietary recall questionaire, let's delve in and see what actually happened with PUFA in the experimental group according to the website you linked too......


OH WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT!!!!! PUFA was LOWER in the experimental group (4.60% of calories) than in the control group (6.10% of calories), on top of the fact that calories were lower in the experimental group, meaning even less PUFA.

So, by your own twisted logic, it's still..........