Is It OK To Only Have Vitamin E Succinate

Bluebell

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I am wondering if it's OK to take vitamin E succinate (dry vitamin E) as my only vitamin E supplement.

I have tried many different brands of the mixed vitamin E, and I always feel sick/toxic from them. I have tried them mixed into olive oil first, eaten with food, had small amounts, but I always get this reaction.

Vitamin E succinate gives me no problems but it is only the alpha form (d-Alpha Tocopheryl).

Would it be OK to take it, or maybe am I risking an imbalance in the other forms of vitamin E, and I'd be better off taking none?
 

Mittir

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RP recommends mixed tocopherols. He thinks alpha tocopherol works only as an anti oxidant
and does not have the other protective properties of anti-clot, anti- estrogen etc.
I do not remember him saying anything about adverse effects of using d-alpha-tocopherol only.
RP himself stopped using vitamin E. Need for E depends on PUFA storage and intake.
He thinks quality of vitamin E has changed since soy oil industry got into making vitamin E.
I have used both d-alpha-tocopherol and mixed tocopherol ( GNC brand) and there is
better result from mixed tocopherols. In my experience, benefits from blocking the PUFA release
by Niacinamide is way higher than vitamin E of both kinds.
From google search it looks like there are tons of studies on anti-cancer property of
d-alpha tocopherol succinate. In theory alpha-tocopherol and succinate should have same benefits
but these papers seems to indicate succinate has something special in it.
My guess is that processing of E succinate from soy is better than regular d-alpha-tocopherol.
I think it would be a good idea to shoot an email to RP asking if
there is any harm in using only d-alpha tocopherol and what is his thoughts
on Anti-cancer research using Vitamin E succinate.
 

aguilaroja

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Mittir said:
RP recommends mixed tocopherols. He thinks alpha tocopherol works only as an anti oxidant
and does not have the other protective properties of anti-clot, anti- estrogen etc.
I do not remember him saying anything about adverse effects of using d-alpha-tocopherol only.
RP himself stopped using vitamin E. Need for E depends on PUFA storage and intake.
He thinks quality of vitamin E has changed since soy oil industry got into making vitamin E.
I have used both d-alpha-tocopherol and mixed tocopherol ( GNC brand) and there is
better result from mixed tocopherols. In my experience, benefits from blocking the PUFA release
by Niacinamide is way higher than vitamin E of both kinds.
From google search it looks like there are tons of studies on anti-cancer property of
d-alpha tocopherol succinate. In theory alpha-tocopherol and succinate should have same benefits
but these papers seems to indicate succinate has something special in it.
My guess is that processing of E succinate from soy is better than regular d-alpha-tocopherol.
I think it would be a good idea to shoot an email to RP asking if
there is any harm in using only d-alpha tocopherol and what is his thoughts
on Anti-cancer research using Vitamin E succinate.

Here's a link to a historical article by Morton Walker.

http://www.enerex.ca/en/articles/new-ol ... -vitamin-e

Dr. Peat has mentioned the Shutes work on vitamin E in multiple articles. The Shutes reported many good results using vitamin E, which rarely seem achieved with the "modern" commercial forms.
 

Wilfrid

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Hi Bluebell,

Below is Ray's answer to one of my question regarding the different forms of vit E:

" Vitamin E was originally identified as a fertility factor in female rats, and then as an antiestrogenic, antiinflammatory, regulator of coagulation, that protected against the toxic effects of polyunsaturated vegetable oils. Market forces hated the idea that estrogen and PUFA had related toxic effects, and created the substitution of "antioxidation" as the definition of vitamin E. The esters aren't as well absorbed as the plain vitamin E, and aren't as active as antioxidants, but the combination with some substances, as in the succinate, can improve the regulatory functions of vitamin E. By regulating the expression of genes involved in inflammation and estrogen action, vitamin E reduces some harmful processes of oxidation, but the scavenger action is a separate function of the molecule. Tocotrienol has been described as a colorless substance. I think the color in the original vitamin E preparations was the result of a charge transfer complex between small amounts of vitamin K and tocopherols. The impurities, including the very long chain saturated fatty acids and alcohols, were probably important for some of the effects originally studied.
 

Wilfrid

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@mittir,

Some forms of vitamin E ( mainly the alpha-tocopherol form, whether an esterified form or not, but not the one with mixed tocopherols) could enhance clearance of hepatotoxic compounds. Which could explain the "anti-cancer" benefit of it.
In particular, alpha-tocopherol can stimulate the activity of pregnane X receptor, which regulates a lots of genes involved in detoxification of xenobiotics and upregulates phase 1, 2 and 3 enzymes, especially CYP3A.

My :2cents

@ bluebell,

You might be one of the few who are doing better on alpha-tocopherol only rather than on mixed ones.
Have you ever tried any alpha-tocopherol supp ( esterified or not, and without mixed tocopherol) in the past?
Or did you have only bad reactions to mixed ones?
Keep also in mind, that , at least in rodents, the succinate form could elevate prolactin level.
Besides that, hope you're doing well.
 

Bluebell

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@ Mittir, thank you very much!
Interesting you think the processing from the soy could be better for succinate.
I have had a LOT of PUFA before finding Peat, unfortunately, so I think I could use some E.
I think I should email him ... will post back here if he replies.

@aquilaroja, true. The Shute work makes E sound great, make me wish I could take the real stuff.

@wilfrid. hi and thank you for the well wishes! That is a brilliant quote, thankyou. That 1950s E sounds like the bomb. I did ask Ray once if something like it is available now, but he said no. What an opportunity for some company to come along and make it.

Still, it seems I can only tolerate the succinate. I do feel subtly better on it. The mixed ones make me feel toxic for some reason, quite a definite "no" from my body.

I will ask Ray re. long term succinate usage, and ask about the possible prolactin increase too.
 
J

j.

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Bluebell said:
The mixed ones make me feel toxic for some reason, quite a definite "no" from my body.

There was one vitamin E, Swanson Maximum Strength Gamma, that made me feel bad if I swallowed the pill, but not if I swallowed just the liquid, meaning that it was the colorant what was producing a bad reaction.

Do you recall the brands of vitamin E you have tried?
 

charlie

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j. said:
Bluebell said:
The mixed ones make me feel toxic for some reason, quite a definite "no" from my body.

There was one vitamin E, Swanson Maximum Strength Gamma, that made me feel bad if I swallowed the pill, but not if I swallowed just the liquid, meaning that it was the colorant what was producing a bad reaction.
I had no problems with this one. I would just bust the pill in my mouth and then spit out the shell.
 

Bluebell

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@j. yes, ... let me see,

4spectrum - Was a few years ago.
AC Grace - tried this out of the capsule and my lip swelled up, tingled, went red. Didn't have this reaction to others topically.
Thorne Ultimate E
Life Extension Gamma E
I think there might have been others too, maybe the Now Foods basic mixed E.

All of them gave me this reaction of feeling ill/toxic. The last 3 I even tried squeezing out of the capsule and mixing with a fat like butter or olive oil, then mixing with food (I was thinking digestion could be the issue).

then dry E (alpha only) has always been OK - Jarrow Dry E - and now pure bulk d-alpha succinate. Feel fine on these.

I think there must be just something with me where my body just won't accept the mixed tocos. Maybe leaky gut or something? Though it could be anything, maybe just individual differences. Generally I'm quite tough with supplements - i.e. can tolerate most things, have quite a lot & be OK. Only exception is B complex doesn't suit me. & I'm copper toxic.

I'm always up for trying a new mixed E ... maybe some company will come up with a super quality natural non-soy one (I wish).
 
J

j.

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Bluebell said:
I think there must be just something with me where my body just won't accept the mixed tocos. Maybe leaky gut or something?

Maybe soy? These things are from soy usually. Disappointed Thorne didn't work for you. I haven't tried it but it seems to have good ingredients.
 
J

j.

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Bluebell said:
I'm always up for trying a new mixed E ... maybe some company will come up with a super quality natural non-soy one (I wish).

Charlie and I had luck with Swanson Maximum Strength Gamma. But I ran out of luck once the weather became hot and apparently the colorant mixed with the vitamin, it started tasting bad when I took just the liquid.
 

Bluebell

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@aguilaroja thanks again for that article you linked to, I'm reading it now. It makes me wonder if I should try out wheat-germ-derived mixed E.
 

Bluebell

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j. said:
Bluebell said:
I'm always up for trying a new mixed E ... maybe some company will come up with a super quality natural non-soy one (I wish).

Charlie and I had luck with Swanson Maximum Strength Gamma. But I ran out of luck once the weather became hot and apparently the colorant mixed with the vitamin, it started tasting bad when I took just the liquid.

interesting, thanks! I will look into it. Did either of you have issues with not tolerating other brands?
 

Mittir

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@Bluebell
RP mentioned that he thinks it is a possibility that the type of oil mixed with vitamin E alters
it's properties. I think the absence of oil in dry form probably preserve more vitamin E
activities than the one dissolved in PUFA .He also cites a study in his vitamin E article that used
vitamin E succinate. Here is a RP quote from D.R. Page.

My thesis adviser, Arnold Soderwall, did some studies showing that vitamin E extended fertility considerably. I found some of his old Sigma (chemical company) vitamin E still in the freezer, and I was working on the idea that oxidative catalysts in the liver were directly related to estrogen's effects. I would extract lipids from the liver, and use paper chromatography to separate them, and for reference points I used the vitamin E and different quinones (coenzyme Q10, Q6, and benzoquinone). I happened to mix the vitamin E with one of the quinones, and noticed that it turned almost black; all of the quinones had the same effect. Putting the mixture on the paper, the moving solvent separated the original components. Delocalized electrons absorb low energy light, causing a dark color (as in black semiconductors), and Szent-Gyorgyi had expressed wonder about what could cause the dark color of the healthy liver, a color that can't be extracted as a pigment. This experiment convinced me that vitamin E could be one of the participants in delocalizing electrons for activating proteins in the way S-G suggested. However, the technology for manufacturing vitamin E has changed greatly over the years, and I have never found anything sold as vitamin E that produces the same dark colors as that old stuff from the freezer. I don't know whether the powerfully therapeutic (anti-estrogenic, clot-clearing, anti-inflammatory, quinone-reactive) old vitamin E contained "impurities" that were effective, or whether it's that the newer materials contain impurities that reduce their effects.

It was labeled d-alphatocopherol, but it was semi-solid, like crystallized honey.
 

Bluebell

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I love hearing Ray tell of his experiments.

This makes a lot of sense:

"I don't know whether the powerfully therapeutic (anti-estrogenic, clot-clearing, anti-inflammatory, quinone-reactive) old vitamin E contained "impurities" that were effective, or whether it's that the newer materials contain impurities that reduce their effects."

Could be the effect of both even.

I could imagine there were components in the original E that have therapeutic actions, that we don't have the instruments to measure yet - other "vitamins", as yet undiscovered.

Was the original vitamin E made from soy or wheatgerm?

I hope succinate will turn out to be a viable alternative for me.
 

Wilfrid

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Mittir said:
@Bluebell
RP mentioned that he thinks it is a possibility that the type of oil mixed with vitamin E alters
it's properties. I think the absence of oil in dry form probably preserve more vitamin E
activities than the one dissolved in PUFA .He also cites a study in his vitamin E article that used
vitamin E succinate. Here is a RP quote from D.R. Page.

My thesis adviser, Arnold Soderwall, did some studies showing that vitamin E extended fertility considerably. I found some of his old Sigma (chemical company) vitamin E still in the freezer, and I was working on the idea that oxidative catalysts in the liver were directly related to estrogen's effects. I would extract lipids from the liver, and use paper chromatography to separate them, and for reference points I used the vitamin E and different quinones (coenzyme Q10, Q6, and benzoquinone). I happened to mix the vitamin E with one of the quinones, and noticed that it turned almost black; all of the quinones had the same effect. Putting the mixture on the paper, the moving solvent separated the original components. Delocalized electrons absorb low energy light, causing a dark color (as in black semiconductors), and Szent-Gyorgyi had expressed wonder about what could cause the dark color of the healthy liver, a color that can't be extracted as a pigment. This experiment convinced me that vitamin E could be one of the participants in delocalizing electrons for activating proteins in the way S-G suggested. However, the technology for manufacturing vitamin E has changed greatly over the years, and I have never found anything sold as vitamin E that produces the same dark colors as that old stuff from the freezer. I don't know whether the powerfully therapeutic (anti-estrogenic, clot-clearing, anti-inflammatory, quinone-reactive) old vitamin E contained "impurities" that were effective, or whether it's that the newer materials contain impurities that reduce their effects.

It was labeled d-alphatocopherol, but it was semi-solid, like crystallized honey.

This is where everything become more and more confusing.....
Because during my email exchanges with Ray during the last few weeks, he made it clear that the vitamin E he was using was light in color (not dark) and, like he said in his article you quoted, "labeled d-alphatocopherol" but not "d-alphatocopherol with mixed tocopherol"...
Below it's one of his response to my email regarding the vitamin E he used in the past:

" The vitamin E we had in the lab was from Sigma Chemical Co., and the source materials at that time were more varied, probably including wheat germ oil. It was very viscous and light colored. I think it contained the waxy saturated polycosanols and octacosanol. If a product is chosen for the largest number of international units in the smallest capsule, there will be a minimum of soy oil. "

I think that the impurities, which Ray talked about, was probably "the waxy saturated polycosanols and octacosanol".
Carlon labs is making an D- alpha tocopherol acetate which can be labelled as "soy-free" since it's a very concentrated and pure source of E.

http://www.fullspectrumhealth.com/shop/ ... _product=1

This vitamin from Carlson is the only one that meets the criteria, but without the mixed toco, he told me above.
It's also the one which was formulated by carlson for the Shute's center in Canada.
 

Bluebell

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Thanks for clarifying that Wilfrid, I had got it into my head that the original E was very dark.

I might be misunderstanding, but - if the original E was " "labeled d-alphatocopherol" but not "d-alphatocopherol with mixed tocopherol" " does that mean that perhaps we don't need mixed tocopherols after all?

I like the look of those Carlson gems. Do you think they might be better than succinate, or the same in terms of benefit? ... just like the Sigma one from Ray's freezer perhaps?

Sorry to be adding more questions to your generous answers and info!!
 

Mittir

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Bluebell said:
I love hearing Ray tell of his experiments.

This makes a lot of sense:

"I don't know whether the powerfully therapeutic (anti-estrogenic, clot-clearing, anti-inflammatory, quinone-reactive) old vitamin E contained "impurities" that were effective, or whether it's that the newer materials contain impurities that reduce their effects."

Could be the effect of both even.

I could imagine there were components in the original E that have therapeutic actions, that we don't have the instruments to measure yet - other "vitamins", as yet undiscovered.

Was the original vitamin E made from soy or wheatgerm?

I hope succinate will turn out to be a viable alternative for me.

In Josh Rubin Q and A part 1, RP talked about vitamin E. He mentioned that
wheat germ oil were the starting material for vitamin E before 1950s.
He speculates that octacosanol and polycosanol in those vitamin E were responsible
for a good part of benefits that showed in early vitamin E experiments.
He cites a study that showed benefits of using cocoa butter, which has polycosanol.
I think he believes that those long chain alcohols were responsible for considerable
benefits of old vitamin E from wheat germ oil. But he does not say that directly
for lack of strong evidence to support that claim.
In KMUD interview he mentioed that he recommends mixed tocopherols.
 

Mittir

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Correction: I misunderstood his comment about cocoa butter having polycosanol.
He used cocoa butter's example to show cocoa butter's saturated fat
has special beneficial properties. He mentioned that long chain alcohols octacosanol and
polycosanol metabolised into long chain saturated fat.
 
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