Vitamin E Making Me Feel Sick

Gabriel

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I agree with the above quotes 4peatssake, thanks for posting.

"what we desperately need is a recognition of the complexity of life"

Also totally agree. That includes the complexity of the effect of Vitamin E that may very well have deleterious effects in some people, depending on context and individuality. E.g. Vitamin E is a blood thinner, so if you have a (non-diagnosed) genetic coagulatory disorder, it may lead to a fatal bleeding event because counter-regulatory systems that are active in your body to compensate for the genetic variation all the time can't do their job. Maybe nausea is one of the ways to tell the person that he is in risk? I just wanted to add this small remark to the discussion, without forcing anybody to do anything.

Putting vitamin E in a purely positive light, while sweeping possible side effects of high dose supplementation under the carpet is not really appreciating the complexity of life.
 

Gabriel

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The point that Wilfried raised is very interesting.

E.g. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4904009025

"If fed in supranutritional dosages, especially for longer times, a-tocopherol induces Cyp3a11 to levels
which might interfere with drug metabolism."

CYP4A11 is the murine homolog of CYP3A4. It is involved in metabolising many internal and external molecules. So by inducing or suppressing it, the levels of other hormones/molecules can change. This might also be a cause of nausea.

Do you take any other drugs or supplements Bluebell?
 

Gabriel

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Ah, and another thing comes into my mind (sorry can't edit my post anymore): Have you ever tried a pure natural RRR-alpha-tocopherol supplement, one without the other tocopherols? Maybe your body has just a very sensitive detoxification system that wants to get rid of the beta/gamma-tocopherols and tocotreniols that are present in mixed tocopherols. So maybe you'll tolerate pure alpha-tocopherol better. Just another thought.
 
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Bluebell

Bluebell

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Gabriel said:
The point that Wilfried raised is very interesting.

E.g. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4904009025

"If fed in supranutritional dosages, especially for longer times, a-tocopherol induces Cyp3a11 to levels
which might interfere with drug metabolism."

CYP4A11 is the murine homolog of CYP3A4. It is involved in metabolising many internal and external molecules. So by inducing or suppressing it, the levels of other hormones/molecules can change. This might also be a cause of nausea.

Do you take any other drugs or supplements Bluebell?

No, I don't take any drugs or supplements, just a couple of Peat-approved supplements. At the moment, just thyroid and niacinamide.

I was taking some nutrisorb A topically at the time but have stopped that now. In any case, the reaction to 4spectrum E happened when I wasn't taking A.
 

Gabriel

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Did you take Niacinamide while take Vitamin E?

"Nicotinamide inhibits CYP3A4 [...]" pubmed

If yes, Nicotinamide may have inhibited detoxification of the non-alpha-tocopherols.
 
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Bluebell

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Gabriel said:
Ah, and another thing comes into my mind (sorry can't edit my post anymore): Have you ever tried a pure natural RRR-alpha-tocopherol supplement, one without the other tocopherols? Maybe your body has just a very sensitive detoxification system that wants to get rid of the beta/gamma-tocopherols and tocotreniols that are present in mixed tocopherols. So maybe you'll tolerate pure alpha-tocopherol better. Just another thought.

Thank you Gabriel I really appreciate your input!

I have tried "Dry E-400"by Jarrow which is powdered d-alpha tocopheryl succinate only. I'm not sure if that's the one you mention?

It was a while back but I think I was OK on it, but noticed zero difference on it too! However I thought it best not to take it again because I since learned that d-alpha on it's own isn't good, and that mixed tocopherols are better.

I think I might have a sensitive detox system that rushes to get alien substances out. I tend to notice supplement effects fast, but clear them out fast too. I also process general anaesthetic faster than normal.

I'm not sure if that would make me react to E though, I thought the beta/gamma-tocopherols were good, not something my body would rush to clear out. Also I am generally very tolerant to supplements compared to other people. That's why I'm surprised most people seem to be fine with it. Either there's something different about the way I'm "set up", or maybe this is just one of those things that everyone reacts differently and this is a blip.

I was wondering if it could possibly be some kind of hormonal effect due to the wide-ranging action of E against estrogen. Maybe the hormonal change is causing a shift, and some links down the chain, maybe a toxic clear-out. I really don't know though, it's all speculation.
 
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Bluebell

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Gabriel said:
Did you take Niacinamide while take Vitamin E?

"Nicotinamide inhibits CYP3A4 [...]" pubmed

If yes, Nicotinamide may have inhibited detoxification of the non-alpha-tocopherols.

Hm, I did, but only on this last attempt with Thorne Ultimate E. I was taking 2 or 3 100mg tablets per day.

But the other times I took vitamin E (the 4spectrum, unique E, and other ones), I was not taking niacinamide.
 
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Bluebell

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Here's another random idea.

All the times I was trying E, I was very hypothyroid but didn't know it. Only now am I coming out of that, with Peat diet plus thyroid.

Maybe my low metabolism body, with high adrenalin/cortisol, and high estrogen, somehow didn't like the E.

Though I would have thought there would be many others in my position too, who'd also have problems with hypothyroid/E - so maybe that's not a viable theory.
 

4peatssake

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Bluebell said:
Here's another random idea.

All the times I was trying E, I was very hypothyroid but didn't know it. Only now am I coming out of that, with Peat diet plus thyroid.

Maybe my low metabolism body, with high adrenalin/cortisol, and high estrogen, somehow didn't like the E.

Though I would have thought there would be many others in my position too, who'd also have problems with hypothyroid/E - so maybe that's not a viable theory.
Have you tried Progest E Bluebell?

Progesterone Summaries
 

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Gabriel

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I am equally confused as you as to whether alpha-tocopherol alone, mixed tocopherols and also whether low-dose or higher-doses are the way to go. From what I have read, there is no scientific consensus on that. Ray Peat said several times that in an organism with low PUFA, the requirement of Vitamin E is very low.

After more reading into the research of Ms. Traber (e.g. here), she points out that the body actively retains alpha-tocopherol and preferentially excretes/metabolizes the other tocopherols. A big regulator of this process appears to be the alpha-tocopherol transfer protein, which has different affinities for the different tocopherols (i.e. 100% for RRR-alpha-tocopherol, 9% for gamma-tocopherol).

How long are you avoiding PUFA now? Would you consider yourself being high in PUFA?
Have you ever tried taking the E longer? So that the first adaption steps wear off?
Have you tried lower doses (i.e. 100IE daily, or 300IE once weekly as Ray Peat once suggested)?
 
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Bluebell

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4peatssake said:
Bluebell said:
Here's another random idea.

All the times I was trying E, I was very hypothyroid but didn't know it. Only now am I coming out of that, with Peat diet plus thyroid.

Maybe my low metabolism body, with high adrenalin/cortisol, and high estrogen, somehow didn't like the E.

Though I would have thought there would be many others in my position too, who'd also have problems with hypothyroid/E - so maybe that's not a viable theory.
Have you tried Progest E Bluebell?

Progesterone Summaries

Hello 4peatssake, nice to see you!

No I am not taking it, but I'm definitely considering it. I think getting my progesterone straight could be really helpful, but I'm still in the process of researching and understanding it. In the meantime I am sorting out my diet and getting my thyroid function normal. I've also heard that fixing hypothyroid alone can normalise progesterone levels, so we'll see.
 
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Bluebell

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Gabriel said:
I am equally confused as you as to whether alpha-tocopherol alone, mixed tocopherols and also whether low-dose or higher-doses are the way to go. From what I have read, there is no scientific consensus on that. Ray Peat said several times that in an organism with low PUFA, the requirement of Vitamin E is very low.

After more reading into the research of Ms. Traber (e.g. here), she points out that the body actively retains alpha-tocopherol and preferentially excretes/metabolizes the other tocopherols. A big regulator of this process appears to be the alpha-tocopherol transfer protein, which has different affinities for the different tocopherols (i.e. 100% for RRR-alpha-tocopherol, 9% for gamma-tocopherol).

How long are you avoiding PUFA now? Would you consider yourself being high in PUFA?
Have you ever tried taking the E longer? So that the first adaption steps wear off?
Have you tried lower doses (i.e. 100IE daily, or 300IE once weekly as Ray Peat once suggested)?

Thank you Gabriel! That information from Ms. Traber sounds really interesting. I'll read at that link and think about it. Maybe I'll be so bold as to email her and ask.

Let's see, I started the Peat diet at the start of May (100% Peat all at once), so no PUFAs for over 2 months. Early days yet. Immediately I felt better within 1-2 days, and have carried on doing well on it.

Oh yes, I consider myself a very high PUFA person! From taking fish oil, flax oil, other oils, and lecithin. So I've got that all packed away and hopefully being got rid of.

I think I have tried taking E longer, years ago, and I seem to remember the not feeling good does wear off a bit. The recent two experiments (unique E, and then Ultimate E) felt unpleasant enough for me not to want to continue at all. That is something I started to think about moments before I read your comment though. If it is a beneficial re-balancing process, then the bad effects should lessen over time (like 1-2 weeks, I would hope).

No, I haven't tried taking smaller doses than 400 IU. I think I might try small amounts, maybe 100IU or less per day, in olive oil and slowly build it up. I'd aim to avoid feeling bad during the process, so I can carry on enjoying life and being productive. If eventually I can take a whole Thorne 500IU and feel fine/better, that would be my answer. Also it's possible I can only acheive this when I'm healthier.
 

kiran

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Bluebell said:
Oh yes, I consider myself a very high PUFA person! From taking fish oil, flax oil, other oils, and lecithin. So I've got that all packed away and hopefully being got rid of.

No, I haven't tried taking smaller doses than 400 IU. I think I might try small amounts, maybe 100IU or less per day, in olive oil and slowly build it up. I'd aim to avoid feeling bad during the process, so I can carry on enjoying life and being productive. If eventually I can take a whole Thorne 500IU and feel fine/better, that would be my answer. Also it's possible I can only acheive this when I'm healthier.

I used to not be able to tolerate large doses (400IU used to be too much) of vitamin E either. I think it's because of the high PUFA levels. I suggest using lower amounts of vitamin E for a while. I think I could tolerate larger doses after having been low PUFA for a few months.

I'm sure that Ray mentions this somewhere. Something along the lines of vit E causing toxicity when PUFA levels are high.
 

Gabriel

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If you have trouble getting the fulltext, this one (one of her most recent overviews) is open-access.
 
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Bluebell

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kiran said:
I used to not be able to tolerate large doses (400IU used to be too much) of vitamin E either. I think it's because of the high PUFA levels. I suggest using lower amounts of vitamin E for a while. I think I could tolerate larger doses after having been low PUFA for a few months.

I'm sure that Ray mentions this somewhere. Something along the lines of vit E causing toxicity when PUFA levels are high.

Kiran, thanks so much for letting me know about this. That could be the issue for me, I do have massive amounts of PUFAs in my body.

It would explain things pretty well. I hope it is the answer!

That is very good to hear you can tolerate larger amounts of E. What amounts can you take all at once now ... 400IU, or more?

If you ever come across the Ray reference on that again, I'd be very grateful to hear it.
 
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Bluebell

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Gabriel said:
If you have trouble getting the fulltext, this one (one of her most recent overviews) is open-access.

I downloaded it, very interesting and readable too! Thank you.

She has some different views to Ray, thinking that polyunsaturated acids are essential to life.

According to her that the non-alpha tocopherols are seen as xenobiotics by the body and got rid of, so I guess she thinks "natural mixed tocopherol" supplements are not ideal.

"Thus, the consensus of reports
provides strong evidence that the body recognizes α-tocopherol as a vitamin, while even low
concentrations of the other dietary tocols are recognized as xenobiotics and are metabolized
and excreted."

"The other non-α-tocopherol forms are readily metabolized by xenobiotic
pathways likely because these forms are not as effective antioxidants and therefore should be
removed promptly from the body."

I haven't read the studies she refers to, but I wouldn't have thought that alpha tocopherol being retained, and the other tocopherols being excreted, wouldn't necessarily mean that the other tocopherols are not good for the body.
 
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Bluebell

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Thanks so much for helping me on this, everyone.

At the moment, I'm thinking the issue is high PUFAs in my body.

I'll try 100IU at a time of ultimate E, diluted in olive oil, with food. I'll ramp it up really slowly, and at the slightest hint of sick/ill/headache I'll back down again.

I might also try purchasing some different forms of E and experimenting with them.

Will report back here anything of note. If anyone has any other ideas on this, please do say, I'm most grateful.
 
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Bluebell

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Bluebell said:
I haven't read the studies she refers to, but I wouldn't have thought that alpha tocopherol being retained, and the other tocopherols being excreted, wouldn't necessarily mean that the other tocopherols are not good for the body.

Sorry this does not read well, I meant:

I haven't read the studies she refers to, but I wouldn't have thought that alpha tocopherol being retained, and the other tocopherols being excreted, would necessarily mean that the other tocopherols are not good for the body.
 

Gabriel

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Yeah that is a good point Bluebell, just because something is preferentially excreted does not mean it is bad for the body.

Maybe one of us should e-mail her ask what her exact stance is on pure alpha or mixed tocopherol supplements. Maybe we could also get some more info from Ray Peat, does he have an opinion on that? And also ask why some people seemingly can't tolerate higher doses.

Trying a lower doser sounds like a good idea, I'm looking forward for your experiences!
 
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Bluebell

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Yes, good idea. I think I should email Ray again and explain the reaction I got in a bit more detail, and ask him what it means. I'll also ask re. pure alpha or mixed. I always tend to back off from bothering him unless I really need it, but I think this would be worth it and hopefully help anyone else with E problems too.

Good idea to email Ms. Traber too - I'll go ahead and do it, and get that reply before emailing Ray - let me know if there's anything special you'd like included.

Will report back with replies here.
 
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