Vitamin E Making Me Feel Sick

Gabriel

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Nausea is clearly a sign that your body wants to get rid of the supplemental Vitamin E. Don't force something on your body that it doesn't want. Supplements are inferior to real foods.

If you want clarity, buy some soy oil and try the same dose (ml) as with the Vitamin E. Personally, I think it is a Vitamin E effect and not due to the soy.
 

Wilfrid

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Gabriel,

Don't you think that you made a very strong statement regarding "supplements being inferior to real foods"?
Let's take one example which I'm sure you are already aware of...the vitamin B12.
The vitamin B12 in food is bound to animal proteins and must be freed,right?
The complicated B12 metabolism process, which is far more complex than that for any other vitamin, can break down at any point. For example, people who have pernicious anemia or atrophic gastritis or IBD or intestinal surgery involving partial or complete removal of the ileum( would you agree that this short list of pathologies are a major concern for, let's say, millions of people?) are often unable to get enough amounts of the vitamin, it's just that their bodies can't absorb or use it. even if they eat plenty of "real" foods containing naturally occuring cobalamin.
So, how we treat them to prevent any ,sometimes deadly, complications?
By injections of synthetic "non-natural" B12 to save their lives.....So, I would say that in a perfect world supplements are indeed inferior to real foods but nowdays it's just, this my opinion, simply not true.
 

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J

j.

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Wilfrid said:
"Pure vitamin E doesn't have any toxic effects, except when it's enough to irritate the intestine, probably because of viscosity."

The question is, where in the world do you get pure vitamin E?
 
J

j.

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Gabriel said:
Nausea is clearly a sign that your body wants to get rid of the supplemental Vitamin E.

The sign isn't clear at all because it could be the body trying to get rid of the soy.
 

Gabriel

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Yes, I meant it the way you explained it. Generally real foods are better than supplements but in some cases indeed a supplement is helpful. However, if a supplement makes you feel bad, I would not advise to trick the body into liking it. You may do more harm than good by doing that.

Overall, we are believing too much in supplements. Especially US citizens, who grow up in a "supplemental-society" that teaches them that their body only works if they pop a pill (or multiple) every day. I say that because I experienced how this issue is viewed and handled with very differently in other societies (I lived in both US, Asia and Europe). I think Ray Peat has a pretty similar view on that issue so I wouldn't regard my view as being so radical.
 

Wilfrid

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Gabriel said:
Yes, I meant it the way you explained it. Generally real foods are better than supplements but in some cases indeed a supplement is helpful. However, if a supplement makes you feel bad, I would not advise to trick the body into liking it. You may do more harm than good by doing that.

Overall, we are believing too much in supplements. Especially US citizens, who grow up in a "supplemental-society" that teaches them that their body only works if they pop a pill (or multiple) every day. I say that because I experienced how this issue is viewed and handled with very differently in other societies (I lived in both US, Asia and Europe). I think Ray Peat has a pretty similar view on that issue so I wouldn't regard my view as being so radical.

Agree. :D
 

Gabriel

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j. said:
Gabriel said:
Nausea is clearly a sign that your body wants to get rid of the supplemental Vitamin E.

The sign isn't clear at all because it could be the body trying to get rid of the soy.

I think trying a spoon of soybean oil should be a good way to find out about that. I'd be interested to find out what was the cause in the end.
 
J

j.

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Gabriel said:
I think trying a spoon of soybean oil should be a good way to find out about that. I'd be interested to find out what was the cause in the end.

At least for me, soy caused a bad reaction too. I was taking vitamin A with soybean oil, felt really awful, even applying it through the skin, then tried another vitamin A without soy and I didn't react at all, but my dandruff disappeared. I think there is a lot more evidence of soy's potential for creating bad reactions than vitamin E.
 
OP
Bluebell

Bluebell

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So no-one else apart from j. feels bad on vitamin E like me?

I can have soy lecithin, tablespoons full, without problems (I don't take it now of course). So I don't think I have issues with soy products in general. If I had a teaspoon of soy oil, I'd take it to experiment, but I don't think I'd have an issue with it.

Perhaps there is something different about the actual vitamin E when it comes from soy.

Another test worth doing would be for me to take 500 IU of purely E from sunflower seeds (the one Ray said isn't any good). Then I'd find out if the vitamin E form from soy is bothering me. I think the PUFA effect would be negligible from 25 drops. Maybe I'll get a bottle and try.

I'll also definitely do the Thorne E in olive oil and will report back.
 

Gabriel

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Did some digging. Beware these are non-peat opinions.

"In rare cases, vitamin E supplementation has been associated with dizziness, fatigue, headache, weakness, blurred vision, abdominal pain, diarrhea, nausea, or flu-like symptoms (particularly when used in high doses). "
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitami ... ION=safety

I believe I have noticed an unusually high prevalence of emotional disorders with dosages of 800 IU/day. The common affective reactions include depression, withdrawal, tiredness, mood swings, loss of confidence, and so on. It is difficult to say whether these symptoms always antedated vitamin E intake. In any case, it is a near certainty that vitamin E does not relieve these feelings and probably aggravates them.
http://archderm.jamanetwork.com/article ... eid=543106

Wright asserted: "There's never been a case reported of vitamin E toxicity. None of my patients have ever had any problems" (Prevention, February 1978, p 74).

This widely held attitude deserves scrutiny because it could pose a major public health concern. I continue to
encounter patients with problems that seem to have been caused or aggravated by self-medication with vitamin E (used here to designate the various tocopherols) in high dosages.2-4 The more serious ones include the following: (1) thrombophlebitis, pulmonary embolism, or both (my series now exceeds 80 such patients, averaging 62 years of age; four had recurrences on resuming vitamin E treatment); (2) hypertension (22 patients), generally with prompt lowering or normalization of the blood pressure on
stopping vitamin therapy; (3) severe fatigue; (4) gynecomastia in both men and women; and (5) breast tumors perhaps necessitating biopsy. An estrogenic-like action—also suggested in case reports—might explain the partial relief of menopausal symptoms afforded by vitamin E.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... eid=359375
 
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Bluebell

Bluebell

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Thanks Gabriel for looking those out, I really appreciate it. I will check out the links in detail. So often people say all the problems with E are caused by using the isolated d-Alpha Tocopherol alone, and mixed is OK, but that last quote suggests otherwise.
 

Mittir

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Feb 20, 2013
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@ Gabriel

You did not cite any scientific studies to make your point. You are quoting opinions of some doctors.
If those doctors had training in science they would have done a chemical analysis of supplements
before writing their piece. They do not know what is in that vitamin E capsule.
You have been doing this anti vitamin E posting for quite sometime. Firstly, you are bringing
high dose concerns. Have you read Ray peat's article on vitamin E? Do you know why and how much
vitamin E he recommends?
Few months ago there was a thread on vitamin E discussion on meta-analysis on high dose of vitamin E.
I cited a study where they got different result using same data but different methods.
If you think Ray Peat is wrong about vitamin E, please read his article on vitamin E and then
make a post on " Ray Peat debate" section and prove him wrong.
 

Gabriel

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Yes, I recall that study and I think I replied to you then but never received a response on my remarks.

I don't intend to prove him wrong, I posted the above quotes to show that other people have observed side effects similar to the ones described by Bluebell while on Vitamin E. Yes those can be due to additives, but likewise, they can also be due to the Vitamin E. And yes they can also be due to synthetic vs natural vitamin E.

From my perspective, everything that has an effect can also have a side effect. I don't see why this shouldn't apply to Vitamin E, especially when you take doses that can hardly be attained by diet.
 

Mittir

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From my perspective, everything that has an effect can also have a side effect. I don't see why this shouldn't apply to Vitamin E, especially when you take doses that can hardly be attained by diet.

I think you completely misunderstood the purpose of this forum.
Your perspective or my perspective is completely irrelevant here.
Only Ray Peat's perspective matters here. This is not an open health forum
where anything goes ,from Paleo to Atkins.

On the welcome page we have

Welcome to the Ray Peat Forum!
"A place to discuss everything Ray Peat."

Ray Peat recommends Milk and Sugar. But any one can find thousands of published
scientific articles showing how bad these are. If someone is convinced Milk and sugar
are bad then there is no point for him/her to join this forum and express " my perspective".
We have the debate section and non peat areas for people who wants to criticize RP ideas or wants
to represent alternative views.But Other part of Forum is strictly for Ray Peat Ideas and perspective.
 

Gabriel

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Your perspective or my perspective is completely irrelevant here. Only Ray Peat's perspective matters here.

This reduces the function of a forum to absurdity. Everything one says is his perspective to a certain extend. There is no one truth, no one perspective. If all our perspectives are irrelevant, I think we should all stop posting here now immediately and have Ray Peat answer all the thousands of questions himself.

Vitamin E is an element of the Ray Peat diet and hence can be illuminated from several angles. I think that is well within the scope of this forum. I am not posting anything related to Paleo or Atkins here.

I also dislike your authoritarian way of trying to silence me. That is very Un-Peat in my opinion.
 

Wilfrid

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@ Mittir,

Don't you think that vitamin E, like any active substance, could indeed have some side effects due to highly personnal sensitivities?
Vitamin E is metabolized, like drugs, through the Cytochrome P450 pathway, so it seems that "side effects" could still happen.This was already demonstrated at least in-vitro.
I put a link below from Maret G. Traber, one of the most leading specialist on vitamin E.
If you want her to give you more details on that, you could use her email address in the link.
She answers quickly and can provide scientific references ( and just to be clear, she favors "natural mixed tocopherols" instead of synthetic isolated DL form....)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14989258

Don't want to start a polemic here, just to be less categoric about vitamin E safety.
 

4peatssake

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Bluebell said:
Hi there,

Ok, so I've been trying to take Vitamin E.

For various reasons I think I would really benefit from it. I'm also totally convinced by Peat's writings on the benefits, and what the Shutes say. In fact I'd really like to experiment with high doses of 2000 IU or more.

My problem is I get really sick (nauseous) when I take it. I have tried many different brands, such as: 4spectrum, Unique E, Thorne's Ultimate E. The dose is 400 IU. The last one I tried was Thorne's. This time I even tried squeezing it out of the capsule and dissoving it with melted butter before putting it on my potato, so it would absorb well.

After I take it, it feels fine at first, but once it starts digesting I feel nauseous and just "ill" in my body and this goes on for hours. Kind of nauseous all over not just in my tummy. Last time I also got a headache from it the next morning (usually I never get headaches).

However, my skin looked very noticeably glowing from it, which indicates to me I need the stuff. I wonder if I need it SO much, that it is clearing out toxins, or changing processes for the better in my body which at first feel bad because they are such a strong change.

I wondered if I could not tolerate the soy. However, pre-Peat I could take large amounts of soy lecithin (don't ask!) without any problems whatsoever. I am generally pretty tolerant to supplements etc. as well.

It seems to me that no-one else seems to have this problem, or no-one I've heard of or found through googling.

I would LOVE to get to the bottom of this and get the benefits of E, so if you have any theories or comments I'd be very grateful and pleased to hear them.

Thanks so much!
Bluebell
This is Bluebell's original post.

She is clear that she is "totally convinced" by Ray Peat and the Shute brothers' research into vitamin e and its benefits.

This is the context for this discussion. Mittir is exactly right that the Ray Peat section of the forum is where the discussion is focused on Ray Peat.

If you disagree with Ray on Vitamin E or anything else, please post it in the debate section of the forum.

It is not absurd for the forum to be structured this way. It is the method that has been chosen to separate the Peat from the chaff and keep this area of the forum focused on discussions about the work of Ray Peat and his nutritional recommendations.
 

4peatssake

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Gabriel said:
Did some digging. Beware these are non-peat opinions.

"In rare cases, vitamin E supplementation has been associated with dizziness, fatigue, headache, weakness, blurred vision, abdominal pain, diarrhea, nausea, or flu-like symptoms (particularly when used in high doses). "
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitami ... ION=safety

I believe I have noticed an unusually high prevalence of emotional disorders with dosages of 800 IU/day. The common affective reactions include depression, withdrawal, tiredness, mood swings, loss of confidence, and so on. It is difficult to say whether these symptoms always antedated vitamin E intake. In any case, it is a near certainty that vitamin E does not relieve these feelings and probably aggravates them.
http://archderm.jamanetwork.com/article ... eid=543106

Wright asserted: "There's never been a case reported of vitamin E toxicity. None of my patients have ever had any problems" (Prevention, February 1978, p 74).

This widely held attitude deserves scrutiny because it could pose a major public health concern. I continue to
encounter patients with problems that seem to have been caused or aggravated by self-medication with vitamin E (used here to designate the various tocopherols) in high dosages.2-4 The more serious ones include the following: (1) thrombophlebitis, pulmonary embolism, or both (my series now exceeds 80 such patients, averaging 62 years of age; four had recurrences on resuming vitamin E treatment); (2) hypertension (22 patients), generally with prompt lowering or normalization of the blood pressure on
stopping vitamin therapy; (3) severe fatigue; (4) gynecomastia in both men and women; and (5) breast tumors perhaps necessitating biopsy. An estrogenic-like action—also suggested in case reports—might explain the partial relief of menopausal symptoms afforded by vitamin E.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... eid=359375
This is typical mainstream western medicine trash which most of us here have run from the hills from - with good reason.

Let's hear from Ray Peat about this so-called hallowed establishment, in particular its longstanding deleterious view of nutrition.

Ray Peat said:
Nutrition is one of the most important sciences, and should certainly be as prestigious and well financed as astrophysics and nuclear physics, but while people say “it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure that out,” no one says “it doesn’t take a nutritionist to understand that.” Partly, that’s because medicine treated scientific nutrition as an illegitimate step-child, and refused throughout the 20th century to recognize that it is a central part of scientific health care. In the 1970s, physicians and dietitians were still ridiculing the idea that vitamin E could prevent or cure diseases of the circulatory system, and babies as well as older people were given “total intravenous nutrition” which lacked nutrients that are essential to life, growth, immunity, and healing. Medicine and science are powerfully institutionalized, but no institution or profession has existed for the purpose of encouraging people to act reasonably.

In this environment, most people have felt that subtleties of definition, logic and evidence weren’t important for nutrition, and a great amount of energy has gone into deciding whether there were “four food groups” or “seven food groups” or a “nutritional pyramid.” The motives behind governmental and quasi-governmental nutrition policies usually represent something besides a simple scientific concern for good health, as when health care institutions say that Mexican babies should begin eating beans when they reach the age of six months, or that non-whites don’t need milk after they are weaned. In a culture that discourages prolonged breast feeding, the effects of these doctrines can be serious.

After a century of scientific nutrition, public nutritional policies are doing approximately as much harm as good, and they are getting worse faster than they are getting better.

In this culture, what we desperately need is a recognition of the complexity of life, and of the political-ecological situation we find ourselves in. Any thinking which isn’t “system thinking” should be treated with caution, and most contemporary thinking about health neglects to consider relevant parts of the problem-system. “Official” recommendations about salt, cholesterol, iron, unsaturated and saturated fats, and soybeans have generally been inappropriate, unscientific, and strongly motivated by business interests rather than by biological knowledge.


Source Bold and larger font size are mine.
 

4peatssake

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Age
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Ray Peat said:
I think it's important that we don't allow the drug publicists to obscure the broad importance of substances such as aspirin, vitamin E, progesterone, and thyroid. For 60 years, a myth that was created to sell estrogen has harmed both science and the health of many people.

Source
 
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