Help Can't Eat Anything Debilitating Excess Saliva

Soren

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
1,194
Long story short whenever I eat pretty much anything my body starts to produce excess saliva often to the point where it causes me to vomit. This has developed over the past 3 months and slowly got worse but yesterday it really was the worst ever. I ate a pizza and about 40 minutes later I threw up violently. I don´t feel sick I just have just such an excess production of saliva that it causes me to gag.

I've taken a number of steps to try to mitigate this issue but they only seem to temporarily reduce it and it now seems to have come back with a vengeance. I've taken activated charcoal and that seems to have improved things somewhat but it always returns and it is not fully eradicated.

I´ve assumed that it may be some kind of bacteria or parasite that is causing this so this morning I decided to do a gelatin/sugar fast to see if I could take care of the problem. I didn't think sugar or gelatine would cause as much an issue but I was wrong, caused the exact same problem.

I just took a large dose of Methylene blue and that seems to have stopped the issue for the time being or it could just be that the gelatine and sugar is no longer in my stomach so the body has stopped producing the saliva. I've got a tablespoon of activated charcoal ready to go which I am going to take later.

The only change I made about 3-4 months ago was I started taking 1 gram of shilajit a day, 500mg of vitamin E daily. I suppose it could be one of these two supplements that is causing the problem. The vitamin E is Non-gmo sunflower based and mixed with MCT oil but I do think it may be causing me some digestive issues. I have read that in some that vitamin E can cause an auto-immune response. I suppose it could also be the shilajit but I have been unable to find any info as to how it would be doing this.

My final theory is that it is down to a probiotic I took for 2 weeks about 3 months ago. This probiotic is spore based and claimed to reduce endotoxin-bacteria and contained the strains, Bacillus clausii, Bacillus subtilis, Bacillus coagulans. I took this for a few weeks before stopping because I thought it was causing me digestive issues but now I think it might have been the vitamin E.

Anyway I am stopping all supplementation today and am going to try to eat nothing/as little as possible. Anyone have any advice or idea what might be causing this please let me know it is getting to the point now where I can't eat anything without coughing up saliva for 30 minutes afterwards which makes it very unpleasant for myself and those around me.
 

Soren

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
1,194
Seems like the methylene blue is helping, had two doses of 3mg and I did not have as bad a reaction as I normally do at lunch. I am worried about the serotonin effects though so have taken cypro to help prevent it.

I also have had two doses of Lapodin and two doses of defibron.
 

X3CyO

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2016
Messages
456
low stomach ph?

whats your protein intake?

are you high carb?

that may be a lot of vitamin e. how long have you been avoiding pufa? how much body-fat are you trying to saturate? half of that is good for prevention for people who cant avoid, but if you're already avoiding may cause issues. are you taking vitamin k/a with it?
 

S-VV

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
458
Take an anticholinergic. Cyproheptadine for example. Add an antiemetic as needed for symptomatic relief. This is not a cure, but will help you eat. Many 1st gen. antihistamines are anticholinergic + antiemetic
 

Soren

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
1,194
Take an anticholinergic. Cyproheptadine for example. Add an antiemetic as needed for symptomatic relief. This is not a cure, but will help you eat. Many 1st gen. antihistamines are anticholinergic + antiemetic

Been taking cyproheptadine throughout was actually the first thing I started taking when this began, at first it seemed to help but now it doesn't seem to work anymore. I'm still taking it but it does not seem to reduce the symptoms anymore.
 

Soren

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
1,194
low stomach ph?

whats your protein intake?

are you high carb?

that may be a lot of vitamin e. how long have you been avoiding pufa? how much body-fat are you trying to saturate? half of that is good for prevention for people who cant avoid, but if you're already avoiding may cause issues. are you taking vitamin k/a with it?

Was taking plenty of vitamin K2 10mg of mk4 and 200mcg of mk7 per day. Been avoiding PUFA since I discovered peat 4 years ago. I had been taking the vitamin E usually when I have a large meal to counter whatever small amount of PUFA I might encounter and to reverse damage done from years before and to help prevent the build up of lipofuscin.

Protein intake is high (at least 100g per day), get in high amount of carbs too.
 

X3CyO

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2016
Messages
456
Was taking plenty of vitamin K2 10mg of mk4 and 200mcg of mk7 per day. Been avoiding PUFA since I discovered peat 4 years ago. I had been taking the vitamin E usually when I have a large meal to counter whatever small amount of PUFA I might encounter and to reverse damage done from years before and to help prevent the build up of lipofuscin.

Protein intake is high (at least 100g per day), get in high amount of carbs too.

Interesting.
What were you eating? how much of that protein is gelatin?


When I first started I went through a phase of gelatin, milk, and orange juice which made me lose interest in other food for some time. It eventually gave me issues with sugar; Major diarrhea/fatigue/brain fog. I bumped up the gelatin/milk and it went away, but eventually hit a wall where I wouldn't crave anything else, but just wasn't feeling well. Had issues with appetite and nausea. (Vitamin e in high amounts also caused me nausea; I use the liquid though so I can taste when its too much. I'd imagine pill form would be harder to notice.)

I forced meat, and my appetite rapidly came back. Sugar intolerance stayed for some time after, but went away.

If it was a ph issue I'd do that again, and try out vinegar too. Maybe some adobo? Decent amount of water too. Remove refined sugars for now since it can tank your B vitamins. Maybe supplement a small amount of zinc if you're too nauseaus to do any of the above. Green papaya salad sounds good too; great for protein digestion. Tastes awesome. Mostly insoluble fiber.

Might make some tonight, that sounds awesome.

Hows coffee affect your nausea? Might be ok to add in to stimulate bile/digestion, and paralyze the intestines temporarily. I'd test a hot tbsp or so first just incase. Im sure throwing up coffee wouldn't be the greatest experience haha.

edit:
I remember increasing salt also helping with appetite itself if thats a problem.
 

mrchibbs

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2017
Messages
2,465
Location
Atlantis
@Soren

This is very puzzling, I have no idea what could be causing this, but let's hope somebody has an insight.
 

S-VV

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
458
Been taking cyproheptadine throughout was actually the first thing I started taking when this began, at first it seemed to help but now it doesn't seem to work anymore. I'm still taking it but it does not seem to reduce the symptoms anymore.
You may have to up the dosage or find a different anticholinergic (butyl scopolamine, most antispasmodics etc...) . If you stop eating the problem will spiral down, and will make it harder to stop.
 

Soren

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
1,194
Took another 3mg of Methylene blue as well as another dose of defibron, I think this is helping as the symptoms have reduced significantly. I will be taking another dose of Activated charcoal before bed.

Anyone curious as to why I am taking the defibron it is for the anti-parasitic and anti-microbial effects

Defibron
Abtimicrobial, antiparasitic
Methyl palmitate, an acaricidal compound occurring in green walnut husks. - PubMed - NCBI (MP)
Identification of ant repellent allomone produced by social waspPolistes fuscatus (Hymenoptera: Vespidae). - PubMed - NCBI (MP)
In vitro study of biological activity of four strains of Burkholderia gladioli pv. agaricicola and identification of their bioactive metabolites us... - PubMed - NCBI (MS)
Isolation and characterization of chemical constituents of Stoechospermum marginatum (Dictyotales, Phaeophyta) and their antimicrobial activity. - PubMed - NCBI (MM

Hoping that things continue to improve don´t want to have to need to take MB consistently at this dose I know I can do a maintenance dose and my saturation levels will maintain a physiological level but I don´t know if this will be enough to suppress the symptoms. I´ve also taken two doses of lapodin today but too much lapodin seems to give me heart palpitations which I think is due to a big increase in Magnesium burn rate (I took magnoil to counter this and it seemed to work).
 

Soren

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
1,194
@Soren

This is very puzzling, I have no idea what could be causing this, but let's hope somebody has an insight.

My working theory is it is some kind of bacteria but I´m surprised the negative reaction (saliva production) is so quick though which makes me think it is not an endotoxin issue.

Perhaps it is some kind of parasite or possible H. Pylori although I don´t know much about the latter.
 

redsun

Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
1,872
Long story short whenever I eat pretty much anything my body starts to produce excess saliva often to the point where it causes me to vomit. This has developed over the past 3 months and slowly got worse but yesterday it really was the worst ever. I ate a pizza and about 40 minutes later I threw up violently. I don´t feel sick I just have just such an excess production of saliva that it causes me to gag.

I've taken a number of steps to try to mitigate this issue but they only seem to temporarily reduce it and it now seems to have come back with a vengeance. I've taken activated charcoal and that seems to have improved things somewhat but it always returns and it is not fully eradicated.

I´ve assumed that it may be some kind of bacteria or parasite that is causing this so this morning I decided to do a gelatin/sugar fast to see if I could take care of the problem. I didn't think sugar or gelatine would cause as much an issue but I was wrong, caused the exact same problem.

I just took a large dose of Methylene blue and that seems to have stopped the issue for the time being or it could just be that the gelatine and sugar is no longer in my stomach so the body has stopped producing the saliva. I've got a tablespoon of activated charcoal ready to go which I am going to take later.

The only change I made about 3-4 months ago was I started taking 1 gram of shilajit a day, 500mg of vitamin E daily. I suppose it could be one of these two supplements that is causing the problem. The vitamin E is Non-gmo sunflower based and mixed with MCT oil but I do think it may be causing me some digestive issues. I have read that in some that vitamin E can cause an auto-immune response. I suppose it could also be the shilajit but I have been unable to find any info as to how it would be doing this.

My final theory is that it is down to a probiotic I took for 2 weeks about 3 months ago. This probiotic is spore based and claimed to reduce endotoxin-bacteria and contained the strains, Bacillus clausii, Bacillus subtilis, Bacillus coagulans. I took this for a few weeks before stopping because I thought it was causing me digestive issues but now I think it might have been the vitamin E.

Anyway I am stopping all supplementation today and am going to try to eat nothing/as little as possible. Anyone have any advice or idea what might be causing this please let me know it is getting to the point now where I can't eat anything without coughing up saliva for 30 minutes afterwards which makes it very unpleasant for myself and those around me.

This is cholinergic crisis probably. Acetylcholine is way too high. Shilajit may be partly to blame:
Parasympathomimetic effect of shilajit accounts for relaxation of rat corpus cavernosum - PubMed

I would avoid choline from foods (no eggs, liver). MB can raise serotonin which helps counter acetylcholine. Anything that stimulates the sympathetic nervous system as well can help. This is why amphetamines and other stimulants cause dry mouth.

If you are taking anything else that could probably raise acetylcholine, stop immediately.
 

Soren

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
1,194
This is cholinergic crisis probably. Acetylcholine is way too high. Shilajit may be partly to blame:
Parasympathomimetic effect of shilajit accounts for relaxation of rat corpus cavernosum - PubMed

I would avoid choline from foods (no eggs, liver). MB can raise serotonin which helps counter acetylcholine. Anything that stimulates the sympathetic nervous system as well can help. This is why amphetamines and other stimulants cause dry mouth.

If you are taking anything else that could probably raise acetylcholine, stop immediately.

Thanks for the reply this makes a lot of sense. I made a previous post the other day where I mentioned that whenever I eat liver capsules I get this increase in saliva effect almost immediately after.

I had been taking liver before that for a long time without problems. The only new thing I added to my diet was Shilajit so perhaps that is the cause.

I would love to know more about the mechanisms behind this I am not particularly well versed on acetylcholine are there any other resources/examples you could point me to.

Thanks
 

redsun

Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
1,872
Thanks for the reply this makes a lot of sense. I made a previous post the other day where I mentioned that whenever I eat liver capsules I get this increase in saliva effect almost immediately after.

I had been taking liver before that for a long time without problems. The only new thing I added to my diet was Shilajit so perhaps that is the cause.

I would love to know more about the mechanisms behind this I am not particularly well versed on acetylcholine are there any other resources/examples you could point me to.

Thanks

Not much to it really. Acetylcholine by acting through muscarinic receptors triggers salivary secretion. If acetylcholine is too high it can trigger many symptoms of excess acetylcholine, one being excess salivary secretion. Liver is high in choline so its not surprising it can trigger it.

Basically over the last months as your condition is worsening your acetylcholine has been raising for whatever reason to the point where it becomes a problem and you get cholinergic crisis symptoms as soon as you eat. Certain nutrients can make this worse but really its a combination of things and I would think Shilajit is the primary factor. I would stop anything such as liver capsules which give a response and don't eat eggs or other choline foods.
 

Soren

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
1,194
Not much to it really. Acetylcholine by acting through muscarinic receptors triggers salivary secretion. If acetylcholine is too high it can trigger many symptoms of excess acetylcholine, one being excess salivary secretion. Liver is high in choline so its not surprising it can trigger it.

Basically over the last months as your condition is worsening your acetylcholine has been raising for whatever reason to the point where it becomes a problem and you get cholinergic crisis symptoms as soon as you eat. Certain nutrients can make this worse but really its a combination of things and I would think Shilajit is the primary factor. I would stop anything such as liver capsules which give a response and don't eat eggs or other choline foods.

Thanks for this I have not taken Shilajit or liver for a few days and it definitely has helped somewhat but it has not fully gone a way. Any recommendation on supplements to decrease acetylcholine levels more? I have been taking mangnesium oil, cyproheptadine and methylene blue. I have read that vitamin A can help which I am surprised by considering it is one of the main vitamins in liver.

I was also taking vitamin E and vitamin K any idea if those decrease or increase acetylcholine levels?
 

redsun

Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
1,872
Thanks for this I have not taken Shilajit or liver for a few days and it definitely has helped somewhat but it has not fully gone a way. Any recommendation on supplements to decrease acetylcholine levels more? I have been taking mangnesium oil, cyproheptadine and methylene blue. I have read that vitamin A can help which I am surprised by considering it is one of the main vitamins in liver.

I was also taking vitamin E and vitamin K any idea if those decrease or increase acetylcholine levels?
Vitamin E is able to worsen your problem and its a high dose too.

Trying to eat proteins that are low in choline but high amino acids which make up the enzyme that make acetylcholinesterase such as trytophan, histidine, serine. I would absolutely not take histidine, it may or may not worsen the problem but you can supplement serine in the diet while getting amino acids from muscle meats like chicken, beef.
 

Soren

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
1,194
Vitamin E is able to worsen your problem and its a high dose too.

Trying to eat proteins that are low in choline but high amino acids which make up the enzyme that make acetylcholinesterase such as trytophan, histidine, serine. I would absolutely not take histidine, it may or may not worsen the problem but you can supplement serine in the diet while getting amino acids from muscle meats like chicken, beef.

Thanks. Any thoughts on gelatin? Also how would vitamin E make it worse do you think, does it also raise acetylcholine levels?
 
Last edited:

Soren

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
1,194
@redsun hey do you think that excess copper or selenium could be the cause?

I have been off of Shilajit and liver for about a week and have definitely seen marked improvements. However I just took an oyster extract supplement and I've had almost the same experience I was having before with the excess saliva. This has also happened before when I've taken liver as a supplement.

I was thinking the copper could be the culprit.
 

redsun

Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
1,872
@redsun hey do you think that excess copper or selenium could be the cause?

I have been off of Shilajit and liver for about a week and have definitely seen marked improvements. However I just took an oyster extract supplement and I've had almost the same experience I was having before with the excess saliva. This has also happened before when I've taken liver as a supplement.

I was thinking the copper could be the culprit.

I would assume like oysters, oyster extract is very high in zinc. Zinc can sensitize muscarinic receptors (which trigger salivation when activated) and thus worsen your problem.

Pharmacological doses of Zn2+ induce a muscarinic cholinergic supersensitivity - PubMed
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
L Help with child's diet- unable to eat meat/dairy Diet 8
T Please help! Had sex for a while but now cant get and/or maintain an erection after using fluoride toothpaste for the first time in long time Ask For Help or Advice 28
GreekDemiGod Preventive anti-Covid measures for my mother | Help me convince her to skip the vaxx Ask For Help or Advice 79
M Silent reflux - help pls Ask For Help or Advice 6
TheBeard Help! Female friend low in Ferritin Ask For Help or Advice 5
Zsazsa Hormone drugs that reduce androgen levels may help disarm the coronavirus spike protein Scientific Studies 0
Soren Cancer Chemo internal bleeding, help Cancer 3
E Help with Devastating Iatrogenic condition - i need your knowledge Ask For Help or Advice 7
P Help with Tyromax Thyroid and Hormones 3
Cloudhands Need help interpreting blood panel Ask For Help or Advice 17
Frankdee20 HELP accidentally applied Tyromix Ask For Help or Advice 6
E Looking for help with PFS Ask For Help or Advice 71
youngsinatra Overmethylation - A Day Of Horror - Need Help! Ask For Help or Advice 12
VendettaRed911 Looking for help, lacking motivation, Carnivore Diet 13
B Borderline Hypothyroid, Histamine Intolerance? Leaky Gut? Hydrogen Sulfide SIBO?? Need Help Digestion, Gut Flora 24
S Help for my son Skin 9
Philomath Need help debunking or confirming- Study claims reduction in cognitive performance due to wearing masks, and their increase in CO2. Scientific Studies 27
B Excellent results initially but no longer! Help! Ask For Help or Advice 0
D Dilated pupils and anhedonia. Help! Mental Issues 24
P Help Eliminate Chronic Bloating Digestion 26
F Why does Sildenafil and other PDE5 inhibitors help my sleep? Male Issues 0
D German members please help with this supplement Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 8
Pina Muscle wasting, inflammation, and fibrosis. Please help Ask For Help or Advice 32
Bandooli In need of help - am I hypothyroid? Ask For Help or Advice 0
T Is tapering off 1 mg of valium per week fast if you're really unstable? Please help Ask For Help or Advice 1
J Help for painful digestion Digestion 3
M Pls help me with my diet! Ask For Help or Advice 18
G My high estrogen won't drop. Help Ask For Help or Advice 27
Mito CDC recommends double masks to help protect against COVID-19 Miscellaneous Health Discussions 29
J Need help - huge stress response, worried what to do Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 27
A Help with Weightloss Weight 32
F Help interpreting Thyroid Blood Work. Blood Work, Labs 3
S Help me understand this Ask For Help or Advice 2
M divrticulitis and intestine help Digestion 0
L I am freaking out about levothyroxine. Help Female Issues 4
M New here - Might need a little help Meet & Greet 9
F Severly compromised healt - please help Ask For Help or Advice 11
P Help me Fry my Balls (or not) Ask For Help or Advice 2
S Zinc/Copper related black spot (line) (HELP) Hair & Nails 9
bzmazu The ‘blatant arrogance’ of Zuckerberg and Dorsey: Revolution Populi aims to help a thousand social networks bloom Breaking News 0
B Help Dissolving Testosterone Base Powder Thyroid and Hormones 8
S 10+ Day Period of Poor Sleep Quality but Doing Everything by the Book.. Please Help?! Insomnia, Sleep Issues 10
ecstatichamster ELI5: Help me demolish the claim that covid vaccines are 95% effective Miscellaneous Health Discussions 29
Razvan I need help pls help me guys Ask For Help or Advice 5
Razvan Help with thyroid Thyroid and Hormones 7
A Chronic Insomnia, Diffuse Thinning. Thyroid labs. Any help appreciated! Ask For Help or Advice 3
T Need help for friend who was floxxed by cipro an antibiotic Ask For Help or Advice 9
S Libido - ED - Need some help pls [DHT / Minox? ] Male Issues 112
M Macular Degeneration in young age - pls help Ask For Help or Advice 47
D Any Such Thing As Natural Alternative To Afrin/Flonase >Stuffed Nose - Help Eyes, Ears, Nose and Headaches/Migraines 9

Similar threads

Top