The Mystery Of Spore-Forming Bacteria… (c. Diff & Others)

sm1693

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Take Away Points Summary:
Glycine and taurine cause germination of bacteria spores (if spores present). symptoms of this germination may be noticeable within 1 hour after consuming glycine or taurine. This does not necessarily mean taurine and glycine are bad. Copper can kill these bacteria in antagonistic fashion. Charcoal seems to be the most effective weapon against spore-forming bacteria in a Peat sense, and these bacteria are probably why Peat recommends taking charcoal 2-3 times a week because it appears that more normal types of bacteria are wiped out pretty efficiently by insoluble fiber.

It seems these bacteria can change back and forth from live bacteria to inert spore VERY quickly; possibly several times a day. The mystery part comes in because, in spore form, the bacteria do NOT cause symptoms and are inert. This can cause the person to incorrectly believe they are in excellent health. Then within a few minutes of contact with bile salts, the spores sense a nutrient rich environment and come to life to start causing the person near-immediate serotonin symptoms.

Below are all my notes on researching different spore-forming bacteria, with clostridium difficile being the most talked about.



Charcoal

"A greater percentage of bacillus subtilis cells sporulate in bacto-peptone broth treated with charcoal than in untreated peptone water."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 99/?page=7


Glycine

"In bile, glycine is conjugated to cholate (Fig. 1). When glycocholate passes into the lower bowel, the glycyl group is deconjugated from cholate by the normal bacterial flora (5). The products of deconjugation are cholate and glycine. When deconjugated by the normal flora, the production of both cholate and glycine from glycocholate results in two compounds that are sufficient to stimulate germination and outgrowth of C. difficile spores."

http://jb.asm.org/content/190/7/2505.full


Taurine

"To aid in digestion, the gall bladder secretes bile into the duodenum, where it helps to absorb fat and cholesterol. The primary bile produced by the liver consists mainly of cholate and chenodeoxycholate conjugated with either taurine or glycine.

We report here that C. difficile spores germinate rapidly in vitro when exposed to taurocholate but only in a rich medium that does not by itself induce efficient germination. Using a defined medium, we found that glycine and taurocholate act as cogerminants and are sufficient to induce germination of C. difficile spores. Secondary bile salts induced germination but also inhibited outgrowth of the germinated spores. These results form the basis for a new model to explain the role of the normal flora in preventing C. difficile infection."

http://jb.asm.org/content/190/7/2505.full


Histidine

"Histidine was found to be a co-germinant for Cl. difficile spores when combined with glycine and taurocholate."

http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ile_spores


Copper

"Copper metal eliminated all vegetative cells of C. difficile within 30 min, compared with stainless steel which demonstrated no antimicrobial activity (P < 0.05). Copper significantly reduced the viability of spores of C. difficile exposed to the germinant (sodium taurocholate) in aerobic conditions within 60 min (P < 0.05) while achieving a ≥2.5 log reduction (99.8% reduction) at 3 h. Organic material did not reduce the antimicrobial efficacy of the copper surface (P > 0.05)."

http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/content/62/3/522.long



Others

"Collectively, these results indicate that C. difficile spores germinate poorly with KCl or sodium phosphate at pH 6.0, and are able to germinate with sodium taurocholate and glycine."

http://mic.sgmjournals.org/content/155/4/1376.full


Anecdotal Type Info

"What you're referring to and what was explained to you by your physician is called "pulse dosing" and it's exactly what it sounds like. You take the antibiotic for a few days (or weeks depending on the severity of your infection) and then you stop for a few days (pulsing). This makes the bacteria think that the "threat" of the antibiotic is gone from your colon; once they "think" the threat is gone, they begin to transform from their survival mode or "spore" state to their normal vegetative or "active" state as living bacteria. When you restart the antibiotic again after a few days (pulsing), those bacteria that were protected as spores will then be killed by the antibiotic. Physicians use this technique for treatment when normal antibiotic therapy has failed to eradicate the entire infection and the bacterium has returned after a reoccurence."

http://www.earthclinic.com/cures/c-diff.html


"I followed the vanco with 3 weeks of tapering activated charcoal (3 times a week for 1 week, 2 times a week 2nd week, and 1 time a week third week). I hadn't tried the charcoal before and I don't know if that was what did it, but today is 70 days free of c diff.
At the end of the vanco and probiotics I started taking 260 mgs of activated charcoal that I bought over the counter at a pharmacy. They give activated charcoal to people who have been poisoned because it binds to them (along with everything else so you have to take it 2 hours before or after vitamins, meds, food, etc). I tapered and pulsed the vanco to 3 x week, then 2 x week and didn't relapse. I figured the charcoal would bind to any spores that hatched and take care of them. I don't know if it worked or if I would have not relapsed this time, but I figured it couldn't hurt. I also was on the vanco and probiotics continousouly for several months and tapered very, very slowly. Also, I think I had a mild case of c-diff this time because the vanco worked right away and I could eat anything I wanted without a problem. I hope this information helps, but a I said, I don't know if the charcoal played a part or not."

http://cdiffdiscuss.org/PHPBB3/viewtopi ... =17&t=5983



Esophagus

I worry about the esophagus since when using activated charcoal in gelatin pill form, the charcoal doesn't open up until it reaches the stomach. The esophagus isn't coated with charcoal which may be a crucial mistake, or it could be nothing at all.

I believe activated charcoal should probably be used in powder to drink form. Using the pills bypasses the esophagus and in my notes there is a study about H. pylori in the esophagus, so the esophagus does need some form of protection. There is probably a minimum effective dose of charcoal that can be used without causing execssive slowing of peristalsis. I used 1 tbsp charcoal to very good ultimate effect, but it caused slowed digestion for a day or two.


"H. pylori, which may be isolated from gastric juice in infected subjects, can be transmitted by means of GER of contaminated gastric juice to acid secreting gastric-type epithelium of esophagus. The potential analogy to duodenal ulcer of patients
with H. pylori infected Barrett's esophagus remains evocative. However, the relationship between colonization and esophagitis, ulceration or adenocarcinoma of Barrett's esophagus is inconstant. H. pylori, which is not of relevance in GER and not an acquisition of Barrett's esophagus, does not seem to contribute to the natural history of this affection. It is possible that, through migrating from the stomach to the lower third of the esophagus, H. pylori undergoes environmental alteration. Observations do not support the hypothesis that H. pylori causes inflammatory, ulcerative or precancerous lesions of Barrett's esophagus. Whether or not colonization of esophageal gastric-type epithelium is more than an overinfection of pre-existent lesions by a transient contaminant, remains to be proved."
https://www.healthonnet.org/OESO/books/ ... RT219.HTML
 

sm1693

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Amazoniac said:
Interesting. This can support the fact that some people have issues with pure gelatin and not with glycine-rich meals.

I like where your head's at. My interpretation was that gelatin would cause worse symptoms because of co-germination factors like histidine, but also that glycine alone would still cause some symptoms.
 

narouz

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Very interesting stuff, sm1693.
Food for thought...

Just a broad thought, off the top of my head:
shows how some of our Peat-inspired experimentation,
even some of what I'd usually consider pretty tame experimentation...
shows how that might have some unintended consequences.
For instance, with the c. diff actually preferring
"bacto-peptone broth treated with charcoal than in untreated peptone water."
 
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narouz said:
Very interesting stuff, sm1693.
Food for thought...

Just a broad thought, off the top of my head:
shows how some of our Peat-inspired experimentation,
even some of what I'd usually consider pretty tame experimentation...
shows how that might have some unintended consequences.
For instance, with the c. diff actually preferring
"bacto-peptone broth treated with charcoal than in untreated peptone water."

I think they mean it made more spores with charcoal.
 

narouz

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Such_Saturation said:
narouz said:
Very interesting stuff, sm1693.
Food for thought...

Just a broad thought, off the top of my head:
shows how some of our Peat-inspired experimentation,
even some of what I'd usually consider pretty tame experimentation...
shows how that might have some unintended consequences.
For instance, with the c. diff actually preferring
"bacto-peptone broth treated with charcoal than in untreated peptone water."

I think they mean it made more spores with charcoal.

Yeah, Such.
That's a bad thing, right?
For us sometimes charcoal eaters...? :)
 
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narouz said:
Such_Saturation said:
narouz said:
Very interesting stuff, sm1693.
Food for thought...

Just a broad thought, off the top of my head:
shows how some of our Peat-inspired experimentation,
even some of what I'd usually consider pretty tame experimentation...
shows how that might have some unintended consequences.
For instance, with the c. diff actually preferring
"bacto-peptone broth treated with charcoal than in untreated peptone water."

I think they mean it made more spores with charcoal.

Yeah, Such.
That's a bad thing, right?
For us sometimes charcoal eaters...? :)

It means the bacteria isn't having a good time :lol:
 

sm1693

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Such_Saturation said:
It means the bacteria isn't having a good time :lol:

Fo sho.

I really think the taurine and/or glycine can be a very useful tool to determine if you're dealing with this kind of bacteria. I bet my next paycheck that way more people are dealing with this then anyone realizes, perhaps all of us on some level.
 

Dean

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I know diatomaceous earth is not Peat-approved, but it supposedly scrapes out the biofilms and I assume it would supposedly have some impact on bacteria. I took it for a month at the beginning of this year and it seemed to be moving out some filmy stuff (and some parasites-which is what I was taking it for to begin with). It also seemed to improve my utilization of the calcium in my diet, which is another of the common claims in its favor.

I can quite agree with bacteria and parasites not liking activated charcoal. It pisses them the eff off and they made me suffer terribly for it when I experimented with it a few years ago.
 
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Does anyone know how much less "vegetable charcoal" does compared to activated charcoal?
 

narouz

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sm1693 said:
Such_Saturation said:
It means the bacteria isn't having a good time :lol:

Fo sho.

I really think the taurine and/or glycine can be a very useful tool to determine if you're dealing with this kind of bacteria. I bet my next paycheck that way more people are dealing with this then anyone realizes, perhaps all of us on some level.

Okay...so let's say you take some charcoal.
The devious bacteria react by creating more spores.
It's a survival technique, yes?
They're attempting to reproduce.
As far as I can know, successfully.
You guys are saying: "we got 'em right where we want 'em"...?
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporulation_in_Bacillus_subtilis said:
Sporulation is the last-ditch response to starvation and is suppressed until alternative responses prove inadequate.
 

narouz

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Such_Saturation said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporulation_in_Bacillus_subtilis said:
Sporulation is the last-ditch response to starvation and is suppressed until alternative responses prove inadequate.

Thanks, Such.
So pretty clear it is a death marker?
(And those spores will die also?)
 
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narouz said:
Such_Saturation said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporulation_in_Bacillus_subtilis said:
Sporulation is the last-ditch response to starvation and is suppressed until alternative responses prove inadequate.

Thanks, Such.
So pretty clear it is a death marker?
(And those spores will die also?)

No it is going to sleep. When it wakes up again we hit it again. What else can you do?
 

narouz

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Such_Saturation said:
narouz said:
Such_Saturation said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporulation_in_Bacillus_subtilis said:
Sporulation is the last-ditch response to starvation and is suppressed until alternative responses prove inadequate.

Thanks, Such.
So pretty clear it is a death marker?
(And those spores will die also?)

No it is going to sleep. When it wakes up again we hit it again. What else can you do?

When I ask you a question like that,
you're supposed to tell me something like:
"Yep. They're dead and they're never coming back."

Okay?
 
Joined
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narouz said:
Such_Saturation said:
narouz said:
Such_Saturation said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporulation_in_Bacillus_subtilis said:
Sporulation is the last-ditch response to starvation and is suppressed until alternative responses prove inadequate.

Thanks, Such.
So pretty clear it is a death marker?
(And those spores will die also?)

No it is going to sleep. When it wakes up again we hit it again. What else can you do?

When I ask you a question like that,
you're supposed to tell me something like:
"Yep. They're dead and they're never coming back."

Okay?

I think you're looking for a politician in that case.
 

tara

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C. difficile infection is very nasty, and hard to get rid of, but most people don't have it, right?
If people get stool tests for recurring digestive distress, is this one of the known pathogens that is routinely checked for (along with campylobacter, salmonella, etc, I hope)?
 

javimei

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Dean said:
post 79807 I know diatomaceous earth is not Peat-approved, but it supposedly scrapes out the biofilms and I assume it would supposedly have some impact on bacteria. I took it for a month at the beginning of this year and it seemed to be moving out some filmy stuff (and some parasites-which is what I was taking it for to begin with). It also seemed to improve my utilization of the calcium in my diet, which is another of the common claims in its favor.

I can quite agree with bacteria and parasites not liking activated charcoal. It pisses them the eff off and they made me suffer terribly for it when I experimented with it a few years ago.


Could you elaborate on why diatomaceous earth is not Peat-approved? I bougth several kilos in the past, out of a recommendation by someone who diagnosed me with parasites. I have no idea what to do with it.
 
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tara

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javimei said:
post 111269 Could you elaborate on why diatomaceous earth is not Peat-approved? I bougth several kilos in the past, out of a recommendation by someone who diagnosed me with parasites. I have no idea what to do with it.
I haven't read anything from Peat on diatomaceous earth. I think it may be quite effective against some parasites. It also may be rough on the gut lining, by the same means - scouring and dessication. Personally, I'd try other things first. But i the parasites are bad, and the GI tract is strong, it might sometimes be worth the hit.

I got some DE a while ago to see if I could kill off a wasp nest in my garden. It was in an awkward place, so I may not have succeeded in applying in optimally. I think it had some effect, but not quick, and I'm not sure that it was complete. It was in a place i didn't want to ue poison, and I'd do it again if needed. I also considered using it against cat fleas, but ended up using regular vet poison before I got around to it. May still use it for that in the future.

Peat's suggestion for parasites is flowers of sulphur.

Personally, I used humaworm a couple of times. It probably has a mix of herbs that Peat would favour and some that he may not.
 
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