What Type Of Bacteria Cause The Most Endotoxin Load?

Dr. C

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I understand that there is an issue with lipopolysaccharides (LPS) or bacterial endotoxins.

Raw carrot salat seems to help fight like like certain antibiotics do.

Most likely I guess the raw carrot let some type of bacteria thrive which then overgrow the LPS producing bacteria.

The antibiotics like Penicillin also only kill certain bacteria while others will be resistent to the antibiotic, survive the treatment and begin to dominate the gut.

It seems to me like at least the use of antibiotics to control the gut flora is a bit of gambeling.

Which bacteria do you think cause the most endotoxin load? Which type of bacteria do have no endotoxin issue?

At least E. coli seems to have a lot of LPS .

Maybe it would be wise to take some bacteriophages who fight specific strains of bacteria. At the same time some more favourable probiotic could be take to "replace" the endotoxin producing bacteria.

Since the gut is never sterile I guess it is very hard to control the total amount of bacteria with nutition or medications only. And at least by using Penicillin there is a good chance to stimulte the grow of Clostridium difficile which will never do good.

So what do you think? Which strains of bacteria are the worst and which are "harmless"?
 

Jon

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Lactic acid producers and ammonia producers are the usual culprits of negative effects, with ammonia producers being the worst of the two. Bifido bacteria is beneficial for humans and is what helps us make beneficial short chain fatty acids.

Apple cider vinegar is a good addition to anti bacterial help because of its acetic and malic acids. I've noticed after taking 2-3 tablespoons a day I get no post nasal drip after eating sugary foods, my breath stays fresh all day, and I seem to not get bloated ever from food. Coconut Oil (especially the hydrogenated kind) is anti biotic and anti viral, salt is anti biotic, copper is anti biotic, vitamin c is somewhat controversial but seems to be good for immunity.

I don't really know about taking perscription anti biotics, not my area of expertise. Anyway I prefer to go natural when ever possible, though if issues are bad enough then antibiotics are obviously necessary, but I'm not a big fan of messing around with extremely powerful substances who's effects are difficult to pin down.
 

raypeatclips

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Lactic acid producers and ammonia producers are the usual culprits of negative effects, with ammonia producers being the worst of the two. Bifido bacteria is beneficial for humans and is what helps us make beneficial short chain fatty acids.

Apple cider vinegar is a good addition to anti bacterial help because of its acetic and malic acids. I've noticed after taking 2-3 tablespoons a day I get no post nasal drip after eating sugary foods, my breath stays fresh all day, and I seem to not get bloated ever from food. Coconut Oil (especially the hydrogenated kind) is anti biotic and anti viral, salt is anti biotic, copper is anti biotic, vitamin c is somewhat controversial but seems to be good for immunity.

I don't really know about taking perscription anti biotics, not my area of expertise. Anyway I prefer to go natural when ever possible, though if issues are bad enough then antibiotics are obviously necessary, but I'm not a big fan of messing around with extremely powerful substances who's effects are difficult to pin down.

What do you actually mean when you say lactic acid producers and ammonia producers? Ammonia from excess meat?

I thought bifidobacteria was the same as lactic acid bacteria?
 

Jon

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What do you actually mean when you say lactic acid producers and ammonia producers? Ammonia from excess meat?

I thought bifidobacteria was the same as lactic acid bacteria?

Lactobacillus bacteria produce lactic acid when fed i.e. Are harmful for human metabolisms since lactic acid suppresses glucose oxidative metabolism. They also thrive in high oxygen environments which is NOT what human intestines are supposed to be. Bifidobacterium are the type that produce butyric acid and other short chain fatty acids that are anti inflammatory.

Yes, usually ammonia producers feed on amino acids in the intestine and can produce toxic amounts (the bacteria responsible for appendicitis are ammonia producers).

Lactic acid producers have been linked to health benefits IMO because they're acting as an anti biotic and neutralizing more harmful bacteria. They're still not the ideal bugs to populate our guts but better than ammonia producers.

The most harmful bugs are considered Gram-Negative Bacteria, and the less harmful are Gram-Positive.
 

raypeatclips

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Lactobacillus bacteria produce lactic acid when fed i.e. Are harmful for human metabolisms since lactic acid suppresses glucose oxidative metabolism. They also thrive in high oxygen environments which is NOT what human intestines are supposed to be. Bifidobacterium are the type that produce butyric acid and other short chain fatty acids that are anti inflammatory.

Yes, usually ammonia producers feed on amino acids in the intestine and can produce toxic amounts (the bacteria responsible for appendicitis are ammonia producers).

Lactic acid producers have been linked to health benefits IMO because they're acting as an anti biotic and neutralizing more harmful bacteria. They're still not the ideal bugs to populate our guts but better than ammonia producers.

The most harmful bugs are considered Gram-Negative Bacteria, and the less harmful are Gram-Positive.

Interesting, thanks, so how does this relate to food choices, what would you recommend?
 

Jon

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Interesting, thanks, so how does this relate to food choices, what would you recommend?

Well starches seem to be the best way to feed bifidobacteria. There's evidence that fructooligosacharides from things like onions and Jerusalem artichokes act as powerful probiotics but there's no way to know what it's feeding since most bacteria can feed off of it. Galactose from milk is also a pretty good probiotic for bifido bugs if I remember right.

A Peat inspired diet is pretty good at supplying good foods for healthy gut flora. Lower fat (like the 0.3g or below I've suggested before) is better for flora health as well. Is seems high fat diets along with high protein diets are bad for gut health and foster pathogenic bacteria. So low muscle meat, lower fat, higher starch and some fruit and leafy greens along with things like mushrooms and carrots. Vinegar, coconut oil, and possibly even horseradish (though I think vinegar has just as much if not more efficacy).
 

Jackrabbit

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Well starches seem to be the best way to feed bifidobacteria. There's evidence that fructooligosacharides from things like onions and Jerusalem artichokes act as powerful probiotics but there's no way to know what it's feeding since most bacteria can feed off of it. Galactose from milk is also a pretty good probiotic for bifido bugs if I remember right.

A Peat inspired diet is pretty good at supplying good foods for healthy gut flora. Lower fat (like the 0.3g or below I've suggested before) is better for flora health as well. Is seems high fat diets along with high protein diets are bad for gut health and foster pathogenic bacteria. So low muscle meat, lower fat, higher starch and some fruit and leafy greens along with things like mushrooms and carrots. Vinegar, coconut oil, and possibly even horseradish (though I think vinegar has just as much if not more efficacy).
Horseradish worked briefly for my sinus issues but actually started to make them worse in the long run. Antiseptic nasal spray and nightly tablespoons of honey have all but cured a once seriously painful problem. Now I only take the honey, I haven’t needed to buy another nasal spray even when I get sick.
 

Jon

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Well starches seem to be the best way to feed bifidobacteria. There's evidence that fructooligosacharides from things like onions and Jerusalem artichokes act as powerful probiotics but there's no way to know what it's feeding since most bacteria can feed off of it. Galactose from milk is also a pretty good probiotic for bifido bugs if I remember right.

A Peat inspired diet is pretty good at supplying good foods for healthy gut flora. Lower fat (like the 0.3g or below I've suggested before) is better for flora health as well. Is seems high fat diets along with high protein diets are bad for gut health and foster pathogenic bacteria. So low muscle meat, lower fat, higher starch and some fruit and leafy greens along with things like mushrooms and carrots. Vinegar, coconut oil, and possibly even horseradish (though I think vinegar has just as much if not more efficacy).
Horseradish worked briefly for my sinus issues but actually started to make them worse in the long run. Antiseptic nasal spray and nightly tablespoons of honey have all but cured a once seriously painful problem. Now I only take the honey, I haven’t needed to buy another nasal spray even when I get sick.

Atisceptic nasal spray? What's in it? Is it perscription?

Honey is pretty underrated! Interesting tid bit; I read a study on how honey is more powerful than silverdene for treating burns. One day my best friend decided to deep fry his foot by spilling a whole pan of bacon grease on his bare foot, we quickly dried off his foot with dirt (being that we were in the woods far from civilization) and I remembered the study so we drenched his foot in honey and wrapped it. Within 45 minutes he said it no longer hurt! I was actually thinking this was because he may have killed all the nerve endings in his skin BUT after a trip to the doc the next day they said he had 2nd degree burns an it should have been extremely painful! They said the honey definitely supressed his pain and kept the would clean...and just for proof of my story: this is 5mins after burning himself...look at that blister lol
IMG_3127.JPG

And this is the next day. The honey diminished the blister, it never popped!
IMG_3128.JPG

Ever since that I always put honey on my burns and it really does make them heal quickly.
 

Mito

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Endotoxin (lipopolysaccharide, LPS) is the main outer membrane component of Gram-negative bacteria.

Gram-negative Bacteria

Gram-negative bacteria
Cinnamon and Oregano Oil Kill Gram-Negative and Resistant

Gram Positive Bacterial Compounds Are Capable Of Potentiating The Effects Of LPS
 

Jackrabbit

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Atisceptic nasal spray? What's in it? Is it perscription?

Honey is pretty underrated! Interesting tid bit; I read a study on how honey is more powerful than silverdene for treating burns. One day my best friend decided to deep fry his foot by spilling a whole pan of bacon grease on his bare foot, we quickly dried off his foot with dirt (being that we were in the woods far from civilization) and I remembered the study so we drenched his foot in honey and wrapped it. Within 45 minutes he said it no longer hurt! I was actually thinking this was because he may have killed all the nerve endings in his skin BUT after a trip to the doc the next day they said he had 2nd degree burns an it should have been extremely painful! They said the honey definitely supressed his pain and kept the would clean...and just for proof of my story: this is 5mins after burning himself...look at that blister lol
View attachment 10374

And this is the next day. The honey diminished the blister, it never popped!
View attachment 10375

Ever since that I always put honey on my burns and it really does make them heal quickly.
Wow! Great to know just in case! Honey really is amazing. That burn was no joke!

Sino fresh is the name of the antiseptic nasal spray and it’s not a prescription drug but for some reason you can only get it online. Ingredients are:
Eucalyptus Globulus 20x (Antiseptic), Kalium Bichromicum 30x (Relieves Sinus Pain, Pressure and Inflammation)
Sounds hokey but the ingredients really kill whatever is in the sinuses. My opinion is that it’s a buildup of endotoxin that eventually either gets trapped in the sinus cavity or it just gets up into the passages of the face/head and causes inflammation. But I think it’s more the former because the spray seems to have permanently killed whatever the heck was hurting and it hurt so bad I would sometimes actually scream in pain. It would trigger major migraines, too. It hasn’t solved all of my endotoxin problems but considering how major that was it’s nice that it’s no longer an issue and I can focus on the systemic issues.
I have also read that tart cherry extract can help build the “good” bacteria in the microbiome, but only if you have a lot of lps. Otherwise it can actually have the opposite effect.
 

Jon

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Wow! Great to know just in case! Honey really is amazing. That burn was no joke!

Sino fresh is the name of the antiseptic nasal spray and it’s not a prescription drug but for some reason you can only get it online. Ingredients are:
Eucalyptus Globulus 20x (Antiseptic), Kalium Bichromicum 30x (Relieves Sinus Pain, Pressure and Inflammation)
Sounds hokey but the ingredients really kill whatever is in the sinuses. My opinion is that it’s a buildup of endotoxin that eventually either gets trapped in the sinus cavity or it just gets up into the passages of the face/head and causes inflammation. But I think it’s more the former because the spray seems to have permanently killed whatever the heck was hurting and it hurt so bad I would sometimes actually scream in pain. It would trigger major migraines, too. It hasn’t solved all of my endotoxin problems but considering how major that was it’s nice that it’s no longer an issue and I can focus on the systemic issues.
I have also read that tart cherry extract can help build the “good” bacteria in the microbiome, but only if you have a lot of lps. Otherwise it can actually have the opposite effect.

Yeah man lol we thought his foot was gonna be a pork rind lol

I believe you're correct:
Bacterial pathogens in the nasopharynx, nasal cavity, and osteomeatal complex during wellness and viral infection

"The nasal cavity cultures were positively statistically significant more often in ill subjects versus well subjects (39% versus 25%; p = 0.022). The overall nasopharyngeal cultures did not show a statistically significant difference (65% versus 60%; odds ratio, 1.2; p = 0.461). S. pneumoniae was positively cultured in at least one site in 15% of ill subjects and 31% of well subjects (p = 0.006). H. influenzae was positively cultured in at least one site in 45% of ill subjects and 31% of well subjects (p = 0.027). M. catarrhalis was positively cultured in at least one site in 42% of ill subjects and 27% of well subjects (p = 0.018)."

Luckily no gram negative strains but still it does show the nasal passage harbors nasty bugs. This is why I've used Apple cider vinegar in the past and let it wash over my nasopharynx.
 

tara

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Gram negative bacteria have the endotoxin in their cell wall, and release it when they die and break down in the gut.
There are more pathogenic bacteria producing exotoxins, both gram-positive and gram-negative.
 

Jon

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Gram negative bacteria have the endotoxin in their cell wall, and release it when they die and break down in the gut.
There are more pathogenic bacteria producing exotoxins, both gram-positive and gram-negative.

Thanks! Geez it just gets worse all the way around lol
 

tara

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Thanks! Geez it just gets worse all the way around lol
Maybe I have this out of perspective.
I mean what's a few days laid out with campylobacter, or salmonella, or wasting away with clostridium difficile, compared with .... with gram negatives feasting on the potatoes in my gut and dying off and leaving their endotoxin behind.
 

Jon

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Maybe I have this out of perspective.
I mean what's a few days laid out with campylobacter, or salmonella, or wasting away with clostridium difficile, compared with .... with gram negatives feasting on the potatoes in my gut and dying off and leaving their endotoxin behind.

Haha I'm not sure how your sarcasm is directed? But yeah C.diff is no bueno.

I was more making a comment about how difficult it is to avoid endotoxins as your comment highlighted the various ways to be exposed to it.
 

tara

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Haha I'm not sure how your sarcasm is directed? But yeah C.diff is no bueno.
Sorry if that came out badly, and it shouldn't have been aimed at you.
I just think occasionally there is such focus on endotoxin as a dangerous thing to be avoided, forgetting that it's one that we pretty much all live with some level of in our gut all the time, and probably have throughout mammal/primate evolution. I don't doubt that it is a burden when it gets into the system, and can be a serious problem when the levels get high or the system is otherwise compromised. I'm sure it's good to take reasonable steps to prevent that - like keeping transit timely, and choosing foods to limit if it is getting out of control, etc.
I was more making a comment about how difficult it is to avoid endotoxins as your comment highlighted the various ways to be exposed to it.
I tend to think the serious pathogens and their exotoxins are really worth avoiding. Endotoxin is more a matter of degree, not complete avoidance.
 

alywest

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Sorry if that came out badly, and it shouldn't have been aimed at you.
I just think occasionally there is such focus on endotoxin as a dangerous thing to be avoided, forgetting that it's one that we pretty much all live with some level of in our gut all the time, and probably have throughout mammal/primate evolution. I don't doubt that it is a burden when it gets into the system, and can be a serious problem when the levels get high or the system is otherwise compromised. I'm sure it's good to take reasonable steps to prevent that - like keeping transit timely, and choosing foods to limit if it is getting out of control, etc.

I tend to think the serious pathogens and their exotoxins are really worth avoiding. Endotoxin is more a matter of degree, not complete avoidance.

And definitely the mediators of stress are what contribute to the problem; ie. estrogen, serotonin, etc., right? I notice when I get a migraine, it's my gut that almost feels the worst. At least if I get the headache pain under control, that is. The severe pain is the worst for sure, but if I get a handle on that then there's still the unrelenting gut discomfort to deal with. And it usually feels like something is stuck there, and I'm guessing it's when the endotoxins build up too much due to estrogen overload and then serotonin starts to build up and then eventually reaches up the spine to the head. Dr. Peat talked about the spaces between the spine swelling from serotonin, so I'm thinking that is what causes the pain, but it starts in the gut where the endotoxin starts. I still don't totally understand the interplay between estrogen, endotoxin and serotonin, but I think that once you have an overload of serotonin then you have lower thyroid function which results in estrogen dominance and then contributes to more endotoxin which results in more serotonin...and on and on.
 
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