Estrogen, Not Androgens, May Be The Cause Of Baldness

[Estradiol]

Drugs like Letrozole and Aromasin never gave me hair loss nor regrowth. I only noticed regrowth from spironolactone/cyproterone/estradiol.

I remember sublingial Estradiol made my chest hair really thick and back hair thin. Androgens vice versa.

 

[mrchibbs]

Actually I think the idea that balding is due to chronic unhappiness, especially in childhood due to lack of closeness with mother, is exactly correct.

Deep seated trauma can probably durably suppress thyroid function, so I agree. I think baldness is undoubtedly a state of high serotonin (hence the rigidity of emotions). Some people overcompensate in this state and can seem happy, when they're not.

 

[Inaut]

Deep seated trauma can probably durably suppress thyroid function, so I agree.

I began losing hair when I was most depressed. In a dark place.... reading dark texts. Not sure if my hair will ever grow back but as I feel lighter, my hair looks better. I think the pcos thing is related to lymph and liver congestion which is also the place where emotions are stored...

I think I posted something I took from another forum regarding pcos, mpb and cellulite. Will have to dig it up again but some of it resonated with me

 

[JDreamer]

Drugs like Letrozole and Aromasin never gave me hair loss nor regrowth. I only noticed regrowth from spironolactone/cyproterone/estradiol.

I remember sublingial Estradiol made my chest hair really thick and back hair thin. Androgens vice versa.

I remember one very vocal member over on HairLossTalk who was ecstatic about his results with Estradiol. Then the sides eventually showed up (major erectile issues) and further hair loss.

 

[mrchibbs]

Drugs like Letrozole and Aromasin never gave me hair loss nor regrowth. I only noticed regrowth from spironolactone/cyproterone/estradiol.

I remember sublingial Estradiol made my chest hair really thick and back hair thin. Androgens vice versa.

My perspective is that estrogen plays a role in regrowth, but it needs to be balanced with sufficient progesterone. On its own it doesn't do anything positive long term. Short term it can be a profound stimulant.

The reason why topical estrogen causes hair to stop growing is because it restarts the hair cycle I think, but without sufficient progesterone that process doesn't go anywhere. Estrogen also triggers prolactin which probably causes abrupt hair fall (like in tellogen effluvium) to prepare for the next cycle of hair, once stress subsides and progesterone comes back up. For many people though the stress physiology never subsides.

I do want to research estrone (vs estradiol) more, because I don't know much about it.

 

[mrchibbs]

I remember one very vocal member over on HairLossTalk who was ecstatic about his results with Estradiol. Then the sides eventually showed up (major erectile issues) and further hair loss.

I've been thinking about this for a while, researching the effects of estradiol in the transgender community (because I do think there are lessons to learn from that field). It seems like they're using massive doses of estradiol (E2) to suppress androgens, and estradiol is often not capable of doing this job properly (because it's not really "the female hormone"), and regularly the response is to increase the dose of estradiol to sky high levels, which sometimes leads to horrific results. Early-on E2 seems wonderful, but it quickly becomes a nightmare.

For some reason that community (HRT) is resisting the use of progesterone (P4), but the people with the most striking transformations use a combination of E2, P4 (rectally seems to work well) and an "anti-androgen" like cyproterone acetate or spironolactone. (@Estradiol this backs up your experience of regrowth on E2/Spiro/CPA) These transformations are sometimes utterly amazing, with very youthful traits, even from guys in their 40s transitioning.

E2 alone never does this, except in very young (i.e. early 20s) guys with good health. Sometimes E2-alone even leads to guys losing their amazing hair while transitioning to a woman, contrary to what people expect. Some E2, along with very high doses of progesterone (400mg daily) and spironolactone or cyproterone acetate, seems to be able to create a very youthful and vibrant transition, by suppressing androgens, while also reigning in the deleterious effects of estrogen dominance (high prolactin, aldosterone etc.).

The most successful group (from a physiological/health perspective) though are probably young women (<25) transitioning FTM. I think this is because they're often given large doses of T and no E2, and since they're biological women, they tend to have enough endogenous P4 to prevent aromatization and thus their androgenic changes are often very successful and "natural" looking (i.e. they turn into good looking/healthy boys).

Obviously, none of this is suitable for men losing their hair, but I think it offers valuable clues to improve our understanding.

 

[golder]

I've been thinking about this for a while, researching the effects of estradiol in the transgender community (because I do think there are lessons to learn from that field). It seems like they're using massive doses of estradiol (E2) to suppress androgens, and estradiol is often not capable of doing this job properly (because it's not really "the female hormone"), and regularly the response is to increase the dose of estradiol to sky high levels, which sometimes lead to terrifying results. Early-on E2 seems wonderful, but it quickly becomes a nightmare.

For some reason that community (HRT) is resisting the use of progesterone (P4), but the people with the most striking transformations use a combination of E2, P4 (rectally seems to work well) and an "anti-androgen" like cyproterone acetate or spironolactone. These transformations are sometimes utterly amazing, with very youthful traits, even from guys in their 40s transitioning. E2 alone never does this, except in very young (i.e. early 20s) guys with good health. Sometimes E2-alone leads to guys losing their amazing hair while transitioning to a woman, contrary to what people expect. Some E2, along with very high doses of progesterone (400mg daily) and spironolactone or cyproterone acetate, seems to be able to create a very youthful and vibrant transition, by suppressing androgens, while also reigning in the deleterious effects of estrogen dominance (high prolactin, aldosterone etc.).

The most successful group (from a physiological/health perspective) though are probably young women (<25) transitioning FTM. I think this is because they're often given large doses of T and no E2, and since they're biological women, they tend to have enough endogenous P4 to make prevent aromatization and their androgenic changes are often very successful and "natural" looking (i.e. they turn into good looking/healthy boys).

Obviously, none of this is suitable for men losing their hair, but I think it offers valuable clues to improve our understanding.

Great post! I’m equally fascinated by the lessons drawn from the trans community and this gives a great insight, thank you.

 

[mrchibbs]

Great post! I’m equally fascinated by the lessons drawn from the trans community and this gives a great insight, thank you.

Thanks! It is indeed quite a captivating subject to dig into.

 

[b555]

A quick post about a study calling into question yet another dogma in medicine - i.e. that the "evil" androgens (especially DHT) are the causes of men losing their hair and getting prostate cancer. So, the "solution" modern medicine proposes is "chemical castration" with drugs like finasteride, dutasteride, flutamide, bicalutamide, etc that render men impotent, demented, and overall very far from being...men, let alone healthy ones. I have studies in the works attempting to debunk one of those myths - DHT as a cause of prostate cancer - but the study below is already pointing at another part of the myth about DHT being false. It demonstrates that estrogen, and not androgens, cause hair loss in males and administration of estrogen "receptor" antagonists restores hair back to normal levels. The estrogen receptor antagonist used in the studies below was the breast-cancer drug Fulvestrant (ICI-182780) and just twice weekly topical application was enough to restore hair growth to control levels. After 12 weeks of treatment ALL bald mice had hair-growth restored to control levels. Progesterone is the main endogenous estrogen antagonist and works similarly to Fulvestrant. Other estrogen antagonists such as (gasp!) DHT and even aromatase inhibitors such as exemestane may also work. What about the dose? Well, the study used 10 nMol Fulvestrant dissolved in 200uL of acetone, and applied that dosage topically, only twice weekly, to treat an area of 10 cm^2. Since progesterone has roughly the same affinity/antagonism for the estrogen receptor as Fulvestrant, the HED of progesterone to replicate the design of this study would be about 10mcg/kg bodyweight for every 10 cm^2 of balding area. This means a man weighing 100kg would need to apply roughly 1mg of progesterone for every 10 cm^2 of balding area. Applying even higher amount or more often, if there is no response within 3-4 weeks, should be fine as progesterone is not known to inhibit hair growth even in massive doses. As a side note, if androgenic antagonists of the estrogen receptor (e.g. DHT, Masteron, exemestane, etc) are used then just to stay on the safe side, I would not use more than 1mg for every 10 cm^2, and would stick to the twice weekly regimen.

Perhaps the most promising finding of the research is not so much about possible hair-loss treatments but the connection between estrogen and skin cancer. In fact, the lead author of the studies below stated that the same estrogen blocker used to restore growth may also be useful as skin cancer treatment/prevention. Oh well, it seems medicine is not entirely a lost cause and is slowly getting back on the right track

https://repository.lib.ncsu.edu/handle/1840.16/5314
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82416775.pdf
HAIR-RAISING TEST - ESTROGEN LINKED TO BALDNESS

"...Dr. Robert Smart and graduate assistant Hye-Sun Oh were studying the pesticide's impact when they found that the shaved skin of mice grew hair when treated with an estrogen blocker."Estrogen was playing some fundamental role in skin biology," Smart said. The discovery by the North Carolina State University researchers was published in Tuesday's edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The discovery is being tested for possible application in humans, but any commercial use could be five years away, Smart said. Smart said the studies also provided insights into skin cancer, but a scientist who wasn't involved in the research said it was too soon to suggest the data may lead to cures for either condition....Smart said the estrogen blocker acts as a switch to turn on hair growth in the lab mice. He said research to determine if the same switch exists in humans is underway at Wake Forest University's Bowman-Gray School of Medicine."

Baldness gets thin explanation Hair: Researchers agree on how hair grows but have yet to discover the definitive reason for male-patterned baldness.

"..."...The latest debate erupted last year when Dr. Robert Smart, a researcher at North Carolina State University, reported that the female hormone estrogen harmed hair follicle growth, and hence played a role in baldness. Published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Smart's research entailed clipping off the hair of three groups of mice. One group then was coated with a chemical that arrested hair growth for a prolonged period. Two control groups received chemicals that had a minimal effect. When Smart treated the denuded skin of the first group with an estrogen-blocking drug, their hair follicles responded. Within 10 weeks, the mice produced coats so thick they were indistinguishable from untreated mice. Smart says the estrogen blocker prevented normal estrogen stimulation and hair growth was the result."

DHT and E2 are locally produced and locally active in different tissues throughout the body. The serum levels of these hormones includes the amount that leaks out of these tissues. When we take medications to lower those serum concentrations an AI we may damage necessary processes in those local systems where those hormones are produced.

estradiol and DHT are autocrine paracrine hormones.

Serum levels of estradiol in men do not reflect what is happening at the tissue, So blocking aromatization to keep at at a certain number is meaningless.
Minireview: Aromatase and the Regulation of Estrogen Biosynthesis—Some New Perspectives
Extra-gonadal sites of estrogen biosynthesis and function

 

[JDreamer]

DHT and E2 are locally produced and locally active in different tissues throughout the body. The serum levels of these hormones includes the amount that leaks out of these tissues. When we take medications to lower those serum concentrations an AI we may damage necessary processes in those local systems where those hormones are produced.

estradiol and DHT are autocrine paracrine hormones.

Serum levels of estradiol in men do not reflect what is happening at the tissue, So blocking aromatization to keep at at a certain number is meaningless.
Minireview: Aromatase and the Regulation of Estrogen Biosynthesis—Some New Perspectives
Extra-gonadal sites of estrogen biosynthesis and function

But that's why Haidut (and others) have mentioned treating locally with a topical, as opposed to castration via pilling ...... well for hairloss anyways. In regards to a more systemically connected issue, the focus has been fixing the thyroid.

 

[JDreamer]

A question I have is why would we pair up the progesterone topical with DHT when hasn't it been shown that DHT already accumulates in inflamed scalps?

 

[mrchibbs]

A question I have is why would we pair up the progesterone topical with DHT when hasn't it been shown that DHT already accumulates in inflamed scalps?

I think the DHT is adaptive, not causative to the baldness. Much like DHEA is elevated during stress, as an adaptive response to the high cortisol, not as a causative agent itself.

Progesterone and DHT together would probably be profoundly therapeutic. If it is correct that a relative deficiency of progesterone is implicated in baldness, this combo could be amazingly potent.

 

[JDreamer]

I think the DHT is adaptive, not causative to the baldness. Much like DHEA is elevated during stress, as an adaptive response to the high cortisol, not as a causative agent itself.

Progesterone and DHT together would probably be profoundly therapeutic. If it is correct that a relative deficiency of progesterone is implicated in baldness, this combo could be amazingly potent.

Right, but wouldn't the uptick in localized "adaptive" DHT be enough to pair with the progesterone? Why do you think more (via topical) would be needed?

 

[mrchibbs]

Right, but wouldn't the uptick in localized "adaptive" DHT be enough to pair with the progesterone? Why do you think more (via topical) would be needed?

Because I think the evidence of hair loss means that whatever the DHT is doing, it’s not ‘enough’ to regrow hair. Progesterone and DHEA is a potent combo, and acts much differently than progesterone alone. And since DHT is anti-estrogenic, like progesterone, it would probably potentiate progesterone’s restorative effects.

 

[Murtaza]

im currently trying 10 mg progesterone with 10 mg drostanolone, none topically. i would try bio identical dht but its almost impossible to source. ill let you guys know how my experiment goes

 

[golder]

I think the DHT is adaptive, not causative to the baldness. Much like DHEA is elevated during stress, as an adaptive response to the high cortisol, not as a causative agent itself.

Progesterone and DHT together would probably be profoundly therapeutic. If it is correct that a relative deficiency of progesterone is implicated in baldness, this combo could be amazingly potent.

Out of curiosity, because I like your angles and depth of enquires my, what sort of progesterone/DHT dosage would you advocate as a good therapeutic dose for those suffering from baldness? Thank you for your expertise

 

[mrchibbs]

Out of curiosity, because I like your angles and depth of enquires my, what sort of progesterone/DHT dosage would you advocate as a good therapeutic dose for those suffering from baldness? Thank you for your expertise

Thank you for your kind words, I don’t know if we can speak of expertise, since I’m just a dude who reads and thinks far too much about this topic.

But in terms of dosage, I would prefer a high progesterone to DHT ratio, maybe like 5:1 . This isn’t really scientific but that’s what I use for my progesterone to DHEA solution, and that’s what I’d do if I had some DHT available.

 

[golder]

Thank you for your kind words, I don’t know if we can speak of expertise, since I’m just a dude who reads and thinks far too much about this topic.

But in terms of dosage, I would prefer a high progesterone to DHT ratio, maybe like 5:1 . This isn’t really scientific but that’s what I use for my progesterone to DHEA solution, and that’s what I’d do if I had some DHT available.

Sound logic. I’ll give the 5:1 ratio a try. Not fancy giving it a go with Haiduts 11ketoDHT?

 

[JDreamer]

Thank you for your kind words, I don’t know if we can speak of expertise, since I’m just a dude who reads and thinks far too much about this topic.

But in terms of dosage, I would prefer a high progesterone to DHT ratio, maybe like 5:1 . This isn’t really scientific but that’s what I use for my progesterone to DHEA solution, and that’s what I’d do if I had some DHT available.

I was gonna snatch up some progesterone cream. I can't get my hands on DHT, so in your opinion is it best to pair it with DHEA?

 

[mrchibbs]

I was gonna snatch up some progesterone cream. I can't get my hands on DHT, so in your opinion is it best to pair it with DHEA?

Yeah, I think it’s the best we can do. If someone was to apply such a solution long term, I believe it would make a significant difference. I mean testosterone was able to regrow 10% of hair on bald scalps in 1965. A progesterone to DHEA formula should only be more potent. But a higher ratio than Cortinon is perhaps advisable. 5:1 to 10:1 maybe. The only thing that I’m unsure about is that there seems to be evidence that an alcohol medium is better absorbed than an oil-based solution. No clear evidence there however.