Estrogen, Not Androgens, May Be The Cause Of Baldness

[JDreamer]

Yeah, I think it’s the best we can do. If someone was to apply such a solution long term, I believe it would make a significant difference. I mean testosterone was able to regrow 10% of hair on bald scalps in 1965. A progesterone to DHEA formula should only be more potent. But a higher ratio than Cortinon is perhaps advisable. 5:1 to 10:1 maybe. The only thing that I’m unsure about is that there seems to be evidence that an alcohol medium is better absorbed than an oil-based solution. No clear evidence there however.

I was thinking about combining it with one of the anti-fungal creams that also happen to inhibit aromatase into estrogen. Thoughts?

 

[mrchibbs]

I was thinking about combining it with one of the anti-fungal creams that also happen to inhibit aromatase into estrogen. Thoughts?

That's probably good too! The important thing is to realize that on its own that won't reverse baldness, but it could provide a significant cosmetic difference in the long run (8+months) if you stick to it, while you focus on thyroid and other issues.. So find something that is easy to do so you will stick to it.

 

[wavelength123]

I mean testosterone was able to regrow 10% of hair on bald scalps in 1965.

What’s the source on that one? That’s a lot of hair!

 

[mrchibbs]

What’s the source on that one? That’s a lot of hair!

Did I not post it several times before?

Papa CM, Kligman AM. Stimulation of Hair Growth by Topical Application of Androgens. JAMA.1965;191(7):521–525. doi:10.1001/jama.1965.03080070005001

 

[mrchibbs]

I always get a laugh at their conclusions. They're in such disbelief that testosterone could be positive for hair that they try to come up with all sort of reasons to discredit their own results lol

 

[JDreamer]

That's probably good too! The important thing is to realize that on its own that won't reverse baldness, but it could provide a significant cosmetic difference in the long run (8+months) if you stick to it, while you focus on thyroid and other issues.. So find something that is easy to do so you will stick to it.

Yup, on it.

So I switched up my diet a few weeks ago and interestingly enough the cold feet are gone. It's mostly eggs, cheese, fattier beef (only 8oz. per serving), some root veggies, and fruit (apples/grapes). Only thing I'm cheating with are a couple of 8inch tortillas with my eggs, which I dab lightly into some butter. I'll prolly add back some shrimp soon.

Even better is I'm finally getting some definition back in my abs.

 

[mrchibbs]

Yup, on it.

So I switched up my diet a few weeks ago and interestingly enough the cold feet are gone. It's mostly eggs, cheese, fattier beef (only 8oz. per serving), some root veggies, and fruit (apples/grapes). Only thing I'm cheating with are a couple of 8inch tortillas with my eggs, which I dab lightly into some butter. I'll prolly add back some shrimp soon.

Even better is I'm finally getting some definition back in my abs.

If you found tortillas made from masa harina (lime-treated corn), it wouldn't even be cheating tbh. Keep it up, you should never get cold feet. If you do, forget about regrowing hair. The topical stuff is a useful adjunct, but the metabolism is the #1 thing.

 

[wavelength123]

Eggs, full fat dairy, ripe fruit, seafood definitely among the top foods that come back in everyone’s fav list.

I guess cold feet in July really shows thyroid issues. Personally I’m super warm, but I don’t get A/C lower than 75. Liberally drinking milk in between solid meals instead of water. Idk the latter doesn’t feel satisfying and may I say, hydrating.

 

[wavelength123]

Did I not post it several times before?

Papa CM, Kligman AM. Stimulation of Hair Growth by Topical Application of Androgens. JAMA.1965;191(7):521–525. doi:10.1001/jama.1965.03080070005001

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I’m only a recent member here! Plenty to read whenever / if I have the time.

Dutasteride studies do show that scalp testosterone goes up alongside hair counts. Testosterone isn’t causing hair loss. Whether it’s the extra E2 that helps, or T blocks cortisol, or lowers adrenals, or something else is happening, idk and I don’t think we can jump to conclusions. T inhibits 11bHSD2 so there’s that too.

 

[mrchibbs]

I’m only a recent member here! Plenty to read whenever / if I have the time.

Dutasteride studies do show that scalp testosterone goes up alongside hair counts. Testosterone isn’t causing hair loss. Whether it’s the extra E2 that helps, or T blocks cortisol, or lowers adrenals, or something else is happening, idk and I don’t think we can jump to conclusions. T inhibits 11bHSD2 so there’s that too.

Yeah sorry, you're absolutely right. I just go crazy in my own head cause I feel I'm reposting the same things all the time haha

The big picture (at least the way I view it) is really the adrenals trying to cover up for the stress/hypothyroidism causing the gonadal production of the protective hormones (T, P4, etc.). The elevated adrenal DHEA, cortisol and prolactin are the key things we can say empirically are significantly elevated. Testosterone probably helps hair growth by lowering scalp cortisol levels.

And the DHEA gets converted preferentially to DHT in the skin. Obviously testosterone, DHEA, DHT are all super protective, and I think us guys that lose hair early (seems like a plurality of young men nowadays) have either inherited a bad physiological state and/or a combination of unfavourable early development or very traumatic environments which creates the acute hypothyroidism and deficiency of protective hormones from the gonads (vs. the adrenals)

I'm not against E2 helping, but it works in tandem with the other protective hormones, and typically would not stay elevated unopposed forever. I think when Papa & Kligman wrote that paper in 65 they received a lot of pressure from the establishment because those results went against the conventional theory which would dominate the next 5 decades.

Thanks for this conversation, I appreciate our discussion!

 

[JDreamer]

Eggs, full fat dairy, ripe fruit, seafood definitely among the top foods that come back in everyone’s fav list.

I guess cold feet in July really shows thyroid issues. Personally I’m super warm, but I don’t get A/C lower than 75. Liberally drinking milk in between solid meals instead of water. Idk the latter doesn’t feel satisfying and may I say, hydrating.

My feet would get frigid at times and ya, given that it still happened in warmer weather (like the summer) made it even weirder.

My toes and toenails suddenly look healthier too.

 

[Ableton]

I started applying pansterone (dhea+preg) about 3 days ago with coco oil. Also restarted tyromix and just feel great. Crazy that my eye shape already slightly changed lol, they look more androgenic. Flaccid d more prone to shrinking during workout though. whats also interesting is that I got some small pimples on my scalp, where i never had them. so there is something going on there
I would love to try dht there as well but can’t find a source

 

[Ableton]

Can someone explain to me how dhea could be helpful in the first place and why ray recommends it?
Isn’t it mostly coming from the adrenals, and adrenal androgens have been established to cause hair loss while gonadal androgens do not?
I thought dhea causes hair loss

 

[mrchibbs]

I started applying pansterone (dhea+preg) about 3 days ago with coco oil. Also restarted tyromix and just feel great. Crazy that my eye shape already slightly changed lol, they look more androgenic. Flaccid d more prone to shrinking during workout though. whats also interesting is that I got some small pimples on my scalp, where i never had them. so there is something going on there
I would love to try dht there as well but can’t find a source

I think pansterone is a fine combo. Any of the protective steroids should have a benefit on hair. There is also a study which shows coconut oil is the best for hair. And some Indian dude regrew hair all over his scalp from applying lard for like 8 months, so shaved head + coconut oil + any of progesterone, DHEA, pregnenolone, testosterone etc is probably a very positive.

I think a shrinking flaccid penis is reflective of low thyroid and gonadal androgens, since low thyroid means reduced blood flow, it gets pulled out of the genitals to pump into the muscles during exercise. Ray said that androgens increase circulation to the genitals, and thyroid drives the natural production of androgens.

 

[Ableton]

I think pansterone is a fine combo. Any of the protective steroids should have a benefit on hair. There is also a study which shows coconut oil is the best for hair. And some Indian dude regrew hair all over his scalp from applying lard for like 8 months, so shaved head + coconut oil + any of progesterone, DHEA, pregnenolone, testosterone etc is probably a very positive.

I think a shrinking flaccid penis is reflective of low thyroid and gonadal androgens, since low thyroid means reduced blood flow, it gets pulled out of the genitals to pump into the muscles during exercise. Ray said that androgens increase circulation to the genitals, and thyroid drives the natural production of androgens.

makes sense, but I just upped my temps to close to ideal again with tyromix, and did not have shrinkage in a hypo state. I think it’s probably some estrogen conversion from the pansterone, idk

 

[mrchibbs]

Can someone explain to me how dhea could be helpful in the first place and why ray recommends it?
Isn’t it mostly coming from the adrenals, and adrenal androgens have been established to cause hair loss while gonadal androgens do not?
I thought dhea causes hair loss

Adrenals don’t cause hair loss. Stressed guys have hair loss and hyperactive adrenals, but the DHEA rises to oppose the cortisol and other stress hormones. It is an adaptive, not causative agent in hair loss. Heck DHEA is probably the most potent protective steroid of youth. It probably works topically by opposing the deleterious effects of cortisol in the scalp, and restores proper mitochondrial function to the hair follicles, much like it rejuvenates aged skin.

 

[Ableton]

Another thing I think might be important is plain and simple keeping a moisturized scalp. I tormented it way too long with shampoos, dermarolling, ketaconazole etc.
Haven’t used anything but coco oil in like 2 weeks and it has never felt better. It seems more flexible and more like skin on other body parts

 

[mrchibbs]

makes sense, but I just upped my temps to close to ideal again with tyromix, and did not have shrinkage in a hypo state. I think it’s probably some estrogen conversion from the pansterone, idk

Keep in mind thyroid supplements don’t fix the underlying problem, they just are useful because thyroid hormone itself is profoundly therapeutic. But they don’t remove the hypothyroidism. When we take thyroid and raise our heart rates and temperature, it is possible that your pumping more blood into your muscles than you would be able to, and therefore circulation to the genitals is reduced.

 

[mrchibbs]

Another thing I think might be important is plain and simple keeping a moisturized scalp. I tormented it way too long with shampoos, dermarolling, ketaconazole etc.
Haven’t used anything but coco oil in like 2 weeks and it has never felt better. It seems more flexible and more like skin on other body parts

You made me laugh. Ableton and his tormented scalp.

For sure though coconut oil is the best for skin and hair. No question. And keeps people looking youthful too.

 

[Ableton]

Do you agree that acne is a sign that there is some estrogen conversion going on with the dhea in addition to androgens? I think haidut said as much (acne requires esteogen and dht)
If so, what do you recommend me to do against that?
I am already using aspirin, coffee, I lift and am low bodyfat