Copper Toxicity + Deficiency Paradox – How To Treat

Don Quixote

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Hello,

I am having problems with what seems to be copper toxicity (had emotional issues, dry pale skin, loss of some color in hair, twitches and other neurological symptoms). Copper is sky-high on my hair test. My ceruloplasmin is pretty low (14 ug/dl), and my serum copper is just on the borderline but is basically low. So essentially, it seems I am both deficient and toxic at the same time.

The hair test company suggested basically taking high amounts of zinc supplements with cofactors, but doesn't this just worsen a copper deficiency? I understand my copper levels are high in tissues, but the ceruloplasmin suggests that there is not a lot of "functional" copper present and I would not want to reduce that.

Also this is definitely making me iron deficient as well, so I am trending towards becoming anemic.

[I should note that my urine copper was low-normal, and my doctor does not believe it is Wilson's––however, an opthamologist claimed to spot Kayser rings, so I do have to get a second opinion on that, because those can be somewhat hard to discern objectively.]

Any thoughts on how to treat this paradoxical situation would be very highly appreciated!
 

redsun

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Dec 17, 2018
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Hello,

I am having problems with what seems to be copper toxicity (had emotional issues, dry pale skin, loss of some color in hair, twitches and other neurological symptoms). Copper is sky-high on my hair test. My ceruloplasmin is pretty low (14 ug/dl), and my serum copper is just on the borderline but is basically low. So essentially, it seems I am both deficient and toxic at the same time.

The hair test company suggested basically taking high amounts of zinc supplements with cofactors, but doesn't this just worsen a copper deficiency? I understand my copper levels are high in tissues, but the ceruloplasmin suggests that there is not a lot of "functional" copper present and I would not want to reduce that.

Also this is definitely making me iron deficient as well, so I am trending towards becoming anemic.

[I should note that my urine copper was low-normal, and my doctor does not believe it is Wilson's––however, an opthamologist claimed to spot Kayser rings, so I do have to get a second opinion on that, because those can be somewhat hard to discern objectively.]

Any thoughts on how to treat this paradoxical situation would be very highly appreciated!

What is your daily zinc intake from diet + supplements? Also what are the foods you are eating to get this zinc from? What is daily copper intake as well and from what foods?
 

S-VV

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Get tested for Wilsons disease before trying any copper
 

Don Quixote

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What is your daily zinc intake from diet + supplements? Also what are the foods you are eating to get this zinc from? What is daily copper intake as well and from what foods?
I pretty much eat a normal diet, when I eat beef I'd say is when I get most of the zinc from food. But I take 75mg of zinc per day. I try to keep copper low but occasionally eat almonds or chocolate or stuff like that. Also – of the 75mg zinc I'm not sure how much is actually getting absorbed.

Get tested for Wilsons disease before trying any copper

My urine copper was low, but other numbers like ceruloplasmin are out of range. One opthamologist claimed I had some Kayser rings forming but the Wilson's specialist was doubtful. He does not think I have Wilson's, but I'm currently doing more tests to find out. But to be clear I am not taking any copper! I am mostly worried about the zinc supplements I am taking.
 

Orion

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@Don Quixote I user from Grant Genereaux's forum ask me to post this for them, hopefully it may help you.

"I assume you have also symptoms of "chronic fatigue/adrenal fatigue" ? Because you need good adrenal function for ceruloplasmin synthesis in the liver.. Once your liver can't make ceruloplasmin copper will stay in the liver, because it can't float free in the blood unbound to transport protein. It would cause crazy oxidative damage.. That is the reason why you have copper deficiency symptoms. You have plenty in the liver. But without ceruloplasmin it is useless.. Now you had high copper in hair test. That is called copper dump. The body dumped copper to the blood.(usually when you push the body with exercise, sauna, desiccated adrenal supplement etc.) You did hair test after that and it showed high copper... If you did blood test during that copper dump it would show crazy high free copper, because most likely only copper increased without ceruloplasmin.. You can feel when you are experiencing copper dump(high copper in the blood) you have a lot of nervous energy, crazy racing mind, increase in blood pressure, heart rate maybe some digestive issues, more acne, redness, depression, impulsiveness, anger.. Once the copper drops you will feel exhausted more than before the dump.. You can confirm this with another blood test for serum copper.. I did blood tests many times and always it is like I just described.. With supplements like you said taking zinc, vit C, molybdenum, chromium etc.. when you have low copper in the blood and a lot of deficiency symptoms is a bad idea. You should have good amount of zinc from meat, keep copper intake lower. For sure no more than 2mg a day and when you experience dump and you will see high serum copper you can take some zinc like 30mg a day and also vit C 2-4g maybe 200mcg of molybdenum. That will lower that free damaging copper faster.. But ultimately you need to probably change your life style. Keep stress low. So your body will be able to make more ceruloplasmin and start using all that stored copper... It itakes time and change in life style. You can't fix it instantly with pills or hormones like people on this forum think.. Now I don't think that Ray Peat style is good for you. I was "Peating" and I almost died from copper and vit A toxicity.. Copper is strong neurostimulant and often it is the reason why you can't make more ceruloplasmin, because your adrenals are depleted due to chronic stimulation from this metal and if you add also sugar, cocoa, coffee even thyroid and other things. You will go down hill pretty fast like a lot of people who were on this forum and now they are gone... Btw the reason why mostly female have issues with copper metabolism, because estrogen retains copper in the body and once there is enough copper that is constantly depleting adrenals which lowers ceruloplasmin it is very hard to reverse this and also estrogen causes issues with bile flow/production and for excess copper is bile the main way out of the body... When the person doesn't understand what is going on. Most people see copper deficiency symptoms and start eating/taking even more copper. Which makes it even worse.. I can't post here, but I read this forum and I see that there is still a lot of confusion about copper metabolism.. So when I saw comments like "check if you don't have Wilson disease" etc.. I needed to react.."

Orion Log - Page 3
 
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redsun

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I pretty much eat a normal diet, when I eat beef I'd say is when I get most of the zinc from food. But I take 75mg of zinc per day. I try to keep copper low but occasionally eat almonds or chocolate or stuff like that. Also – of the 75mg zinc I'm not sure how much is actually getting absorbed.



My urine copper was low, but other numbers like ceruloplasmin are out of range. One opthamologist claimed I had some Kayser rings forming but the Wilson's specialist was doubtful. He does not think I have Wilson's, but I'm currently doing more tests to find out. But to be clear I am not taking any copper! I am mostly worried about the zinc supplements I am taking.

How long have you took zinc? And has anything improved at all. I wanted to know where your zinc and copper intake was before you started taking anything.

If ceruloplasmin is low due to copper deficiency and you are taking so much zinc or just any supplemental zinc at all you will kill yourself slowly as your bodily proteins that are dependent on copper will fall apart without it, your skin health for example is heavily dependent on it, all your joints, etc...

You are right to be worried about that zinc. For a normal individual without copper/iron/zinc imbalances that much zinc will cause problems relatively quickly by preventing copper absorption which will affect iron metabolism.

You should not take any zinc at all until you know for sure whether or not you have Wilson's disease. If you do have Wilson's, your doctors will know what steps to take. Otherwise if you don't , you likely have copper deficiency and/or are deficient in ceruloplasmin cofactors. Copper, vitamin A, B complex, should raise ceruloplasmin back up.
 

Don Quixote

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@Don Quixote I user from Grant Genereaux's forum ask me to post this for them, hopefully it may help you.

"I assume you have also symptoms of "chronic fatigue/adrenal fatigue" ? Because you need good adrenal function for ceruloplasmin synthesis in the liver.. Once your liver can't make ceruloplasmin copper will stay in the liver, because it can't float free in the blood unbound to transport protein. It would cause crazy oxidative damage.. That is the reason why you have copper deficiency symptoms. You have plenty in the liver. But without ceruloplasmin it is useless.. Now you had high copper in hair test. That is called copper dump. The body dumped copper to the blood.(usually when you push the body with exercise, sauna, desiccated adrenal supplement etc.) You did hair test after that and it showed high copper... If you did blood test during that copper dump it would show crazy high free copper, because most likely only copper increased without ceruloplasmin.. You can feel when you are experiencing copper dump(high copper in the blood) you have a lot of nervous energy, crazy racing mind, increase in blood pressure, heart rate maybe some digestive issues, more acne, redness, depression, impulsiveness, anger.. Once the copper drops you will feel exhausted more than before the dump.. You can confirm this with another blood test for serum copper.. I did blood tests many times and always it is like I just described.. With supplements like you said taking zinc, vit C, molybdenum, chromium etc.. when you have low copper in the blood and a lot of deficiency symptoms is a bad idea. You should have good amount of zinc from meat, keep copper intake lower. For sure no more than 2mg a day and when you experience dump and you will see high serum copper you can take some zinc like 30mg a day and also vit C 2-4g maybe 200mcg of molybdenum. That will lower that free damaging copper faster.. But ultimately you need to probably change your life style. Keep stress low. So your body will be able to make more ceruloplasmin and start using all that stored copper... It itakes time and change in life style. You can't fix it instantly with pills or hormones like people on this forum think.. Now I don't think that Ray Peat style is good for you. I was "Peating" and I almost died from copper and vit A toxicity.. Copper is strong neurostimulant and often it is the reason why you can't make more ceruloplasmin, because your adrenals are depleted due to chronic stimulation from this metal and if you add also sugar, cocoa, coffee even thyroid and other things. You will go down hill pretty fast like a lot of people who were on this forum and now they are gone... Btw the reason why mostly female have issues with copper metabolism, because estrogen retains copper in the body and once there is enough copper that is constantly depleting adrenals which lowers ceruloplasmin it is very hard to reverse this and also estrogen causes issues with bile flow/production and for excess copper is bile the main way out of the body... When the person doesn't understand what is going on. Most people see copper deficiency symptoms and start eating/taking even more copper. Which makes it even worse.. I can't post here, but I read this forum and I see that there is still a lot of confusion about copper metabolism.. So when I saw comments like "check if you don't have Wilson disease" etc.. I needed to react.."

Orion Log - Page 3
Thank you, this is quite helpful and makes sense. So maybe the increase in the hair copper is actually a good thing (being able to release more copper into blood)?? Could explain some of my emotional issues, perhaps the free copper released was negatively impacting adrenals. That would also explain why the ceruloplasmin is low. But why all the sudden is my body dumping so much copper from storage into the blood/hair? That's what I don't get. Is it possible that my estrogen has decreased?
 

Don Quixote

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How long have you took zinc? And has anything improved at all. I wanted to know where your zinc and copper intake was before you started taking anything.

If ceruloplasmin is low due to copper deficiency and you are taking so much zinc or just any supplemental zinc at all you will kill yourself slowly as your bodily proteins that are dependent on copper will fall apart without it, your skin health for example is heavily dependent on it, all your joints, etc...

You are right to be worried about that zinc. For a normal individual without copper/iron/zinc imbalances that much zinc will cause problems relatively quickly by preventing copper absorption which will affect iron metabolism.

You should not take any zinc at all until you know for sure whether or not you have Wilson's disease. If you do have Wilson's, your doctors will know what steps to take. Otherwise if you don't , you likely have copper deficiency and/or are deficient in ceruloplasmin cofactors. Copper, vitamin A, B complex, should raise ceruloplasmin back up.
I've been supplementing zinc for roughly two months now. I would say that there is some mild improvement, things have not gotten worse, that is for sure. In the past several months, however, ceruloplasmin has gone further down, and copper in hair has shot up even more. So when you look at the numbers it is worse, but I feel a bit better, slightly. TEI (hair analysis company) keeps pushing me to take even MORE zinc.

It is interesting what you say, because I agree, zinc will mess up copper/iron status even more. And right now I am basically iron deficient and copper deficient. It is strange that TEI is pushing so much zinc and b6. I think they are trying to lift the metabolism to support the adrenals, to therefore signal to the liver to produce more ceruloplasmin, but in the process it will certainly tank copper. Do you think there is a lower-dose of zinc I could take that would not interfere with copper absorption, or would something as low as 30mg still result in deficiency? I can only find studies where people took like over 100mg zinc for much longer than 2 months... (don't know what their prior copper status was though, ofc).

Thanks for the input.
 
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Don Quixote

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This is what they are telling me to take. Each zinc-manganese has 25mg Zinc.
 

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redsun

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I've been supplementing zinc for roughly two months now. I would say that there is some mild improvement, things have not gotten worse, that is for sure. In the past several months, however, ceruloplasmin has gone further down, and copper in hair has shot up even more. So when you look at the numbers it is worse, but I feel a bit better, slightly. TEI (hair analysis company) keeps pushing me to take even MORE zinc.

It is interesting what you say, because I agree, zinc will mess up copper/iron status even more. And right now I am basically iron deficient and copper deficient. It is strange that TEI is pushing so much zinc and b6. I think they are trying to lift the metabolism to support the adrenals, to therefore signal to the liver to produce more ceruloplasmin, but in the process it will certainly tank copper. Do you think there is a lower-dose of zinc I could take that would not interfere with copper absorption?

Thanks for the input.

If there program was correct you would be a lot better off, ceruloplasmin would have started to rise not drop even lower. Program is strange and is very counterintuitive at times and there's only so much shoving more zinc and manganese will help, in the end it will hurt you. Its possible you may have needed some of those but if your ceruloplasmin keeps dropping means you are still missing cofactors like vitamin A, Bs and copper status is worsening which is not good. Be careful.

Manganese competes with iron for absorption as well.

Yes low zinc, less than 15mg but I dont know how much of a difference it will make if you take less zinc so some copper can absorb. If you are already in a copper deficient state already, its hardly going to do much because copper in the diet is generally low for most people. This is why getting a clear answer on Wilsons would make everything more clear. Were you classified as fast or slow oxidizer?
 

Don Quixote

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If there program was correct you would be a lot better off, ceruloplasmin would have started to rise not drop even lower. Program is strange and is very counterintuitive at times and there's only so much shoving more zinc and manganese will help, in the end it will hurt you. Its possible you may have needed some of those but if your ceruloplasmin keeps dropping means you are still missing cofactors like vitamin A, Bs and copper status is worsening which is not good. Be careful.

Manganese competes with iron for absorption as well.

Yes low zinc, less than 15mg but I dont know how much of a difference it will make if you take less zinc so some copper can absorb. If you are already in a copper deficient state already, its hardly going to do much because copper in the diet is generally low for most people. This is why getting a clear answer on Wilsons would make everything more clear. Were you classified as fast or slow oxidizer?
They say I am a slow oxidizer. I definitely feel I must be dumping copper though, because of very quick-to-anger issues. I must have been full of copper like crazy for some reason, but unable to use it because of adrenal fatigue... I wonder if dropping zinc and just increasing vitamin A/B would be better.
 

Gustav3Y

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Anyone think it would be safe to sprinkle some copper sulphate in my bath?
Should be safe to spray on Plants as fungicide, 100g mixed with 10L of water, works pretty well as a preventive method against plant fungal disease, even if today hardly anyone uses it due to so many lab made powerful fungicides.

For Humans as far as I know it is Toxic.
 

James b

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Should be safe to spray on Plants as fungicide, 100g mixed with 10L of water, works pretty well as a preventive method against plant fungal disease, even if today hardly anyone uses it due to so many lab made powerful fungicides.

For Humans as far as I know it is Toxic.
Thanks, so a pinch in a large bathtub you think would still be dangerous?
 

Gustav3Y

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I would not use even a pinch of copper sulfate.
If you want to use some sulfates in the bath you could try magnesium sulfate aka Epsom salt.
 

Daniil

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Sorry for being so late, I'm only recently on the forum. But maybe my information will be useful to someone. There is no relationship between Wilson's syndrome and copper levels in the hair.


Low cerruloplasmin may indeed indicate Wilson's syndrome, but the main criteria are free copper and copper excreted in the urine(both high in Wilson's syndrome). I would not attach much importance to the analysis of hair for minerals. I read somewhere that one person sent their hair to different labs and got different results. I think you may just have a copper deficiency due to zinc supplements.
 

Daniil

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