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Help. I Am Taking Copper And Still Have Deficiency!

Discussion in 'Blood Work, Labs' started by Lucas, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. Lucas

    Lucas Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
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    Hello. I did a blood test for copper and my results was:

    72,7 mcg/dl Ref: 70 – 140

    This blood test was on February of this year.

    So, since the results was low, I became to supplement copper chelate, 2 mg, from Swanson.

    I take it whit a glass of Milk together whit desiccated liver capsules and a low release potassium supplement.

    My last test done on 18 April showed 68,4 mcg/dl Ref: 70 – 140.

    So now I have a deficiency.

    I have fatigue, pale skin, sag skin (very deep nasolabial folds), gray beard, low body temperature, hypothyroidism, high ferritin, joint pain.

    I don’t supplement zinc, and my ceruloplasmin is below the reference range.

    Is milk an antagonist of copper absorption??
     
  2. ddjd

    ddjd Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
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    2,775
    You've been taking the wrong type of copper. Search mitosynergy copper
     
  3. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
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    Supplementing copper will not do anything until you resolve your ceruoloplasmin issues (it’ll probably make you worse as you’ll use up vitamin C (I believe, though perhaps there are other mechanisms and I could be wrong) to deal with the unbound copper.

    It’s clear your deficiency stems from more than just inadequate copper intake as you should at least have seen a small improvement from supplementing copper.

    You’ll need to look at your diet and understand what’s missing as a ceruloplasmin cofactor - you need copper, vitamin a, iron, vitamin c. That’s off the top of my head, please research it! Often it can actually be zinc that’s low - you need adequate zinc to sufficiently transport vitamin A in the body. I believe magnesium is also involved.

    This axis is such a balance, I genuinely would try without supplements for a bit. Get sources of all the above in your diet and see what you end up craving maybe. Lamb liver is a great option as it has a better zinc to copper ratio and can be less unbalancing than calves liver, plus lots of vitamin A (again, eat to craving and don’t overcook or it’ll taste horrible!)
     
  4. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

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    Also, if your copper chelate is copper glyicnate I have definitely seen people get results from it (when copper intake is their only issue), so I don’t think it’s a bad type
     
  5. Mito

    Mito Member

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    Low serum copper and low ceruloplasmin can paradoxically indicate copper toxicity. Wilson’s disease (copper toxicity disease) is very rare but serum copper and ceruloplasmin are usually both low.
     
  6. skominac

    skominac Member

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    Jul 25, 2013
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    yeah, you may or may not be deficient in the mineral. For example, your liver may be full of it, but proteins built around Cu are low. Copper is almost entirely used only as part of a complex protein (enzyme) and as ionic mineral is it just a free radical. Liver can release some free Cu during infections in order to destroy pathogens with Cu. Other than that, it is part of proteins. Carnosine (Alanine-Histidine) can help in protein deficiency case. Few other cofactors, too (vitamin E for example).
     
  7. Ella

    Ella Member

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    Excellent advice @Mito. Yes, Wilson's disease should be ruled out as giving more copper can be deadly. Perhaps a eye examination may provide a non-invasive means on whether we are managing copper properly. A healthy liver is mandatory for the proper management of copper. The following paper presents cases other than Wilson's Disease where copper management is deranged. Wilson's is rare however, obesity, T2D and fatty liver are rampant today, in comparison to cases in the 1970s when the following paper was published.

    https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(77)80038-3/abstract?code=ygast-site
     
  8. Frankdee20

    Frankdee20 Member

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    Just eat chocolate and liver
     
  9. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

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    With ceruloplasmin that low then any copper ingested would be unbound aka toxic. Vitamin C, citric acid, and I’m sure lots of other unknown ways can be used to deal with this in the body.

    I don’t believe low ceruloplasmin would be a compensatory measure when actual bound copper is replete because it wouldn’t aid the body at all. Though perhaps it could?

    You can be copper toxic and copper deficient at the same time. I believe Wilson’s disease is this state. Regardless, working on the cofactors through food is a good place to start. Please don’t worry about copper toxicity, your body will naturally deal with it with a robust diet once your ceruloplasmin starts to rise. Eat the foods, see what seems appealing or what you crave each day. That’s where I’d start.

    See what feels right to you!
     
  10. OP
    Lucas

    Lucas Member

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    Thanks’ for the answers!

    I think I don’t have the Wilson disease; I don’t have the eye symptom prevalent on that disease.

    My zinc improved from 85 mcg/dl to 104 mcg/dl (ref: 70 – 120 ) just by eating red meat.

    From copper, maybe adding tablespoons of cocoa powder to my diet will improve it?

    I will try copper glycinate and copper sebacate to see how I fell.
     
  11. cinderella

    cinderella Member

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    I sprinkle organic cacao powder on my vanilla ice cream or make hot chocolate with it..
    According to my hair mineral analysis, I have copper toxicity, yet my hair colour substantially faded. Ray Peat recommended me some sea food like shrimps etc. as a source of copper. His email to me:

    "Copper is the catalyst that forms
    the
    > melanin. Shell fish such as
    shrimp, crab, mussels, scallops,
    > squid, etc., are good sources of
    copper. Cooked mushrooms
    > are another source. Too much iron
    in the diet (also too much
    > molybdenum or sulfur) has a
    competitive effect that can
    > interfere with copper’s
    effects."
     
  12. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

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    By all means see how you get on with another copper source but it’s important you understand ceruloplasmin in order to improve copper levels, both of you.

    “Copper toxic” is a scare mongering term used by alt health practitioners to drum up business. Anyone with low ceruloplasmin will have unbound copper... the body will expel it naturally as health improves and ceruloplasmin is restored.

    Just eating more copper sometimes helps, but it won’t do anything without iron, vitamin c, a healthier liver, vitamin A. Everything is interconnected. Eat as varied a diet as possible and see if you’re missing anything big via chronometer. If you try a good source of the missing nutrient and it tastes good, include it.
     
  13. cinderella

    cinderella Member

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    Wow @sunraiser !!
    I guess a nutrient dense diet helps to meet those vitamins. I think my liver health is very poor, even though I try to improve it. It's because I still have yellowish skin on my face and hands. I do agree with you re those alternative health practitioners. I do take zinc 50mg atm though which is a very high dose.
     
  14. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

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    You’ll have to use your own judgement but I do not believe taking zinc is a good idea right now. Fading or greying hair colour can indicate copper deficiency, and unless you were pounding down liver or crab/squid it doesn’t seem likely that you’ve simply been eating too much copper. The hair mineral test may just show you’re expelling the copper you’re eating because it’s not being bound by ceruloplasmin in your body and therefore can’t be used.

    Beef mince is quite a cheap zinc source, maybe eat that or steak when you crave them. If the zinc truly makes you feel better then keep monitoring it, but it’s quite risky to take high dose zinc.

    With regard to liver health, eating proteins early in the day and most calories early can be a big help. Our livers cleanse when we sleep and seem to be based on circadian rhythm (in my experience, not necessarily a fact). Just light carbs and fats at dinner. Don’t starve yourself obviously.

    Exercise is the next thing as long as you have energy. Multi muscle group exercises like goblet squats, press ups, pull ups and dips can be done at home. Also anything that involves bouncing or jumping ((even running on the spot or jumping) can further support your lymph system. If your lymph system is working well your liver won’t have to take the slack.
     
  15. Ella

    Ella Member

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    Problem solved. Stop taking the zinc and eat more shellfish and a little liver and your copper will come up. Dr Peat is spot on.

    :thumbupSpot on.
     
  16. OP
    Lucas

    Lucas Member

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    Apr 8, 2015
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    I eat 5 eggs yolk a day. Is this enough for vitamin A?

    I have high ferritin (303) but my serum iron is not high and my saturation is normal, at 33%.
     
  17. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

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    5 egg yolks is probably fine as far as vit A goes, unless you’re heavily supplementing vitamin D. Do you eat greens or have a significant source of vitamin K1 or k2? You need that for vitamin A to be used.

    Your ferritin will be high until you resolve your ceruloplasmin as it’s also important in iron metabolism - the body balances iron and copper.

    What vitamin C foods do you eat?
     
  18. cinderella

    cinderella Member

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    Thank you so much for your help @sunraiser
    I don't know in theory why I could be copper deficient. I follow a Ray Peat inspired diet since 2014. I make sure to eat liver once per week and do eat shrimp, seafood and oysters regularly since. I used to be a vegetarian for over 20 years prior to starting to follow Ray Peat, with no issues of hair colour fading and eyebrow/hair thinning.
     
  19. cinderella

    cinderella Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2016
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    M
    My ferritin was always lower than normal. I was diagnosed with alopecia secondary to iron deficiency. But ferrous sulphate never helped. I don't believe in that theory, anyway.
     
  20. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

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    Feb 21, 2017
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    Then it sounds like iron metabolism might be the limiting factor in ceruloplasmin production for you. Or it might not, if the zinc was genuinely making you feel good.

    I don’t know too much about improving iron metabolism, I know folate is involved though and that’s notoriously low on a ray peat type diet. Iron is demonised but it’s also necessary.
     
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