Help. I Am Taking Copper And Still Have Deficiency!

[Lucas]

@Lucas Update ?

The more copper suplement i take the more serum copper and ceruloplasmin deficient i get

 

[bond]

How did this continue?

It basically continued for 2-3 weeks total, after that I'm back to basics.
I either depleted the copper(I had eaten about 150g of beef liver before my temporary success) or some other nutrient - currently still investigating my logs to see which one was it - going to try some niacin as I had this at 50mg for about a month before the good 2 weeks. I'm homo on both popular COMT SNPs(i.e. slow COMT) and niacin is believed to help clear SAH which blocks COMT.
I'm mad at myself for not taking a blood test at that time to see how it would relate to the improvement of well being.
Recent test I took in December didn't show anything interesting - both Cu and Zn were mid range, Cp was at 24 yielding unbound Cu at about 40%.
Neutrophils were highest I ever measured in my life which was a bit motivating but I also trialed a month of advanced TRS before that which may have skewed results a bit.

Still continuing with experiments and will post whenever I have some progress or failure.

 

[robertf]

Get thee a hair mineral test. Blood tests are meh.

 

[sunraiser]

The more copper suplement i take the more serum copper and ceruloplasmin deficient i get

Then your body is keeping ceruloplasmin low for a reason.

Is it possible you have calcium/magnesium metabolism issues? Definitely lay off the copper for now!

 

[Kyle Bigman]

@Lucas did you ever figure out the issue? To me it sounds possible that you have Wilson's disease, but you should get a 24 hour urine test and check for Kayser Fleischer rings in your eyes. I am experiencing similar issues. My Ceruloplasmin level is 0.19 g/L, my total copper was in the low-normal reference range. My symptoms are similar to what you guys experience –– intermittent right upper quadrant pain (so I thought was liver), depression, dry/yellowish skin, some abdominal bloating, etc. So it sounds to me like Wilson's.

Copper toxicity/deficiency seems very difficult to assess.

I am trying to see an eye doctor and am trying to get tested for 24 hour urine/serum copper. But it is a struggle since I am in a third world remote country at the moment. Horrible timing. I will keep posting.

 

[Frankdee20]

eAT lIVER, MAYBE FOOD SOURCED COPPER IS BETTER ABSORBED

 

[Kyle Bigman]

I have tried liver, shellfish, chocolate, mushrooms, etc. I don't want to risk consuming lots of liver if the issue is really toxicity.

 

[Dave Clark]

I have tried liver, shellfish, chocolate, mushrooms, etc. I don't want to risk consuming lots of liver if the issue is really toxicity.

You xould always give MitoSynergy a try: https://www.mitosynergy.com/

 

[Kyle Bigman]

Ur very likely to be a Wilson's disease carrier. Carriers often have partial dysfunction in that there ceruloplasmin levels are low. It's because the function to bind copper to ceruoplasmin is missing. And the test u did includes copper and the copper bound to ceruloplasmin.

Now since like 60 to 90 percent of copper in body is usually in form Of Ceruoplasmin, ur copper also shows up low. When in actuality its fine. I. Know coz I got same blood work and did all the research plus seeing specialists. What makes u have full Wilson's disease is when u cant get rid of excess copper....

Which hopefully ur body is doin. The eye test is not sufficient for some ppl don't accumulate it in eyes. Best way is to get 24 hour urine test done for.Copper and it is almost always high for anyone with actual Wilson's disease. Luckily mine wasn't. Hopefully and likely urswont be either But good to. Make. Sure

Remember whike it's rare to have Wilson's disease it's actually rare to be a Carrier.

And yes if u did have it Blood copper shows up as low coz its. Accumulating in tissues. But again..
Ur probably a carrier. I spent months researching and losing sleep over this

so if youre a carrier its impossible to raise up ceruloplasmin?

 

[bond]

A quick update, I had another 2 good weeks when I felt 'normal' - motivation, energy, both mental, physical and exploratory, improved sleep.
Prior to that I was on a slightly modified copper detox regimen - taking 25-30mg zinc before bed 5/7 days a week, MSM(1g), B6(50mg), TMG(500mg), dandelion tincture, lithium orotate, DIM, pregnenolone(20mg), niacin(100mg) 3 days per week.
Stopped all supplements for a month and ate 100g beef liver(which made me quite stressed) and got sick(flu-like) the next day. Was sick for about 10 days, after that I got my good 2 weeks.
Before my previous good weeks I also got sick, so I wonder if it has something to do with that and the immune system, but definetely copper is related too.
This time however I got blood tests and my Cp was 34 for the first time since I've been measuring it(22-24 before) ! Neutrophils were also at an all-time high. Serum Zn and Cu were about 20 umol/l which is near the top of the range. Fibrinogen, hsCRP and ferritin were also a bit high, but serum Fe was lowish, so I'm wondering if the high Cp was an imflammatory response rather than my liver working properly... or both.
My current diet is pretty high carb, coconut water(500ml) a day and some chocolate and fruit.
Hope that helps someone.

 

[dreamcatcher]

Supplementing copper will not do anything until you resolve your ceruoloplasmin issues (it’ll probably make you worse as you’ll use up vitamin C (I believe, though perhaps there are other mechanisms and I could be wrong) to deal with the unbound copper.

It’s clear your deficiency stems from more than just inadequate copper intake as you should at least have seen a small improvement from supplementing copper.

You’ll need to look at your diet and understand what’s missing as a ceruloplasmin cofactor - you need copper, vitamin a, iron, vitamin c. That’s off the top of my head, please research it! Often it can actually be zinc that’s low - you need adequate zinc to sufficiently transport vitamin A in the body. I believe magnesium is also involved.

This axis is such a balance, I genuinely would try without supplements for a bit. Get sources of all the above in your diet and see what you end up craving maybe. Lamb liver is a great option as it has a better zinc to copper ratio and can be less unbalancing than calves liver, plus lots of vitamin A (again, eat to craving and don’t overcook or it’ll taste horrible!)

I've recently asked Ray Peat whether a copper rich diet is sufficient to correct copper deficiency or would he recommend temporary copper supplementation as well.
His reply:
"Having shrimp, oysters, or other shellfish once or twice a week will correct a deficiency."

 

[dreamcatcher]

Then your body is keeping ceruloplasmin low for a reason.

Is it possible you have calcium/magnesium metabolism issues? Definitely lay off the copper for now!

In case of impaired calcium metabolism, what would you recommend? More calcium perhaps?

 

[sunraiser]

In case of impaired calcium metabolism, what would you recommend? More calcium perhaps?

This is a really hard question to answer in specific terms, sorry. I wouldn't recommend more calcium, though. Calcium (and mineral metabolism issues in general) issues tend to come from liver issues and issues processing/storing a balance of fat solubles (and the resultant inflammatory issues) in my experience but it's really hard to find a balance.

If you're going to try fat soluble vitamins I think it's better to start extremely low and just eat foods you enjoy, though not large amounts of sugar. By low I mean 100-400iu vitamin D and then some greens or sweet potatoes whenever you crave them for vitamin A.

I do not know why but liver does not work as a vitamin A source for me, despite being high in retinol 'on paper'. I think the amounts of copper and B12 in liver and oysters is too high for a person with a weakened metabolism (and therefore weakened adrenals for mineral balance) to eat in large quantities, but maybe 20g or so a week is fine unless you really really crave it.

If you're able to get sunshine on your torso (front and back) I'd recommend that too. It's not a popular view on this forum but I think large doses of fat soluble vitamins are more likely to cause acute health problems than to solve them.

And to be clear; I'm not an expert and all my conclusions come from my own personal situation as a male. I'm reluctant to give too much direct advice because I've had many occasions in the past where I've felt confident only to reevaluate what I thought I knew at a later date!

 

[Motif]

The more copper suplement i take the more serum copper and ceruloplasmin deficient i get

fixed meanwhile?

i can’t get my copper and ceruloplasmin up neither

 

[Motif]

You've been taking the wrong type of copper. Search mitosynergy copper

The mitosynergy people seem fishy to me.

They say mitosynergy won’t bring blood copper levels up, cause „good“ copper does not build up and is out of the body after hours.

Does absolutely make no sense! This would mean first time taking it and every low copper symptom would be gone. What kind of bs is this?

 

[Motif]

@Lucas Update ? I try to get my levels up again right now and this time my symptoms are better than in years.
Let’s see how it continues

 

[Blue Water]

My Ceruloplasmin has always been low 14-17, serum copper went lower over the years to now being barely in range (70ug/dl, bottom of range is 70). Plasma copper is 0.62ug/ml, which is low too (bottom of range is 0.80), but RBC copper was normal 0.66 (0.55-1.00 ug/ml). Urine copper is usually very low, I've tested a few times for Wilson's and it has come back as 0 at times.

However, I think to properly investigate this copper issue iron has to be investigated too. I have the H63D gene for hemochromatosis and while ferritin is low (34), my transferrin saturation and serum iron is typically high (sometimes as high as 72%).

Low Ceruloplasmin can cause high ferritin and iron overload but obviously in my case that is not the issue. The issue is actually high transferrin saturation. So Ceruloplasmin must be working, but instead of giving iron to ferritin, Hepcidin tells the body to keep pushing iron into the blood, thus transferrin is the only thing preventing iron from causing bad damage. Ceruloplasmin also mitigates iron toxicity, I believe. So having low Ceruloplasmin is weird. I wonder if it's the bodies way of trying to stop iron from overflowing in the blood? (no Ceruloplasmin in the cell to courier the iron out into the blood?)

Also, I am now taking IP6 to chelate iron from the blood, but as I am worried about copper deficiency, does anyone know if IP6 will also chelate copper? Going to re-test all the values soon so I want to get an accurate reading.

 

[Motif]

My Ceruloplasmin has always been low 14-17, serum copper went lower over the years to now being barely in range (70ug/dl, bottom of range is 70). Plasma copper is 0.62ug/ml, which is low too (bottom of range is 0.80), but RBC copper was normal 0.66 (0.55-1.00 ug/ml). Urine copper is usually very low, I've tested a few times for Wilson's and it has come back as 0 at times.

However, I think to properly investigate this copper issue iron has to be investigated too. I have the H63D gene for hemochromatosis and while ferritin is low (34), my transferrin saturation and serum iron is typically high (sometimes as high as 72%).

Low Ceruloplasmin can cause high ferritin and iron overload but obviously in my case that is not the issue. The issue is actually high transferrin saturation. So Ceruloplasmin must be working, but instead of giving iron to ferritin, Hepcidin tells the body to keep pushing iron into the blood, thus transferrin is the only thing preventing iron from causing bad damage. Ceruloplasmin also mitigates iron toxicity, I believe. So having low Ceruloplasmin is weird. I wonder if it's the bodies way of trying to stop iron from overflowing in the blood? (no Ceruloplasmin in the cell to courier the iron out into the blood?)

Also, I am now taking IP6 to chelate iron from the blood, but as I am worried about copper deficiency, does anyone know if IP6 will also chelate copper? Going to re-test all the values soon so I want to get an accurate reading.

Ever tried high copper intake over weeks , months?
Levels did not go up?


I try to get them up for months. They just don’t.

 

[Blue Water]

Ever tried high copper intake over weeks , months?
Levels did not go up?


I try to get them up for months. They just don’t.

No I am very hesitant about supplementing copper directly. I think the issue is metabolic so I don't think it's merely a deficiency problem. Trying to figure out where the problem lies. Is it excess iron somehow causing down regulation of Ceruloplasmin (i.e. hemochromatosis)?

I should note that my issues actually started in mid twenties when I started fin coincidentally around the same time. I can't say one caused the other because this is also a time frame where a lot of genetic issues pop up but who knows. Another theory of mine is that fin (which acts like progesterone) raises serum zinc, which potentially blocked copper absorption. So it's like finasteride induced copper deficiency. However, the likelihood of that problem remaining after quitting fin is very low.

But basically copper metabolism depends on iron and zinc and magnesium metabolism as well, so addressing copper in a vacuum is not likely to work.

 

[Motif]

No I am very hesitant about supplementing copper directly. I think the issue is metabolic so I don't think it's merely a deficiency problem. Trying to figure out where the problem lies. Is it excess iron somehow causing down regulation of Ceruloplasmin (i.e. hemochromatosis)?

I should note that my issues actually started in mid twenties when I started fin coincidentally around the same time. I can't say one caused the other because this is also a time frame where a lot of genetic issues pop up but who knows. Another theory of mine is that fin (which acts like progesterone) raises serum zinc, which potentially blocked copper absorption. So it's like finasteride induced copper deficiency. However, the likelihood of that problem remaining after quitting fin is very low.

But basically copper metabolism depends on iron and zinc and magnesium metabolism as well, so addressing copper in a vacuum is not likely to work.

Ok. You think donating blood might help? A lot of people claim this.