Cloudy Urine

Discussion in 'Ask For Help or Advice' started by radix, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. radix

    radix Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Hi all,

    First post here.
    I've been Peating for about 6 months. I had been Peating 3 months in early 2012, but got distracted by Matt Stone over winter and gorged on everything - PUFAs, starch, whatever.

    I've had problems with sleep for about 20 years (I'm 34) - mainly getting to sleep, although lately (last 2 years), I've been waking in the middle of the night, with raging adrenals. Very rarely get to sleep once this has happened, even if I drink some salty orange juice/coconunt oil, milk, sugar etc. I always have some vit e, aspirin, k2/d2, niacinamide, milk, sugar, gelatin before bed, but it doesn't help.

    Generally I eat a Droddy style Peat. Don't really care about food, so I'm pretty happy with OJ (1.5 litres), milk (2 litres) (no fat goat milk), cocounut oil, coffee, gelatin, eggs, liver, steak, scallops etc.

    I have very cloudy urine. Any ideas if this suggests anything?
    Is it related to stress hormones in any way?
     
  2. Shrimp

    Shrimp Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2012
    Messages:
    223
    Gender:
    Female
    The cloudy urine can be related to milk consumption. http://urology.stanford.edu/about/artic ... urine.html

    "White or cloudy urine is most commonly a result of phosphaturia (2,3). This is a benign condition in which excess amorphous phosphate crystals form in urine. Adding a drop of acetic acid to the urine sample will result in immediate clearing of the urine. Phosphaturia is usually intermittent, occurring following a meal or after ingesting a large quantity of milk."
     
  3. Mittir

    Mittir Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,034
    Ray Peat talked about foamy urine in the morning. This is a result of stress where free fatty acids
    and other stress hormones are processed in the liver and excreted through urine.
    It is in KMUD weight loss interview. He also discussed how low thyroid person
    has low perspiration and way to measure metabolism by calculating fluid intake and
    excretion. RP in other interview mentioned that adding 2-3 tbs of sugar to
    a cup of milk works great as sleeping aid.
     
  4. OP
    radix

    radix Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Thanks for the responses.
    I went to try out the vinegar test and for (what I thought was) the first time in weeks - totally clear urine! Typical luck, I thought.

    Then, I realised that it was probably mainly at the beginning part of the day - up to late morning that I was noticing the cloudiness. I also wake up with blood shot eyes and low temperature - 35.8 - 36 C (96.4 - 96.8F). My temperature during the day, whilst eating regularly, peat-style, is 36.9-37.2 (98.4-99F), often 37.5-37.8 (99.5-100F)after eating.

    I very rarely sleep more than 6 hours in total, normally in 2 or 3 bouts, and the cycle of low temps and general stress symptoms begins again. I will pay greater attention to exactly when I notice the cloudiness.

    Mittir, I've tried the sugar, in varying amounts - 2-3 tbs included, but in larger and smaller amounts too, and nothing seems to stave off the sleep issues.

    One thing that I thought may be an issue, is that as my thyroid function comes back up - it has a lot over the last few months, perhaps I'm metabolising more fats now and my PUFA loaded tissues (yes, I used to think they were healthy :roll: ) are discharging at night? Niacinamide, vit e, aspirin, sugar, gelatin, potato juice soup are not helping though. I've tried B6 too, but that sends me into a night time world of craziness. Cronometer says my only deficiency is manganese.


    Thanks
     
  5. HDD

    HDD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,021
    I, too, have had sleep issues for years. Have you tried Epsom salts bath? This is very relaxing, you need to go to bed right after (one of my problems is I hate to go to bed). A simple light set up over your bed is also good. I have a 250 watt heat lamp hanging from a pole lamp that I use nightly until I get too warm.

    I was waking in middle of night sweating. Not menopausal, so I believe it is attributed to cortisol. Morning temps used to drop after breakfast. I started taking pregnenolone in the evening for the cortisol.

    "The excess cortisol of depression, old age, and hyperestrogenism often comes down with use of a thyroid supplement, but pregnenolone has a very direct action (in opposition to serotonin) that can quiet the pituitary, reducing ACTH and cortisol"
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ms.shtml

    In addition to light, milk, sugar, salt, pregnenolone, progesterone and an aspirin, I take a 25 mg benadryl. I never would use such a thing in the past, but since Ray Peat mentioned it's use in some articles, I decided to try it. I have had the best sleep since I started using it.
     
  6. OP
    radix

    radix Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Haagendazendiane,

    I forgot to mention that I also use red light. I was using a heat lamp - the one Ray recommended, but it is far too hot - we've actually got a summer here in the UK this year. I am generally a very hot person - I have to have quite a cold environment in order to sleep and only ever use a bed sheet as a cover, never a duvet/quilt, even in the winter.
    For this reason, I can't take baths either - they just make me sweat and feel very uncomfortable.
    I have tried epsom salt baths, but they leave me light headed and feeling awful.
    I am only cold in the morning - well, my temps are low, but I feel hot - as I do when I wake up at night, still with low temps.

    I am using a red LED array for light at the moment, because of the heat.



    I don't have access to cheap blood test so I won't be tinkering with taking hormones, I just think it's too risky.

    I looked at Benadryl, but the titanium diwhatsiname and all the huge list of other nasties in it don't enthuse me to take it. Perhaps I might try it once or twice and if it works then that might give me an idea of what is causing the problem, because at the moment I'm stumped.

    If it is related to morning cloudy urine, then I hoped that this might give a clue.
     
  7. Mittir

    Mittir Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,034
    For me 2 tbs honey/sugar in milk always worked in past. Recently i had a this sleep problem phase where
    i had to do lots of things and finally adding Vitamin D fixed the problem. RP thinks endotoxin is one the main
    reason for sleep disturbance.Daily raw carrot salad with coconut oil or cooked bamboo shoot is a must
    for lowering endotoxin. I thoroughly strain OJ using cotton T shirt. Regular OJ is too high in pectin.
    I also avoid high protein food after sunset, only a glass of milk, Ice cream, juice etc.
    It is possible you are eating more liquid than you can handle. You can try a a version of diet
    with lot less liquid. You can try substituting OJ with other juice for few days.
    Supplements are always a major source of irritant. You can try going supplement free for few days.
    RP suggest using vitamin D3 on skin. There is no alternative to self experimentation.
    I have also noticed i can only tolerate gelatin in gummy bear form.
    Increasing coffee consumption also helped me with liver's ability to store glycogen.
    I add about 1 oz of instant coffee in milk.
    Extra salt is needed to balance large fluid intake.
     
  8. OP
    radix

    radix Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Mittir,

    I do the vitamin d as well as the carrot/coconut oil/vinegar/salt salad. I would find it hard to cut down on the liquid, whilst maintaining the required calcium, protein and sugar ratios whilst not increasing starch. I know that endotoxin is a big issue for me - I had terrible gut issues (serious pains, infections and inflammation/bloating) before moving to diet based on OJ and milk, which have now thankfully disappeared. I've tried adding back in some potato on occasions but gut responds badly.

    I take quite a lot of salt - 1/4 tsp with each glass of OJ and 1 tsp with the OJ that sits next to my bed ready for the inevitable 12.30am/2.30am/4.30am nightly wakings.

    I will try the vit d on the skin and minimising supplements for a while to see if that makes any difference. I'm going to try juicing up some watermelon as I love that stuff! The OJ that I buy is pulp free and enzyme free, so I do trust it. There is no residue when strained through a fine muslin cloth.
     
  9. Mittir

    Mittir Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,034
    You can replace 1 quart of milk with equivalent amount cheese, greek yogurt ( strained yogurt) or home made farmer's cheese. Strained yogurt and farmers cheese has less calcium and adding some egg shell powder can solve that problem.
    You can add sugar or honey to these to increase carb intake. Some honey can be allergenic.

    Watermelon has to be fully ripe. Unripe or partially ripe watermelon has lots of starch.
    Juice from Green grapes without sulfur can be a good substitute for OJ.
    You can never trust store bought juice, even if they do not use pulp or enzyme.
    You can try home made OJ to see if it is makes any difference.
     
  10. OP
    radix

    radix Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Thanks for the suggestions Mittir, I'll definitely try some of those.
    I suppose I would have to put up with getting more fat if I substituted cheese for no fat milk. Maybe I could cut back on the coconut oil to compensate.

    How can you tell if a watermelon is fully ripe before you open it?

    I'll give the homemade OJ a go, although that would be prohibitively expensive to do long term, as would the grape juice, as I would only really trust organic.
     
  11. Bluebell

    Bluebell Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    I agree with Mittir to try cutting out the supplements for a bit.

    Something else I have found is that the timing of the supplements makes a difference. Many of them can be stimulating and disturb sleep, for me:
    Vitamin D best taken 1st thing in morning, to mimic morning sunlight
    Vitamin K definitely revs me up
    Some people find aspirin disturbs sleep, not the case for me though
    Coconut oil can also be stimulating so some people would take it away from bedtime.

    Hope some of this helps - does not solve your main problem, but might move you in right direction.
     
  12. Bluebell

    Bluebell Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    Oo, very interesting! Are you saying coffee improved your liver function, and how did you know that?
    Sounds like a massive amount of coffee compared to me: I've been having about 2g (1 rounded teaspoon) in a mug. So you take about 14 rounded teaspoons, wow - do you feel at all wired after that?

    Also Mittir, so you are having about 30g of sugar in a glass of milk before bed? I have been having about 8 grams or so per glass, so it's very helpful to hear what other people are doing. Maybe I'm not having enough.
     
  13. Mittir

    Mittir Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,034
    I do lots of blood test on regular basis. I have noticed when i increase coffee intake my liver ALT and AST
    goes down. I eat lots of sugar and it also increases liver ALT and AST. My understanding is that if someone wants to
    eat a lot of sugar they need to have a good liver and for that adequate protein,Thyroid, B vitamins ( weekly Liver)
    etc are essential. Strangely, i do not feel restless after drinking this amount of coffee.
    I think adding lots of sugar and milk make coffee tolerable for me.
     
  14. j.

    j. Guest

    The proportion and intensity of vitamin D producing waves are at their peak at noon. I don't know but I doubt that vitamin D production is highest early and the morning.
     
  15. Bluebell

    Bluebell Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    That's true actually, and the skin would carry on producing D for a while after the skin exposure. So scratch that one.
     
  16. OP
    radix

    radix Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Bluebell,

    Unfortunately I don't understand how to do quotes, so you said:

    "Something else I have found is that the timing of the supplements makes a difference. Many of them can be stimulating and disturb sleep, for me:
    Vitamin D best taken 1st thing in morning, to mimic morning sunlight
    Vitamin K definitely revs me up
    Some people find aspirin disturbs sleep, not the case for me though
    Coconut oil can also be stimulating so some people would take it away from bedtime."

    I am taking all of the above supplements at night for the very purpose of aiding sleep.
    I read somewhere here that Peat recommends D for sleep. The K is to be taken at the same time as aspirin.
    The aspirin and the coconut oil are taken at night in order to mitigate or prevent the release of PUFA and the proliferation of the stress cycle.

    I have eaten a lot of PUFA in my time and I don't think that it is coincidence that it is only at night (when cortisol naturally reaches its highest and when I'm not able to eat regularly to control stress response) that I experience the stress symptoms. During the day my temps are high, concentration is good and energy is good.

    It would seem to me that not taking those supplements at bedtime would make taking them, at all, a pointless process?
     
  17. Bluebell

    Bluebell Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    Ok, maybe that was not a good idea after all! I just thought I'd pass on that sometimes supplements can have a stimulating effect and it might be worth experimenting to see if avoiding supplements at bedtime could help. In the past I've found it helpful to cut all supplements, then add back one by one, looking for reactions. Sometimes we have individual reactions above and beyond the theoretical benefits. Also some are long-acting rather than giving an immediate effect. & they correct your metabolism over weeks and months. So for example, I think that for aspirin, you don't need the K at the exact same time, it's more that your tissues just need enough K in them to deal with the side effects of the aspirin. It was just a thought really - sounds like you have good reasons for taking them at night, so scratch my comments!

    I'm following this thread with interest as I have also had problems feeling worse at night in the past - I am much better now (though not fully recovered) but the improvements were gradual and I cannot pin it to one thing. It makes sense that your stress hormones could be rising at night and causing these issues. A question I'd be asking is, why is this happening for you, when most people don't have their stress hormones rising that much at night? What is the root cause for you? Could it be the PUFAs being released, or high estrogen, or ...?

    I do know how it feels, when you want to sleep, but your body startings winding up and up, doing the opposite of resting. It's extremely frustrating.

    I wonder what the ideal bodily hormonal state is, for the deepest and most healing sleep, and how it should change over the night? Cortisol, adrenalin, thyroid hormones, sex hormones, others? I think there is a difference between the generally touted view on this in the media/from doctors (eg. loads of melatonin produced from tryptophan-->serotonin), and what Peat would say would happen in an optimally running body.
     
  18. Bluebell

    Bluebell Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    Thanks so much, that is really helpful.

    So am I interpreting this right, that high sugar is a bit of a stress on your liver?

    I feel that I could do with improving liver function. I am doing the good amount of protein, and thyroid. For B vitamins, is liver the only thing you do? (I have around 150 grams per week). Anything else we can do to improve liver function? I was kind of under the impression that regular sugar would be good for the liver, but maybe that's not so after all.

    One thing I find with coffee is that my skin looks a bit tired/grey when I have it. If I cut it out completely, my skin looks noticeably more glowing and healthy. That says to me that maybe I am not healthy enough to handle it yet. I always make sure to have it after meals, and with enough milk fat/sugar.

    Sorry I just realised this is veering off topic - radix, I do not mean to hijack your thread.
     
  19. OP
    radix

    radix Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Bluebell, you wrote:
    " Also some are long-acting rather than giving an immediate effect. & they correct your metabolism over weeks and months. So for example, I think that for aspirin, you don't need the K at the exact same time, it's more that your tissues just need enough K in them to deal with the side effects of the aspirin. It was just a thought really - sounds like you have good reasons for taking them at night, so scratch my comments!"

    I will try taking the K in the morning, and maybe I'll try leaving out the aspirin on one or two nights

    " A question I'd be asking is, why is this happening for you, when most people don't have their stress hormones rising that much at night? What is the root cause for you? Could it be the PUFAs being released, or high estrogen, or ...?"

    I think it is normal for cortisol to rise at night - the peak cortisol production for healthy people is 4am. This is because we haven't been eating all night, and so the body releases cortisol to break down liver glycogen.

    I think that my liver is not in a good state and so my glycogen doesn't go very far. As soon as I have used up the sugar from my bed time snack, I'm immediately going in to the stress cycle as I have very little glycogen.

    Therefore, perhaps I need to work on keeping stress hormones as low as possible during the day in order to build up my liver.
    I'm pretty sure that I have issues with estrogen/serotonin too, as my gut has always been pretty horrible and the slightest whiff of starch or fibre and all the bad old gut stuff comes straight back.

    I drink a lot of coffee already. So I don't think I can really add more!

    Just gotta keep experimenting I spose :roll:
     
  20. Mittir

    Mittir Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,034
    There are studies that showed fructose causing fatty liver, but when they supplemented
    with choline or adequate protein (IIRC it was about 22% of calories, which is very close to RP
    recommendation) this problem did not happen. Chris Masterjohn Has a nice artcile on this.
    RP once mentioned in an interview that he does not recommend Lecithin, because it
    is unsaturated fat. Choline is grouped under Lecithin, so i guess choline is also off the list.
    RP frequently talks about strengthening the liver with 80 grams of protein, B vitamins and thyroid.
     
Loading...