EXCESSIVE URINATION - PLEASE HELP

[Velve921]

Hello, I am 27 and found the forum through typing Ray Peat in google. I have been currently Peating for 4.5 months. I will say my mentor who is a specialist in Peatarian teachings had been preaching these ideals for years and I always doubted his vision. It was this past March 2014 that I finally hit rock bottom. I've had an excessive urination issue for 3 years...50 times a day at the highest and 30 times a night at the highest.

Other symptoms:

chronic fatigue
depression
insomnia
poor memory
inability to focus
terrible ADD
...the list goes on

The main issue that I believe is causing a domino effect is the excessive urination at night. I have not slept a whole night since I was a child without waking up.

Childhood Diet:

Pizza, soda, candy, fast food, etc... all that is processed...virtually no fruits, veges, grassfed meat or dairy.

20s Diet:

Paleo low carb/high protein/high fat/warrior diet....this is what put me over the edge.

Too much meat, veges, fish oil ,nuts/seeds, fasting, too much coffee, and no glucose/fructose whatsoever.

Current Diet:

Gelatin, shrimp, grassfed milk, cheese, butter, OJ, coconut oil, tropical fruits, potatoes, carrots, eggs, and ice cream...no more coffee.

2 epsom salt baths a day under red light.

My urination is about 2 times a night now but I am still long ways away from seeing the light.

I also just had 2 mercury crowns, 2 mercury fillings and 1 root canal removed. So as you can see everything most likely will get darker before it gets lighter.

These are all just the basics of where I am, there is still lots more to my agenda but I feel this will give everyone a heads up.

2 big questions:

1. Any and all ideas to help with my urination issue would be greatly apppreciated! I am so exhausted and ready to get over this...has anyone else out there dealt with this issue? If so please chime in!

2. I am live in St. Louis during the summer and Chicago during the winter...are there any Peatarians in these areas? It be nice to have people in the area that I can relate to.


I look forward to meeting everyone on this forum and sharing this quest for health and well being.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Good to have you aboard mate!

Things I've done that have made a big difference are

1. More carbs/sugars and salt. Salt everything!

2. Aspirin. Aspirin seems to make me either hold my water better, evaporate it or just delay the urgency that would normally wake me up to urinate. Not sure what the mechanism is. Even during the day I notice if Im using aspirin that I dont urinate as frequently. Slept all last night without getting up to pee. Usually I get up once.

3. Keep fluids/high water content foods lower, especially round bed time.

4. Salt!

 

[tara]

Welcome,
Sounds like you are washed out. If I'm reading you right you are on an upward trend? If so, good.
How much are you eating and drinking? Are you eating, drinking and salting to appetite?
What colour output? If it's very pale, then more carbs and salt and less liquids as Gl;itch.e says may help. If it's dark yellow/brown, then other factors may be at play, and you won't want to drink less.
Liver is good for adding some more minerals (and vitamins).

Are you often cold?

Is the insomnia of the can't get to sleep in the evening variety, or the wake up too early and can't get back to sleep variety? I often need to snack in the night to get a good night's sleep, and keeping my mouth shut helped. But i'm lucky, I don't usually have to get up in the night. How's your breathing? Calm, slow, nasal, diaphragmatic day and night? Mouth-breathing at night bumps up stress hormones - if you are doing that it could be another factor to tackle.

Have you read these?:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/salt.shtml

 

[aguilaroja]

...I've had an excessive urination issue for 3 years...50 times a day at the highest and 30 times a night at the highest.

Other symptoms: chronic fatigue, depression, insomnia, poor memory, inability to focus, terrible ADD...the list goes on

The main issue that I believe is causing a domino effect is the excessive urination at night. I have not slept a whole night since I was a child without waking up.
....My urination is about 2 times a night now but I am still long ways away from seeing the light....

Welcome to the forum. It is encouraging to hear reduced troubling frequency of bladder problems. WADR, one thing not mentioned is whether routine careful medical assessment has been done. Has there been a chronic or recurrent infection? Are there anatomic hindrances? Have you been told that the condition is, for instance, interstitial cystitis?

Second, sleep disturbance itself is not a minor thing. Sleep debt can contribute to many of the issues listed.

Third, one possibility is that the frequent urination is a part of depleted metabolism. Please start tracking resting pulse and temperature. Go through a list of low thyroid symptoms and (mainly for females) estrogen excess symptoms to see if many factors fit.

Though it is difficult to document definitively, in some cases it seems more optimal progesterone function can improve smooth muscle tone and in turn improve bladder function. But this is only one possibility. Good organ muscle function, like good skeletal muscle function, needs steady metabolic energy. Many metabolic supports can have a positive influence.

---
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ro ... ging.shtml

"Hypothyroidism has been identified as a factor in all of those. Good thyroid function is necessary for resistance to bacterial infection, for regulation of blood sugar, neurotransmitters, and hormones related to mood, and for the formation of progesterone. Progesterone regulates smooth muscle tone, including the walls of veins, so that a deficiency allows veins to enlarge. It also prevents overgrowth of fibrotic tissue, and in some contexts may inhibit angioneogenesis."

http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging ... rone.shtml

"Szent-Gyorgyi spent most of his career studying muscles--from the anal sphincter to pigeon breast to tense goats. One of his most interesting experiments investigated the effects of estrogen and progesterone on the heart muscle. He showed that estrogen excess prevents the increase of stroke volume as the speed increases, but that progesterone increases the stroke volume as the heart accelerates, making pumping more effective without unnecessary acceleration of the heart rate. These effects are parallel to Selye's observation that estrogen imitates the shock reaction."

 

[Velve921]

Glitche,

I add salt to everything I drink...in the middle of the night I keep OJ with salt and gelatin by the toilet to sip when I pee. I occassionally do aspirin, how much do you do?

Thanks for the response!

 

[Mittir]

Niacinamide should help by lowering Free Fatty Acids. RP has mentioned
that albumin carrying unsatured FFA damages the kidney.
Salt and albumin both are needed to bind water and good level
of albumin can be maintained by adequate good quality protein.
RP thinks at least 80 grams of animal protein is essential.
Potato juice is a good source of vegetable protein.
Low thyroid and high estrogen both are responsible for water retention
and other health problems. Excess blood sugar can lead to this problem.
Fructose is very good at keeping blood sugar steady and it is easily metabolised.
High fructose fruits juices like apple, pears, mango and watermelon can be
helpful. Fiber in whole fruits can be problematic for people with bad gut bacteria.

 

[Velve921]

Tara,

My urine is typically light yellow/clear. Right now I stand about 3000-3500 kcals a day. My main concoction that I sip on throughout the day:

Kalona milk with OJ, salt, gelatin, and coconut oil. I will do about 40 oz of this total with 3-4 tbsp of coconut oil and 4-5 tbsp of gelatin added.

3 eggs a day
2-3 oz of kerrygolds cheese.
1 white potato
1 carrot
1 pint of ice cream (Hagandaas)
6 oz of meat or fish (shrimp)
Tropical fruit 2x a day

I am not completely sure about my breathing...how do I know?!

My insomnia has become specific to the wake up to urinate. If I did not wake up I'd be golden! My sleep is crazy now...I can take a 5 minute nap and dream within that time. Thoughts?

Thanks Tara!

 

[Velve921]

Aguilaroja,

My temps and RHR in March were in 95s/60bpm at night. Now I am waking up in the 97s/78bpm. Also, the morning after my mercury was removed my temp was 97.7. Normally my temp would always be high 96s. And temps during the day since are consistent in the 98s.

I agree my metabolism has been depleted. I do progest e before bed to assist in the progesterone function as well as pregenenolone to calm the brain.

Thanks!

 

[Velve921]

Mittir,

How much niacinamide do you recommend? Have you seen good results? noticeable?

I always combine glucose and fructose at every meal as recommended by peat. OJ, watermelon, sweet potato are my favorite fructose sources.

 

[Velve921]

Also, I have 10 doctors in 3 years and tried every test under the sun..all have no clue! My last kidney specialist says drink less liquid and it will stop. So I have given up on doctors.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Do you always wake up at some specific time? If so what's that time?

Do you use sodium bicarbonate? Organic acids may irritate the bladder, which will make you go to the toilet even though you bladder isn't full. This was one of my issues. NaHCO was a huge part of the solution to my problem along with avoiding foods high in oxalic acid. But lately the I seem to tolerate those better and better.
As a saide note; I think oxalic acid/ kidney stones are just part of a larger picture, low metabolic rate, uric acid, lactid acid, and many more things.

Do you use thyroid hormone? If not I'd consider taking this along with pregnenlone. Like I said, I have had these problems myself too. Sometimes I went 7-8 times a night on low carb/veggie rich diet. Mine issues have partly been resolved since 1,5y or so. I didn't use pregnenolone and/or thyroid at the time, but these have helped to completely resolve the issue and also make me sleep much better. ADH, CRH and TRH are hormones produced by the hypothamalus, you could investigate if there's any interaction in hormone regulation/expression?? (I never researched this as there is no need anymore, however CRH and TRH are both reduced when supplementing pregnenolone and thyroid, so maybe ADH could 'restore' if this is part of your problem). Has your ADH ever been tested?

 

[Velve921]

Hey Sulkerbulk,

I typically go to sleep around 9:30 and wake up at 12ish, 3ish, and up between 5 and 6.

I brush my teeth and use deodorant with baking soda...I have been doing his since March and have seen no side effects.

I have tested my adrenal function twice and initially I was in adrenal fatigue, last December it Said my cortisol was super high in the morning rather than low and I finally have a better curve.

I have been on dessicated thyroid since march, 1 grain a day, 1/2 a grain of t4 during the night. Have before before and the other 2 times when I wake up.

I have not had my ADH tested before...it may be something to consider. Any other thoughts?

THanks for all your help!

 

[tara]

Tara,
My urine is typically light yellow/clear. Right now I stand about 3000-3500 kcals a day. My main concoction that I sip on throughout the day:

Kalona milk with OJ, salt, gelatin, and coconut oil. I will do about 40 oz of this total with 3-4 tbsp of coconut oil and 4-5 tbsp of gelatin added.

3 eggs a day
2-3 oz of kerrygolds cheese.
1 white potato
1 carrot
1 pint of ice cream (Hagandaas)
6 oz of meat or fish (shrimp)
Tropical fruit 2x a day

Just so you know, the others who have posted on your thread so far are more experienced than me, and further along in solving their own issues than I am. Temeratures could be interesting.
Did you ever try the kidney specialist's advice for a few days to see if made a difference? It might be worth a try for a few days if you haven't. If you did try it, what happened? Did you feel better? Pee less? If you are only drinking about a litre of fluids that doesn't look like a huge amount, but if you are peeing clear that is often a sign that your body is not able to handle that much at the moment. Some people boil their milk to reduce it to half the volume, some turn some of their milk into farmer's cheese so they get some of the good protein with less water.
I assume you've had blood sugars tested to rule out diabetic type causes?

I am not completely sure about my breathing...how do I know?!

If you've got someone around at night you can ask them to check. If you wake up with a dry mouth or dribble on the pillow, or snore, that's a clue to an open mouth. During the day, you can pay attention now and then and notice whether you mouth is open or closed, and whether you chest or just your belly is moving when you are not working hard. Resting breath should be pretty soundless, nasal, diaphragmatic. I've largely shifted to nasal breathing by by paying attention, practicing, using tape at night (some people use a chin strap). There are other ways, but I retrained from more chest to more diaphragmatic breathing by tightening a belt around my chest for an hour or more a few times. These changes help with my sleep. I learned from normalbreathing.com. Many here use bag-breathing. Others have other methods to reduce CO2 losses.
I also often have to snack when I wake up in the night if I want to get back to sleep quickly.

My insomnia has become specific to the wake up to urinate. If I did not wake up I'd be golden! My sleep is crazy now...I can take a 5 minute nap and dream within that time. Thoughts?

Frustrating. I'm lucky, I seldom have to get up in the night. But when I do I find it hard to get back to sleep too. Hopefully you can improve on the key issue.

 

[Suikerbuik]

When I woke up that early it was usually way too little calories/salt, allergens, or extremely low cortisol - to low to maintain blood sugar.

Normally I used to wake up 3 am, each day for 3 years straight. This a poor functioning liver, stressed with endotoxin and hormonal imbalances, and not able to store enough glycogen. Make sure you get enough nutrients and avoid any allergens.
For me supplementing an additional B1 (25 mg), B3 (125mg ), B5 (125mg ) and B6 (10 mg) diluted in 1L enriched orange juice is really helpful in assisting the liver. A second most important thing for the liver health, at least for me, is a good flow of your lymph fluid. Massaging directly is helpful to increase this flow. So easy, but when your liver is fragile, this can really make a difference in waking up or not at 3 am.

5-6 is just another indication that your body is poor in storing energy. This is just another rush were your body is making stress hormones to free energy.

Okay, then I'd really consider taking pregnenolone for aldosterone and ACTH supression. Excess aldosterone is not desirable, but less sodium excretion is less volume loss. Hopefully this doesn't make you pee at night so your sleep will be better and your stress hormones will be lower. You can up your thyroid dose if it's needed - follow your pulse and temps. 1 grain can be a bit too low, I use 3-4 myself. also for me T3-only before bedtime works much better than T4/T3.

Try to get 1,5 gram NaHCO a day. You can disolve it in some water.

ADH is part of a bigger picture, not sure if it's worth it solely. Just the fact that you've been to 3 doctors before, you could have had it tested. It can indicate something if there's anything wrong physiologically. just like I said, I don't know what its interrelationships with CRH, TRH,pituitary function etc are, but I think there are undoubtedly.

Just as a reminder that a lot is possible when you understand your physiology. My issues regarding this have all mostly been solved as said, this week I even drank 1L of carbonated water at 8 PM without the need to wake up, not even once. Went to bed around 10 pm and woke up 6 am to get ready for work :). The whole week I didn't wake up once. Only 2 years ago I would wake up at least at 3-4 times (I had improved somewhat already compared to my really low carb times).

 

[aguilaroja]

...I typically go to sleep around 9:30 and wake up at 12ish, 3ish, and up between 5 and 6. ...

I did not see it stated directly, but it seems the problem is not only waking to urinate, but also promptly returning to sleep.

Have you done any trials with an antihistamine? Here, the anti-cholinergic "side effect" on the bladder of less frequent urination may be useful. In views expressed by Dr. Peat, some different antihistamines have uses in context to support metabolism, both by lowering histamine and in other effects. These "older" antihistamines are also generally sedating, which may also be useful if sleep is disturbed.

Since other metabolic supports are underway, an antihistamine trial could be a transitional assist.

Cyproheptadine (periactin) is also known for its effect of lowering sertonin. Diphendyramine (Benadryl) tends to lower adrenalin. I have read that Dr. Peat also mentions doxylamine succinate though I do not recall hearing him speak about it.

The different sedating antihistamines have "washout" periods that vary with the person, leaving some with morning drowsiness at moderate doses. It is best to start with a trial both when it is okay to sleep late, and with a small amount to start. YMMV.

http://raypeat.com/articles/hormones/h1.shtml

"Histamine mimics estrogen's effects on the uterus, and antihistamines block estrogen's effects (Szego, 1965, Szego and Davis, 1967). Estrogen mimics the shock reaction. Stress, exercise, and toxins cause a rapid increase in estrogen. Males often have as much estrogen as females, especially when they are tired or sick. Estrogen increases the brain's susceptibility to epileptic seizures, and recent research shows that it (and cortisol) promote the effects of the "excitotoxins," which are increasingly implicated in degenerative brain diseases.

Just after Szego's work was published, I suggested that antihistamines might be used to resist some of estrogen's toxic effects, including cancer. A few people tried the idea, with some benefit,..."

http://raypeat.com/articles/other/auton ... tems.shtml

"Histamine was an early candidate, before acetylcholine was discovered to be the main parasympathetic agent. This view of histamine was fostered by the older idea of “trophic nerves,” which easily became identified with the parasympathetic system. When acetylcholine was identified as the transmitter or agent of the parasympathetic system, it tended to take on many of the qualities, including the “trophic” functions, that had grown up around the idea of the parasympathetic system, but the emphasis on acetylcholine led to a general neglect of the associations of histamine, and the mast cells that produce much of it, with the autonomic nervous system. (The current trend seems to be emphasizing a close integration of mast cell function with nervous function.)"

 

[Velve921]

Sulkerbulk,

I was told that more than 2 grains of thyroid could be detrimental to the thyroid gland? Thoughts? Did you notice a big difference with urination, sleep, energy, etc.. once you went to 3-4 grains?

How long were you Peating when you started to see drastic improvement in urination? Did you go through a lot of tough times? Set backs?

I ask because everything always gets worse before it gets better. If you could share more of your journey that would be great. I have not met someone else with the game problem as me.

Thanks again for feedback!

 

[Suikerbuik]

I have been told all kinds of things too . I keep things that people say in the back of my mind, but largely act to how my body feels and responds. People disagree about nearly everything, don't be afraid this may stress you. Act to your consciousness.
Anyway some don't need anything at all and some need 6 grain, follow your pulse, your temperature and blood tests may also help you find patterns and direct dose. For me, for what's worth it, thyroid (with pregnenolone) improved my functioning a lot. Recovery is much quicker, sleeping is way better, liver is happier, digestion is better (not solved) and more things.

I think there's more people suffering these issues, a lot more actually. These people have these issues in a less annoying form and just accept the fact the pee at night 1 or 2 times. A body unable to regulate water homeostasis is a very common thing since the body is roughly 60% water.

My biggest improvements came before peating. I already gave up paleo though, that just ****88 me up.. This was something that helped me tremendously. Then removing most oxalate rich and allergic foods was a huge relieve as was using sodium bicarbonate and extra salt (did these before I knew about Peat too). Since I have been reading Peat's work I began introducing thyroid and pregnenolone and this helped me further. All these were significant.

I don't track my journey so precisely this stresses me out. I just relax and I take things as they come, feel what my body does and adjust to knowlegde and feeling. To be honest the whole urinating issue, although it was annoying at certain periods I needed to go 6 times per night, wasn't my focus at all. I knew this was the cause of some underlying physiology (CFS, caused by gut dysfunction, hormonal issues etc.). So I didn't write down exactly how things changed in urinating frequency and why they may have changed or if they became worse initially.

I am not so much of the view that everything always have to get worse before improving. That just depends of what were talking about, what we try to achieve, how we try to adjust things, etc. Something related to urinating frequency shouldn't get worse if something is helping.

So I don't know if it is worth it to write down my journey.. Everyone is different. It is about you, how do you respond to things? Try the things I mentioned which are certainly going to make a difference. Don't stress so much, subconscious stress can make you pee too I can tell you. A few years ago once I read a book from Eckhart Tolle 'the power of now' or something, every time I read a chapter my urinating frequency reduced from 2-3 times to 1 time a night and made my sleep became much more calm!! And it was only this book, it did something with my state of mind really. Now the applied knowledge and theoretical understanding how a human body might give me this sort of peace and acceptance, a higher metabolic rate may well be part of this.

Feel free to ask me questions about my journey, you're also free to pm me. However you are not me, and you have to go along your own journey, educate yourself and improve your own consciousness. Try these things, undergo the experience and take what is usefull for you :).

 

[Velve921]

All interesting info.

My diet is extremely low and oxalats foods because of peat...why is oxalate so bad?

How much Sodium bicarbonate a day do you do? And how do you consume it? I currrently just brush my teeth and use it for deodorant.

I am just so mentally drained..this is by far the most difficult thing in life I've ever had to overcome. I cannot tell if my regimen is right and I just need to hold course? Or are there important concepts that I am missing? Besides the advice you have given me is there anything else that just seems so simple I am missing? Can you look through the entire thread with all my details and tell me what you think?

Thanks again!

 

[Peata]

In addition to what you've already been advised, I would cut my liquid intake some and replace it with solid foods.

 

[pboy]

the question isn't really what color is it, its how much at once? If you have any organs enlarged or growths/bulges in the abdomen, it can put pressure on the bladder and make you feel like you have to go a lot, and only a little at a time. It should be a good 10 ounces per most urinations or theres something else going down