Anybody here really cured histamine intolerance?

[Kray]

Yes thats the same thing.

I think I can get betaine anhydrous today without having to order TMG from A***zon. Cursory reading mentioned taking at night could disrupt sleep.

So I will focus on foods rather than supplements for my Bs. I am really encouraged by your comment on this perhaps being at the root of my problem. Could it be as simple as synthetic vitamins not being the best, or not needing nearly as much as I (didn't realize) was getting from food already? I do eat well- lots of good-quality animal protein. raw dairy, pastured eggs.

You are a godsend. I am truly grateful to you.

 

[redsun]

I think I can get betaine anhydrous today without having to order TMG from A***zon. Cursory reading mentioned taking at night could disrupt sleep.

So I will focus on foods rather than supplements for my Bs. I am really encouraged by your comment on this perhaps being at the root of my problem. Could it be as simple as synthetic vitamins not being the best, or not needing nearly as much as I (didn't realize) was getting from food already? I do eat well- lots of good-quality animal protein. raw dairy, pastured eggs.

You are a godsend. I am truly grateful to you.

You dont need much B-vitamins generally but of course everyone is different. Some feel really good with little side effects. But not many. You should also stop the Bs and this may improve you quite quickly by itself.

 

[Kray]

You dont need much B-vitamins generally but of course everyone is different. Some feel really good with little side effects. But not many. You should also stop the Bs and this may improve you quite quickly by itself.

Sorry to add another question- is it necessary to worry about taking TMG without B6, folate, or B12 foods (I say foods, since I shouldn't be taking the B vites)? Or, as long as my daily food intake includes rich sources of those vitamins, it shouldn't matter? I'm sure you are right, but I have trouble wrapping my head around my having enough B vitamin complex foods since I virtually eat zero grains. As you say, everyone is different- sometimes we find out the hard way!

Is there anything else you can think of to add or subtract from my diet, if histamine is my issue? I am hopeful about your thought that removing the B supps might be a strong start, along with adding TMG. Another tack- is histamine a result, rather than the cause, of my problems, if I am not methylating properly? Meaning that if these things (-B supps and + TMG) are helpful, I may be able to tolerate some foods I have previously thought I am intolerant to (chocolate, wheat, tomatoes)?

Thanks!

 

[redsun]

Sorry to add another question- is it necessary to worry about taking TMG without B6, folate, or B12 foods (I say foods, since I shouldn't be taking the B vites)? Or, as long as my daily food intake includes rich sources of those vitamins, it shouldn't matter? I'm sure you are right, but I have trouble wrapping my head around my having enough B vitamin complex foods since I virtually eat zero grains. As you say, everyone is different- sometimes we find out the hard way!

Is there anything else you can think of to add or subtract from my diet, if histamine is my issue? I am hopeful about your thought that removing the B supps might be a strong start, along with adding TMG. Another tack- is histamine a result, rather than the cause, of my problems, if I am not methylating properly? Meaning that if these things (-B supps and + TMG) are helpful, I may be able to tolerate some foods I have previously thought I am intolerant to (chocolate, wheat, tomatoes)?

Thanks!

The BHMT pathway which uses TMG doesnt depend on B-vitamins at all. There still important for the folate methylation pathway, but those are two different pathways. You still need to be getting the B-vitamins from food but its not directly needed for TMG. Why do you not eat grains? Does even just rice not work for you? Meat, eggs, fruits and vegetables should still get you plenty of B vitamins, though you need to be mindful of getting B1 as it is only high in certain fruits and vegetables and starches/grains. Pork is also high in B1.

 

[Kray]

The BHMT pathway which uses TMG doesnt depend on B-vitamins at all. There still important for the folate methylation pathway, but those are two different pathways. You still need to be getting the B-vitamins from food but its not directly needed for TMG. Why do you not eat grains? Does even just rice not work for you? Meat, eggs, fruits and vegetables should still get you plenty of B vitamins, though you need to be mindful of getting B1 as it is only high in certain fruits and vegetables and starches/grains. Pork is also high in B1.

I don't eat wheat, more specifically. I usually get sinus/mucus issues, get flu-like symptoms (isn't is also very non-Peaty?). Are there certain B vitamins you are thinking of, or is there something more about grains I am missing? I do eat white rice, maybe once every 2 weeks.

As for foods with B1, folate, I get a variety from the "top 10" lists.

Re-reading your comments, you suggest TMG for several weeks. Does a short course of TMG really fix high histamine? How does that work?

 

[redsun]

I don't eat wheat, more specifically. I usually get sinus/mucus issues, get flu-like symptoms (isn't is also very non-Peaty?). Are there certain B vitamins you are thinking of, or is there something more about grains I am missing? I do eat white rice, maybe once every 2 weeks.

As for foods with B1, folate, I get a variety from the "top 10" lists.

Re-reading your comments, you suggest TMG for several weeks. Does a short course of TMG really fix high histamine? How does that work?

Thats good then if you are eating the right variety of foods naturally rich in those Bs you should be alright. Grains are the major source of B1 in most people's diets this is why I mentioned it. If you dont eat grains you have to be smart about getting enough B1 and it sounds like you are.

The opioid peptides that form from the breakdown of gluten in wheat increase histamine release, just like opiate medications, just not as severe, this may be part of why symptoms worsen from wheat when you have high histamine.

TMG for a few weeks does not fix high histamine. Its enough time to know if it is improving your histamine symptoms. You may need to take it for months to see a dramatic improvement. Again, it doesnt work alone. This is why I also mentioned choline, creatine, higher protein intake they all contribute to either methylation directly as a methyl donor, or sparing methyl groups that would otherwise be used to make them. Histamine in the body is deactivated by methylation. Over time, providing enough methyl donors should reduce symptoms.

 

[Kray]

Thats good then if you are eating the right variety of foods naturally rich in those Bs you should be alright. Grains are the major source of B1 in most people's diets this is why I mentioned it. If you dont eat grains you have to be smart about getting enough B1 and it sounds like you are.

The opioid peptides that form from the breakdown of gluten in wheat increase histamine release, just like opiate medications, just not as severe, this may be part of why symptoms worsen from wheat when you have high histamine.

TMG for a few weeks does not fix high histamine. Its enough time to know if it is improving your histamine symptoms. You may need to take it for months to see a dramatic improvement. Again, it doesnt work alone. This is why I also mentioned choline, creatine, higher protein intake they all contribute to either methylation directly as a methyl donor, or sparing methyl groups that would otherwise be used to make them. Histamine in the body is deactivated by methylation. Over time, providing enough methyl donors should reduce symptoms.

Sorry for regressing or not getting the point here, but why wouldn't I just supplement methyl folate and methyl B12? I'm not into high intensity training either, so I wouldn't probably be a good candidate for creatine or super-high protein. Will I have to avoid high histamine foods, or what would you expect to finally make methylation work, beyond taking TMG indefinitely?

 

[redsun]

TMG is a methyl donor and along with getting adequate protein and choline in the diet will reduce histamine over time. The word fix implies something is broken. So it will not "fix" anything, but will reduce excess histamine which will reduce or stop your symptoms due to too much histamine. This is a relative thing. Eventually if you take tons of methyl donors, you could end up with histamine that is too low which has its own problems. At most I would try this for a few months and then stop and see how your symptoms are. You may not need to take it again for awhile or may be never. The reason this even happens (high histamine) in the first place is due to genetic mutations which cannot be fixed.

B12 and folate unless shown low in a blood test will be pointless to supplement. Methylated version of them provide very little actual methyl to the process. What you actually need are methyl groups, hence a methyl donor (TMG).

 

[Kray]

TMG is a methyl donor and along with getting adequate protein and choline in the diet will reduce histamine over time. The word fix implies something is broken. So it will not "fix" anything, but will reduce excess histamine which will reduce or stop your symptoms due to too much histamine. This is a relative thing. Eventually if you take tons of methyl donors, you could end up with histamine that is too low which has its own problems. At most I would try this for a few months and then stop and see how your symptoms are. You may not need to take it again for awhile or may be never. The reason this even happens (high histamine) in the first place is due to genetic mutations which cannot be fixed.

B12 and folate unless shown low in a blood test will be pointless to supplement. Methylated version of them provide very little actual methyl to the process. What you actually need are methyl groups, hence a methyl donor (TMG).

Thank you for breaking that down into simpler terms for me. I understand better now. As you said, don't put the cart before the horse. Patience. I will focus on good nutrition and use of TMG.

Good reading references you could direct me to?

Again, thank you so much for your time and input!

 

[Kray]

@redsun
Is it possible to be low in histamine, if I find myself somewhere between the high and low picture you describe? Although I do have histaminic symptoms with itchy inflamed skin, I do have slow bowel motility unless I keep Mg levels high. Also, a seeming intolerance to some food (or what seems to be, since my rash comes and goes in flareups), that could be associated with certain known histamine triggers mentioned here and elsewhere. I just want to be sure which end of the spectrum I'm on. I guess it would be helpful to know what more symptoms go along with low histamine.

 

[Kray]

Been reading up, and two things caught my eye that I want to get your feedback on: 1) methyl adaptogens- like curcumin, quercetin, lycopene. These apparently can help balance, whether under- or overmethylated. 2) While high-dose methyl donors may be helpful in acute cases, it is not recommended to take them long-term.

What are your thoughts on these points, based upon your experience and/or research?

 

[Kray]

No just eat a few eggs yolks daily and try to eat a decent amount of meat daily as it rich in methionine and creatine and a decent source of choline. You want to make your own SAM, not supplement it directly. This is ideal. Life extension has a good TMG supplement. I would take 1-2g daily in the morning for a few weeks and see if you improve. Its important that you also have folate sources in the diet as well. All these things need to be present for best results.

What are the best folate sources in your diet?

 

[Kray]

If you have been taking B-vitamins for awhile then this alone could be behind all your issues. The mechanisms on how B-vitamins can worsen symptoms in those with high histamine are complicated. To put it simply, they either tend to increase histamine directly or enhance glutamate and acetylcholine activity.

Glutamate directly increases histamine release. Acetylcholine, by generally increasing glutamate activity, then increases histamine release. The problem of course is because histamine is just too high, so anything that elevates it slightly, directly or indirectly, causes problems. The more histamine you have the more intolerant you tend to be.

You generally won't always have to take it, but lets be patient and not put the cart before the horse. You should work on getting B-vitamins from food. If you don't get much from food then you need to work on that. Meat, eggs, starches, some vegetables and fruits should provide them in adequate quantities.

Other than (red) meat, what starches, vegetables, and fruits would best cover all the Bs?

 

[aniciete]

Other than (red) meat, what starches, vegetables, and fruits would best cover all the Bs?

Rice, potatoes, tortillas, root vegetables, eggs, seafood, etc. For folate, I have found honeydew melon and tropical fruits great sources

 

[Kray]

Rice, potatoes, tortillas, root vegetables, eggs, seafood, etc. For folate, I have found honeydew melon and tropical fruits great sources

Thanks for your input!

 

[Sefton10]

What are the best folate sources in your diet?

Lentils are a great source.

 

[David PS]

Other sources of folates

Source:Folate : Functions,Deficiency Symptoms ,Vegan Foods,Daily Intake

 

[Kray]

Other sources of folates

Source:Folate : Functions,Deficiency Symptoms ,Vegan Foods,Daily Intake

Just musing...of all nutrients needed for a healthy metabolism, we find majority from animal sources. However, most, if not all, folate sources are from plant foods. This on its own seems to justify inclusion of such foods containing folate, perhaps at least to the degree in which we need the amount of the nutrient.

Thanks to all for your input. Don't know about you, but the practical reminders are what I need from time to time!

 

[David PS]

Just musing...of all nutrients needed for a healthy metabolism, we find majority from animal sources. However, most, if not all, folate sources are from plant foods. This on its own seems to justify inclusion of such foods containing folate, perhaps at least to the degree in which we need the amount of the nutrient.

Thanks to all for your input. Don't know about you, but the practical reminders are what I need from time to time!

Not getting adequate folate is one of the issues with the carnivore diet. Folic acid has been proven to be not metabolized the same as folate. David Smith thinks the combination of b vitamins and omega 3s are need to keep Alzheimer's at bay.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unguMlKkc74

 

[For Peat's Sake]

I'm not so sure cured would be accurate. It's always going to be around and in me. Definitely got a good grip of it though. Would have been sneezing, constant sinus troubles and allergies previously. But took on a massive overhaul after being really ill. Blood letting, plenty of natural vitamin C, sorting gut microbiome, dietary sources of copper, gelatin to repair gut issues, being aware of mould, storing foods properly, awareness of foods higher in histamine and balancing that a little better, stress management, epsom salt baths, supplementing magnesium. My experience would tell me it's not impossible to feel like you can regain control. I suffered with hayfever for the best part of 35 years, last year nothing, this season ok, a touch of it. It is doable, but takes a multitude of approaches and dedication. I was so ill so there was no other choice but to stick at it.