Body-wide endothelial inflammation/damage

[artist]

Still having the back pain intermittently even though I haven’t been doing the transdermal copper (I actually stopped taking copper the last few days). Wish I knew what I did…

 

[artist]

Back pain seems to have been a potassium thing! I wonder if that means a bunch of new cells were made or something. Since I've been off starch entirely and had a few days of oregano oil my veins have finally stopped being actively inflamed, they are much better. Definitely there is lots of structural damage to them but they don't seem to be in a constant state of breaking down further right now.

 

[YamnayaMommy]

Did you put the DMSO copper on any of your affected areas? Was there any improvement in the appearance of the capillaries or veins?

I’m a fellow sufferer in vascular incompetence. But my problems clearly started with pregnancy #1 and deteriorated further over pregnancies 2 and 3.

The spider veins and blotching have gotten worse over the last year, including at the site, above my right knee, where a vascular surgeon injected foam into my saphenous vein to knock it out altogether.

I have not tried copper. Or half the stuff you have. I’m a busy mom and don’t care as much. But I was considering experimenting with copper.

Your bad experience, however, is giving me second thoughts.

 

[artist]

@YamnayaMommy I took copper for a long time after vein episode one (2019) with no negative side effects, and I had no negative side effects with any internal use of copper this time around either. For some reason the DMSO with the copper in the 2mg quantities might have just been too much too soon. It definitely made me a believer in DMSO’s power as an absorption aid. I only used it this way three times because I was worried about the side effects, but my back pain honestly went away when I mixed up an electrolyte drink so I don’t think it was something too serious. Seems like it just put a demand on minerals. I wouldn’t be afraid of taking low dose copper (obviously I’m not a doctor) but the DMSO method is a bit of a Wild West tactic, and for me it was way too intense. If copper is what you need then it can definitely help, and I’ve heard of it helping other people’s veins.

I am however now doubtful that I can resolve my vein issues with copper alone. Since I have changed a few things, things have already gotten better for me. #1 was cutting out starch again. I really think for me this there is a major bacterial component to the venous issues. There are a lot of reasons to believe bacteria could play a role in varicose veins in general. For me things stopped getting worse once I went back to basically a starch-free/specific carbohydrate diet. I then added a supplement with 100% RDA calcium (citrate), magnesium and vitamin D as well as 3 mg of boron. This really seems to be helping maintain homeostasis in a way I haven’t been able to do in the past when I was getting no calcium. I just feel more solid somehow. I am now venturing to add a probiotic to help ensure the balance of bacteria in my body is better (single strain L Plantarum from Jarrow) as well as high dose serrapeptase, which so far hasn’t caused any problems.

 

[artist]

Well it’s been an extremely stressful month and that always complicates any observations I could make, but I want to write down some things just in case

- I haven’t gotten any major heart palpitations issues since including the calcium supplements
- also been taking serrapeptase which has made my body much less swollen. No signs of it reversing vein damage yet. Idk why I said high dose because it isn’t relatively speaking, i take 80k units once or twice a day
- almost seems like I may have induced a zinc deficiency with the calcium because I lost my appetite slowly and then completely. Zinc seemed to restore it but it also gave me a white tongue/furry teeth and very sluggish the next day, so basically the most blatant supplement-induced bacterial/yeast overgrowth I’ve had in years. I had become convinced zinc was a bug feeder in like 2017 which is why I haven’t taken it in a very long time
- tried lactoferrin today (apolactoferrin) and it disappeared my vein inflammation almost completely within hours, they stopped burning and sticking out (which they do almost all the time now). Ofc the damage is still there and they still look blue, but this is encouraging. I really do feel like the inflammation is reliably LPS induced which is why avoiding starch is so helpful for me, and lactoferrin is an LPS antagonist as well as antimicrobial
- also had a horrible reaction to a silica supplement about a week ago which turned out to be picaparticle based and I feel like an idiot. Made my veins visibly worse with one dose and I felt fluid in my lungs (??) Apparently the adverse reactions people often have to this product (livingsilica) are because picaparticle products are often CONTAMINATED WITH LPS. Great.

 

[Korven]

Well it’s been an extremely stressful month and that always complicates any observations I could make, but I want to write down some things just in case

- I haven’t gotten any major heart palpitations issues since including the calcium supplements
- also been taking serrapeptase which has made my body much less swollen. No signs of it reversing vein damage yet. Idk why I said high dose because it isn’t relatively speaking, i take 80k units once or twice a day
- almost seems like I may have induced a zinc deficiency with the calcium because I lost my appetite slowly and then completely. Zinc seemed to restore it but it also gave me a white tongue/furry teeth and very sluggish the next day, so basically the most blatant supplement-induced bacterial/yeast overgrowth I’ve had in years. I had become convinced zinc was a bug feeder in like 2017 which is why I haven’t taken it in a very long time
- tried lactoferrin today (apolactoferrin) and it disappeared my vein inflammation almost completely within hours, they stopped burning and sticking out (which they do almost all the time now). Ofc the damage is still there and they still look blue, but this is encouraging. I really do feel like the inflammation is reliably LPS induced which is why avoiding starch is so helpful for me, and lactoferrin is an LPS antagonist as well as antimicrobial
- also had a horrible reaction to a silica supplement about a week ago which turned out to be picaparticle based and I feel like an idiot. Made my veins visibly worse with one dose and I felt fluid in my lungs (??) Apparently the adverse reactions people often have to this product (livingsilica) are because picaparticle products are often CONTAMINATED WITH LPS. Great.

I don't have much input except that I, too, have to avoid starch to avoid being sick. From what I've seen there must be at least... 3 of us on this forum that have this negative reaction to starch. And I seriously think we should start a "no starch" support group because this way of eating is so freaking hard to sustain. I very easily get derailed from seeing friends and family eat pizza, bread, grains and starch and I start thinking "WHY SHOULDN'T I EAT STARCH". I am naturally super lean and if I cant get bolus doses of carbohydrates from starch I become susceptible to unpleasant adrenaline spikes.

This is me when thinking about eating grains and starches:

I have spent years trying to make starch work, gut microbiome tests, probiotics, prebiotics, antimicrobials, RX antibiotics, blah blah you name it, and I still don't tolerate it. A few days of eating starch and boom I get "sick" and depressed.

Do you have negative reactions to fermented dairy like kefir? I am thinking that may be a more balanced way of getting in calcium in your diet. Also a thought about the apolactoferrin is that is a powerful iron chelator, so perhaps you have some sort of issue with iron overload? Have you ever gotten your ferritin, transferritin etc, checked?

For me 2 grams of quali C vitamin C per day seems to help a bit with keeping LPS in check (and eating no starch).

 

[Zsazsa]

- also had a horrible reaction to a silica supplement about a week ago which turned out to be picaparticle based and I feel like an idiot. Made my veins visibly worse with one dose and I felt fluid in my lungs (??) Apparently the adverse reactions people often have to this product (livingsilica) are because picaparticle products are often CONTAMINATED WITH LPS. Great.

I am sorry to hear that. Sounds like a nasty supplement!

 

[artist]

I don't have much input except that I, too, have to avoid starch to avoid being sick. From what I've seen there must be at least... 3 of us on this forum that have this negative reaction to starch. And I seriously think we should start a "no starch" support group because this way of eating is so freaking hard to sustain. I very easily get derailed from seeing friends and family eat pizza, bread, grains and starch and I start thinking "WHY SHOULDN'T I EAT STARCH". I am naturally super lean and if I cant get bolus doses of carbohydrates from starch I become susceptible to unpleasant adrenaline spikes.

This is me when thinking about eating grains and starches:

View attachment 39837

I have spent years trying to make starch work, gut microbiome tests, probiotics, prebiotics, antimicrobials, RX antibiotics, blah blah you name it, and I still don't tolerate it. A few days of eating starch and boom I get "sick" and depressed.

Do you have negative reactions to fermented dairy like kefir? I am thinking that may be a more balanced way of getting in calcium in your diet. Also a thought about the apolactoferrin is that is a powerful iron chelator, so perhaps you have some sort of issue with iron overload? Have you ever gotten your ferritin, transferritin etc, checked?

For me 2 grams of quali C vitamin C per day seems to help a bit with keeping LPS in check (and eating no starch).

Lmao I so relate… it does make me feel less crazy to hear it’s the same for you. I know Ray talks about starch and so some people on here do avoid it, but not everyone here seems to really REQUIRE no-starch, and it’s a different level of pain! I have tried so many strategies as well and all it seems to do is delay healing and get me in more trouble. I am also thin and it can be hard to eat enough and not have adrenaline without starch (i especially find it harder to keep electrolytes normal). For some reason I’m having an easier time with it this go-around, but I eat a more MUFA based diet now instead of saturated fat (I lost tolerance for things like butter in the midst of all this) so maybe my metabolism is a little slower than before.

I think the iron idea is valid…I’ve got like 10 working theories on the mechanism of how this all happened and iron overload does seem like a possible consequence of chelating copper with molybdenum. In any case it was amazing to wake up today and have my veins still look relatively normal so I’m definitely going to stick with it.

Sadly I don’t tolerate dairy or vitamin C supplements…I’m still trying to figure out why C makes my veins go nuts

 

[artist]

I am sorry to hear that. Sounds like a nasty supplement!

Yeah I almost feel like I should warn people! If you’re going to take silica (something that is already probably regarded with suspicion around here) don’t go with that one… I’m not the only one who had a reaction like this, apparently some people who took it for a month+ wound up with lung scarring. Scary

 

[Zsazsa]

Yeah I almost feel like I should warn people! If you’re going to take silica (something that is already probably regarded with suspicion around here) don’t go with that one… I’m not the only one who had a reaction like this, apparently some people who took it for a month+ wound up with lung scarring. Scary

A few years ago I took a silica supplement that made me look 10 years younger overnight - I can only imagine what it did for my endothelium!

Nowadays I buy silica-rich mineral water from time to time, because it is highly diuretic and therefore impacts adrenals.

There are many herbs that provide silica in a cup of tea - horsetail, nettle or gotu kola for instance. Oats and bamboo shoots are good food sources as well.

But in your case you'd better stay away from them for now!

Sadly I don’t tolerate dairy or vitamin C supplements…I’m still trying to figure out why C makes my veins go nuts

Salicylate would always make my veins bulge... I think what fixed it for me were the right thyroid and estradiol dosages.

 

[artist]

@Zsazsa ugh I’m tempted to try silica again, if I do I will stick to one of those safer forms but I will wait a while… That’s interesting that estradiol helped you with salicylates, I’ve considered that my estrogen might be low (induced by the molybdenum) but I need to test it. I think since taking boron I don’t have symptoms of that anymore and my cycle is regular, but hopefully a doctor will be willing to run a panel.

 

[artist]

Looks like lactoferrin is a strong tryptase inhibitor, which to me sounds like another word for mast cell stabilizer.

Also, I feel silly, it looks like what I have just says lactoferrin not apolactoferrin. Not sure what to make of that…

Edit:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10868465_The_inhibition_of_mast_cell_activation_by_neutrophil_lactoferrin_Uptake_by_mast_cells_and_interaction_with_tryptase_chymase_and_cathepsin_G

“Inhibitors of mast cell tryptase and chymase can be effective as mast cell stabilising compounds. Lactoferrin has been reported to inhibit tryptase activity, but its actions on other serine proteases of mast cells and its potential to alter mast cell function are not known. We have examined the ability of lactoferrin to inhibit mast cell tryptase, chymase and cathepsin G, and investigated its potential to modulate the activation of human mast cells.”

“IgE-dependent histamine release from skin mast cells was inhibited by up to 50% following incubation with lactoferrin (50 or 500 nM).”

Wow!!

 

[Zsazsa]

“IgE-dependent histamine release from skin mast cells was inhibited by up to 50% following incubation with lactoferrin (50 or 500 nM).”

Wow!!

It sounds like you hit jackpot!

If I am not mistaken you mentioned vax and/or covid infection, I haven't particulary looked it up on the internet, but from observation of myself and people around me, the spike protein or whatever surely intensify histamine reactions.

 

[artist]

@Zsazsa definitely! I already had MCAS and the vaccine hit me very hard. It could be that this is all more related to the vax than the molybdenum cause it has definitely continued to escalate in the 8 months since I stopped the Mo. This tryptase/lactoferrin thing feels like the first real lead I’ve had in a decade since I figured out I had histamine intolerance. I’m surprised lactoferrin isn’t discussed for MCAS more often

 

[artist]

I took 750mg lactoferrin yesterday and 1g (divided) today and my veins are still looking normal! (As I said the damage still seems to be there but they don’t look noticeable or stick out) And they FEEL normal which is incredible. If this is all the worse they looked I could definitely live with it, maybe I wouldn’t even seek sclerotherapy…

Additionally when I flossed today it was the first time (ever?) it hasn’t been a struggle to get the floss between my teeth, ostensibly because my gums aren’t swollen. Usually I cut my gums in the process

I’m so excited but also terrified the other shoe is about to drop. In the time I’ve been sick I haven’t been able to tolerate

- claritin
- Allegra
- Benadryl
- quercetin
- cyproheptadine
- vitamin C
- famotidine or any H2 blocker
- DAO enzymes
- bromelain

So basically almost any MCAS treatment except Zyrtec (which does make me mildly grouchy/increases adrenaline)

Meanwhile lactoferrin is for me far stronger than any of those (including Zyrtec) and without side effects so far. I’m really stunned.

 

[Bart1]

Have you looked into EDS (Ehlers Danlos Syndrome) ? I finally found out I some how "acquired" the EDS somehow. This can happen with a virus/Lyme or whatever. Of course there's a genetic component. But people can get the symptoms and when there is hypo metabolism it's hard to get out of.

 

[Zsazsa]

@artist do you have a recent complete blood count?

 

[InChristAlone]

That's amazing the lactoferrin is working. I bought some but my anxiety has prevented me from trying it. Garrett Smith was marketing the crap out of it to help solve toxic bile/liver issues. I don't know that much else about it.
Edited to add: he believes toxic bile is the root of things like histamine intolerance.

 

[InChristAlone]

Dr Pfeiffer treated high histamine like this:
"Calcium, taken in the form of calcium salts, induces the release of the body's store of histamine. Methionine detoxifies histamine by methylating the ring structure forming N-methylhistamine. We have shown that methionine significantly lowers blood histamine in their patients. Zinc and manganese should be supplemented to aid the calcium-methionine program and frequently provide sufficient relief.
In summary, the treatment program for histadelia is:
1. Vitamin C 1.0 gm AM & PM
2. Vitamin B-6 to normal dream recall
3. DL-Methionine 500 to 1000 mg AM & PM
4. Calcium salt 500 mg AM & PM
5. Phenytoin (Dilantin) 100 mg AM & PM
6. Low protein diet
7. Avoid multivitamins and folic acid"

 

[Korven]

Lmao I so relate… it does make me feel less crazy to hear it’s the same for you. I know Ray talks about starch and so some people on here do avoid it, but not everyone here seems to really REQUIRE no-starch, and it’s a different level of pain! I have tried so many strategies as well and all it seems to do is delay healing and get me in more trouble.

I think the iron idea is valid…I’ve got like 10 working theories on the mechanism of how this all happened and iron overload does seem like a possible consequence of chelating copper with molybdenum. In any case it was amazing to wake up today and have my veins still look relatively normal so I’m definitely going to stick with it.

Yah I am done with trial'ing and error'ing... potatoes and oatmeal taste good but ain't worth the suffering. I am getting off the starch/no starch rollercoaster. It's not fun anymore. I H A T E the feeling of starch poisoning; feeling sick with the 'starch flu', a general malaise, CFS flareups, weak, lethargic, depressed/low motivation, skin issues etc, etc. Makes me want to throw out all the rice out of my house.

I was also thinking about iron overload because no starch diets often means a larger intake of calories from meat, which means a lot of iron. If you have gene mutations for heraditary hemochromatosis then eating even small amounts of red meat daily will slowly build up over time. But as you have figured already it sounds more like a MCAS/histamine intolerance issue. I had no idea lactoferrin was such a powerful anti-histamine substance!

Dr Pfeiffer treated high histamine like this:
"Calcium, taken in the form of calcium salts, induces the release of the body's store of histamine. Methionine detoxifies histamine by methylating the ring structure forming N-methylhistamine. We have shown that methionine significantly lowers blood histamine in their patients. Zinc and manganese should be supplemented to aid the calcium-methionine program and frequently provide sufficient relief.
In summary, the treatment program for histadelia is:
1. Vitamin C 1.0 gm AM & PM
2. Vitamin B-6 to normal dream recall
3. DL-Methionine 500 to 1000 mg AM & PM
4. Calcium salt 500 mg AM & PM
5. Phenytoin (Dilantin) 100 mg AM & PM
6. Low protein diet
7. Avoid multivitamins and folic acid"

Useful information. I am doing something similar with 1-2 grams of vitamin C, calcium from fermented dairy, zinc from red meat, etc, to keep histamine in check.