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Zinc : Copper - finding the right ratio progress Thread

Motif

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Neverending Story for me that hopefully will end soon.
to sum up the last months:

Zinc and copper deficient (low ceruloplasmin too) and this is causing my histamine issues (mostly skin symptoms).

i have this for many years, maybe all my life, and when i found out about my low blood levels some people told me to not supplement copper or eat high copper foods because people have too much of it anyways in the liver etc and I should just take the zinc. Done. First it helped and after a few days my symptoms got worse.

then I was reading to only take copper and with zinc supplements I will never get copper up and rid of my issues. Done. Pretty much the same. First days high copper improved symptoms and then it got worse.

the only thing that really makes a positive difference is to take both. But I still got to find out the right ratio.
Eating liver every week did not raise my copper levels. Two oysters everyday did raise them very slightly only, but symptoms improved a lot, but still not good enough.

zinc sulfate helps the most somehow and I take liquid copper now too. Take very high doses helped the most and I wonder if I should go even higher or just experiment with other ratios.

the good thing is I feel a change in hours. Zinc and copper supplements and my skin itching and eczema is much better soon. One day without and it’s getting much worse again, even when I take high zinc and copper for weeks.

So i need to take it everyday and right now I take 2 x daily 15 mg zinc sulfate / 1,5 mg copper.

-
i will take 45 mg zinc / 4,5 mg copper for some days soon and see if this helps even more

Then try different ratios, like
25 mg zinc / 4 mg copper,
20 mg zinc / 2 mg copper,
30 mg zinc / 2 mg copper and so on.


like i said I luckily feel a difference really quick, so let’s see.

I’ll update this after a few days of taking different doses.
hopefully I’ll find a ratio that completely gets rid of my symptoms.
 

Motif

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Somebody has an idea why I feel improvement in my skin / scalp itching in hours when I take zinc and copper?

I mean shouldn’t it take months to feel a effect?

but it only lasts for a few hours. It’s so strange. What’s wrong with my body?
 

Motif

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Took 45 mg of zinc sulfate over the last weeks and 3- mostly 4 mg copper.
New blood test today.

didn’t take any supplement today.

let’s see. My symptoms are still there. Improved, but still bad.

Edit:
I will switch to zinc picolonate Tablets and copper gluconate after the test. Can take the taste of the liquid stuff anymore.

i got those still here, any suggestions to what forms I should try next? Maybe just get the jarrow zinc balance ?
 
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Ben.

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I am in no way an expert, but how are you able to tell that its zinc or copper thats the problem and not something else?

Maybe "hunting" for the ideal bloodwork trough "its low so i need to supplement it" isn't the right way to go about this?
You made many posts/threats the past months about digestive issues and other stuff too. It sounds a little like there is more going on than just a zinc/copper balance issue.

Either way im curious what others will speculate and how things will turn out for you going down this path.
 
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LauriePartridge

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Somebody has an idea why I feel improvement in my skin / scalp itching in hours when I take zinc and copper?

I mean shouldn’t it take months to feel a effect?

but it only lasts for a few hours. It’s so strange. What’s wrong with my body?
I have had immediate responses to both but only positive with copper for histamine reduction. I found I had to supplement with copper daily for a very long time and even missing a day would set me back. It is a co factor for DAO which breaks down histamine. It does take a lot of trial and error to figure out the right balance at various times. I just do not like zinc supplementation and favor copper (but I get a lot of zinc in my diet). I have never had positive responses from supplementing with zinc and find doing so makes my histamine reactions worse and gives me hypo symptoms. When I did supplement zinc, I had to have a ratio of about 1 mg of copper for every 5 mgs of zinc. But I no longer supplement either and feel extremely well. My histamine problems are really subsiding. Getting enough B6 was crucial for me and avoiding oxalates in managing my symptoms. But it really is so individual. I also was folate deficient (in diet) so fixing that is really helping.
 

Motif

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I am in no way an expert, but how are you able to tell that its zinc or copper thats the problem and not something else?

Maybe "hunting" for the ideal bloodwork trough "its low so i need to supplement it" isn't the right way to go about this?
You made many posts/threats the past months about digestive issues and other stuff too. It sounds a little like there is more going on than just a zinc/copper balance issue.

Either way im curious what others will speculate and how things will turn out for you going down this path.

yeah I mean I would like to know why I’m having those zinc and copper issues too.

still zinc and copper help my symptoms like nothing else I tried, so of course I’ll stick to it.
I have had immediate responses to both but only positive with copper for histamine reduction. I found I had to supplement with copper daily for a very long time and even missing a day would set me back. It is a co factor for DAO which breaks down histamine. It does take a lot of trial and error to figure out the right balance at various times. I just do not like zinc supplementation and favor copper (but I get a lot of zinc in my diet). I have never had positive responses from supplementing with zinc and find doing so makes my histamine reactions worse and gives me hypo symptoms. When I did supplement zinc, I had to have a ratio of about 1 mg of copper for every 5 mgs of zinc. But I no longer supplement either and feel extremely well. My histamine problems are really subsiding. Getting enough B6 was crucial for me and avoiding oxalates in managing my symptoms. But it really is so individual. I also was folate deficient (in diet) so fixing that is really helping.
interesting!

how much copper did you take for how long and why do you think you don’t need it anymore ?

and what Are you eating for folate or how does your diet look like in general?

@LauriePartridge
 
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LauriePartridge

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I have had immediate responses to both but only positive with copper for histamine reduction. I found I had to supplement with copper daily for a very long time and even missing a day would set me back. It is a co factor for DAO which breaks down histamine. It does take a lot of trial and error to figure out the right balance at various times. I just do not like zinc supplementation and favor copper (but I get a lot of zinc in my diet). I have never had positive responses from supplementing with zinc and find doing so makes my histamine reactions worse and gives me hypo symptoms. When I did supplement zinc, I had to have a ratio of about 1 mg of copper for every 5 mgs of zinc. But I no longer supplement either and feel extremely well. My histamine problems are really subsiding. Getting enough B6 was crucial for me and avoiding oxalates in managing my symptoms. But it really is so individual. I also was folate deficient (in diet) so fixing that is really helping.
Also I reduced my magnesium supplementation and feel better on that too. I have been suspicious about whether it reduces copper. Copper absorption as affected by supplemental calcium, magnesium, manganese, selenium and potassium - PubMed
 
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LauriePartridge

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yeah I mean I would like to know why I’m having those zinc and copper issues too.

still zinc and copper help my symptoms like nothing else I tried, so of course I’ll stick to it.

interesting!

how much copper did you take for how long and why do you think you don’t need it anymore ?

and what Are you eating for folate or how does your diet look like in general?
I took about 1-2 mgs daily of ionic copper sulfate for over a year. I had a bad reaction recently to it so I stopped. I just figured I didn't need the extra and my body was absorbing it better. Increasing b6 (I was deficient in diet) seemed to make a difference indirectly. Low B6 interferes with zinc absorption meaning it causes retention which then causes copper interference. My low copper symptoms seemed to get better with extra b6 (in diet) like I wasn't feeling cold anymore and my fingers didn't retain fluid and stiffness and my histamine reactions improved.

Well thanks to youngsinatra's positive report about chicken liver, I tried it again and am really noticing a positive difference from it. Immediately after I eat it, my histamine reactions subside. It's really high in folate and helps me meet the RDA. I also have started drinking some OJ again which seems to help as well. I normally eat about 2 egg yolks (pastured) daily along with a 3-4 cups of grass-fed milk (non fortified), parmesan cheese, steak, dehydrated bananas (high in b6), mango, cocoa (1 teaspoon), grass-fed butter, some white rice (just because I like it), red bell pepper ( for vit c and it's low in oxalates) and homemade marshmallows made with beef gelatin and white sugar. And odd as it might sound, I avoid vit D which seems to make me much worse. I think because it increases oxalate absorption (which triggers more histamine for me) and it has an estrogenic effect (in excess). But oxalates are critical for me because they increase histamine and interfere with mineral absorption.
 

Motif

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I took about 1-2 mgs daily of ionic copper sulfate for over a year. I had a bad reaction recently to it so I stopped. I just figured I didn't need the extra and my body was absorbing it better. Increasing b6 (I was deficient in diet) seemed to make a difference indirectly. Low B6 interferes with zinc absorption meaning it causes retention which then causes copper interference. My low copper symptoms seemed to get better with extra b6 (in diet) like I wasn't feeling cold anymore and my fingers didn't retain fluid and stiffness and my histamine reactions improved.

Well thanks to youngsinatra's positive report about chicken liver, I tried it again and am really noticing a positive difference from it. Immediately after I eat it, my histamine reactions subside. It's really high in folate and helps me meet the RDA. I also have started drinking some OJ again which seems to help as well. I normally eat about 2 egg yolks (pastured) daily along with a 3-4 cups of grass-fed milk (non fortified), parmesan cheese, steak, dehydrated bananas (high in b6), mango, cocoa (1 teaspoon), grass-fed butter, some white rice (just because I like it), red bell pepper ( for vit c and it's low in oxalates) and homemade marshmallows made with beef gelatin and white sugar. And odd as it might sound, I avoid vit D which seems to make me much worse. I think because it increases oxalate absorption (which triggers more histamine for me) and it has an estrogenic effect (in excess). But oxalates are critical for me because they increase histamine and interfere with mineral absorption.

oh so it was no quick fix and you took it that long. Then I might just keep taking it.

i don’t know if oxalates are an issue for me.
i tried to add whey protein and just after one day my histamine symptoms got worse. Same for cacao when I tried it for copper
 
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LauriePartridge

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Yes!! Don't let yourself feel defeated. You will figure it out. It took me a long time before I could eat histamine foods like cocoa and gelatin and OJ. Just listen to your body and let yourself do a little dance - a few step forwards and maybe some backwards until you heal and get balanced. Cocoa is also very high in oxalates and it's a histamine liberator but it can also have an anti histamine effect so I limit it to a teaspoon but it also makes me feel well. I have found reducing oxalates helps me to tolerate more histamine foods. I always take setbacks as learning opportunities as frustrating as they are. You are really one step closer to healing though if you can figure out what is working and even not working at a given time. One thing I learned too was just because something isn't working at one point and you have to take a break from it, doesn't mean you won't benefit from it later and try again. And someone once advised me to try things in "small increments" which also helps to learn your tolerance or intolerance of something.
 
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Motif

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Yes!! Don't let yourself feel defeated. You will figure it out. It took me a long time before I could eat histamine foods like cocoa and gelatin and OJ. Just listen to your body and let yourself do a little dance - a few step forwards and maybe some backwards until you heal and get balanced. Cocoa is also very high in oxalates and it's a histamine liberator but it can also have an anti histamine effect so I limit it to a teaspoon but it also makes me feel well. I have found reducing oxalates helps me to tolerate more histamine foods. I always take setbacks as learning opportunities as frustrating as they are. You are really one step closer to healing though if you can figure out what is working and even not working at a given time. One thing I learned too was just because something isn't working at one point and you have to take a break from it, doesn't mean you won't benefit from it later and try again. And someone once advised me to try things in "small increments" which also helps to learn your tolerance or intolerance of something.

thanks. I hope I will cure this when I keep taking zinc and copper. I already take for quiet some time now. I hope it works and won’t take too long
 

Motif

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Ok, my results are there.

zinc is 973 (600-1200)

Copper is 757 (700-1400)

cp is 0,22 (0,2-0,6)


what should I do now?
Any advice?

Few weeks ago copper was 706 and zinc was 681.

@redsun
 

Motif

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So liver and cacao didn’t bring my levels up. Neither copper gluconate up to 8 mg daily and neither liquid copper or chlorophyllin.

what should I do? Intravenous? How is this done? How often do I need to get this ?
 

youngsinatra

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How much beef liver did you consume?

I think copper gluconate has a pretty poor bioavailability.

Lack of effects of copper gluconate supplementation

A double-blind study was done giving 10 mg of copper/day as copper gluconate or placebo capsules for 12 wk. The seven subjects receiving copper gluconate had no change in the level of copper in the serum, urine, or hair. There was also no change in the levels of zinc or magnesium.“
 

Motif

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How much beef liver did you consume?

I think copper gluconate has a pretty poor bioavailability.

Lack of effects of copper gluconate supplementation

A double-blind study was done giving 10 mg of copper/day as copper gluconate or placebo capsules for 12 wk. The seven subjects receiving copper gluconate had no change in the level of copper in the serum, urine, or hair. There was also no change in the levels of zinc or magnesium.“
I’ll start copper bisglycinate soon.

i are about 400 g of beef liver in a week. Lots of cacao everyday too. Pear juice too which has a lot of copper allegedly
 

youngsinatra

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I’ll start copper bisglycinate soon.

i are about 400 g of beef liver in a week. Lots of cacao everyday too. Pear juice too which has a lot of copper allegedly
Wow, this should really give you like plenty and plenty of copper. I don‘t know to be honest what to do about it.
 

Motif

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My hypothesis of why levels don’t go up:

low stomach acid , but I was taking bitter drops for months and it didn’t help.


sibo , but years ago I tried all kinds of stuff . Like oregano oil , grapeseed extract, rifaximin and many other things with no change.


any suggestions?
 

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