Zinc : Copper - finding the right ratio progress Thread

[youngsinatra]

Have you experimented with thyroid hormone yet?

 

[Motif]

Have you experimented with thyroid hormone yet?

Just those average ones doctors prescribe.
i had to fight to get it, but it didn’t change anything for me.
And I’m a bit scared to play with hormones on my own.

 

[youngsinatra]

Just those average ones doctors prescribe.
i had to fight to get it, but it didn’t change anything for me.
And I’m a bit scared to play with hormones on my own.

I see! Are you from Germany aswell? Quite impossible to get a T3/T4 mix here as they always give T4 only.

 

[Motif]

I see! Are you from Germany aswell? Quite impossible to get a T3/T4 mix here as they always give T4 only.

Yes, Germany.

I’ll try to support my digestion now with all kinds of stuff and hope that it makes a difference.

only two days without high doses zinc sulphate (but zinc bisglycinate) and my hair falls out like crazy

 

[youngsinatra]

Have you asked Ray about this issue via email?

Even though I think the most likely answer would be making sure your vitamin D is ~50ng/ml, having good calcium:phosphate ratio, thyroid supplementation, use of intestinal disinfectants.

 

[Motif]

Have you asked Ray about this issue via email?

Even though I think the most likely answer would be making sure your vitamin D is ~50ng/ml, having good calcium:phosphate ratio, thyroid supplementation, use of intestinal disinfectants.

i will.
What disinfectants?

 

[LauriePartridge]

Can you share your diet including liquids? What additional supplements (besides zinc/copper)? What are your symptoms?

I'm just concerned that supplemental zinc will interfere with your copper levels. When I was getting zinc overdose symptoms (from supplemental) my blood zinc levels were not that high. And my copper was borderline low like 1 point away.

Also, you might have already stated, but have you ever had your levels checked without any zinc/copper supplements so you have a baseline?

 

[youngsinatra]

i will.
What disinfectants?

So what I meant is that what I said will probably be Ray‘s answer, not necessarily my opinion on what is the answer to your specific problem. :)

Disinfectants that are recommended by him typically are ranging from the raw carrot salad, well-cooked white button mushrooms and antibiotics like tetracycline or penicillin VK.

 

[Motif]

@fradon

hi! Do you maybe have an idea?

 

[Motif]

Can you share your diet including liquids? What additional supplements (besides zinc/copper)? What are your symptoms?

I'm just concerned that supplemental zinc will interfere with your copper levels. When I was getting zinc overdose symptoms (from supplemental) my blood zinc levels were not that high. And my copper was borderline low like 1 point away.

Also, you might have already stated, but have you ever had your levels checked without any zinc/copper supplements so you have a baseline?

Just seeing this, sorry.

yeah I didn’t take any copper or zinc supplement for years. Both were low in blood. Always been.
Now this is the first time ever that I have good zinc levels, but I’m sure a few days without high zinc sulfate dose and I’m low again.

my skin gets much worse when I don’t get high dosed zinc everyday. I don’t get it.
Same for copper. A lot of copper and my symptoms get so much better in only hours. Next day with low copper intake and it gets worse again.

no idea why I feel this so quick.


diet. I don’t really have a diet. I vary a lot with foods, but probably I shouldn’t.

it’s just that I don’t tolerate a lot, but I still eat a lot of it, cause it just would be to restrictive
what does your diet look like?

 

[Motif]

Now I was reading high stomach acid could make deficiencies too. Why is it so hard to find out if we have too much or not enough ?

I’ll have a blood test btw again tomorrow.
my skin is bad over the last days and I want to know what’s going on.

 

[Motif]

Does it matter if I eat before zinc / copper blood tests?

 

[milkboi]

I see! Are you from Germany aswell? Quite impossible to get a T3/T4 mix here as they always give T4 only.

Easy to buy both T3 and T4 separate tho, even here in Germany

 

[Motif]

Easy to buy both T3 and T4 separate tho, even here in Germany

Yeah? Where?

 

[Kray]

I have had immediate responses to both but only positive with copper for histamine reduction. I found I had to supplement with copper daily for a very long time and even missing a day would set me back. It is a co factor for DAO which breaks down histamine. It does take a lot of trial and error to figure out the right balance at various times. I just do not like zinc supplementation and favor copper (but I get a lot of zinc in my diet). I have never had positive responses from supplementing with zinc and find doing so makes my histamine reactions worse and gives me hypo symptoms. When I did supplement zinc, I had to have a ratio of about 1 mg of copper for every 5 mgs of zinc. But I no longer supplement either and feel extremely well. My histamine problems are really subsiding. Getting enough B6 was crucial for me and avoiding oxalates in managing my symptoms. But it really is so individual. I also was folate deficient (in diet) so fixing that is really helping.

@LauriePartridge
I found your posts to be very helpful. I am suffering from skin rashes right now and had recently started taking liquid zinc sulfate (no copper). My diet is pretty good, overall similar to yours. You mentioned B6 is helpful for histamine. Does it need to be B6 form, or is P5P ok, and how much of either would you suggest for starters? I don't want to go the mineral route too fast and furious, if the B6 could resolve some issues going forward. I do take a B complex (Energin) and supplement individual Bs as I feel necessary, but not usually B6. I am not sure about me and oxalates, but I will study up on foods high in those and keep them down for a bit just to see if I get any improvements.

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[LauriePartridge]

Hi, yes B6 is a co factor for DAO production and histamine regulation. The trick is getting just the right amount. I don't supplement it because I can't find a small enough dosage to take. And I'm super careful with it because just taking 2.5 mgs of regular B6 3x a week (for about a month or more) caused toxic blood levels of it with all the crazy side effects (the symptoms of toxicity are similar to deficiency). My neurologist couldn't believe it or explain it (as B vitamins are supposed to flush out of your body so you technically can't overdose but I don't really believe that). So I am really cautious. But if I did supplement I would only use the p5p form in case I have a mthfr issue which makes me unable to metabolize it well. Also, I am too afraid of a supplement increasing serotonin. So I just make sure I get more from my diet like increasing meat helps - just focusing on the RDA amount.

B6 also affects copper and zinc absorption too.

A stable-isotope study of zinc, copper, and iron absorption and retention by young women fed vitamin B-6-deficient diets - PubMed

A 98-d study was conducted in young women to determine the effect of vitamin B-6-deficient diets on zinc, copper, and iron metabolism. Young women were fed vitamin B-6-deficient formula initially, followed by food diets containing four increasing amounts of vitamin B-6. Zinc, copper, and iron...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Effect of vitamin B6 and B1 deficiencies on the intestinal uptake of calcium, zinc and cadmium - PubMed

A chronic vitamin B6 deficiency in rats resulted in a non-specific increase (44- 51%) in the in vitro intestinal uptake of both essential (Ca and Zn) and non-essential toxic metal (Cd) ions, whereas an acute B6-deficient state only affected the Zn uptake rate. In vitamin B1-deficient animals, a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Folate is critical too but it has to be just right. Too little or too much causes problems. Too much will definitely increase histamine.

I'd be careful about supplementing zinc without copper unless you know you are low in zinc - but if you start to get low copper symptoms like fatigue, brain fog, cold temps it might mean you are getting too much zinc (along with a zinc taste)

And oxalates can trigger histamine release; but almost worse, they interfere with mineral absorption as they utilize a lot of magnesium and calcium which are really needed for good histamine regulation. Trying a low/medium oxalate diet is not very hard and might be helpful.

 

[Kray]

Thanks so much for your quick response and great information. You have not only studied up well, but your explanation is very easy for me to understand. Histamines are a very confusing subject to unwind.

I have underestimated what can happen with too many Bs. Like you, I always believed because they are water-soluble, what you didn't need you peed out. Good reminder that less may be more, and even none may be better than less! I read a little about B6 and folate in foods and it seems I get a fair amount on a weekly basis in my diet. Would weekly diet be a better gauge for intake than daily intake?

May I ask what vitamins or minerals you supplement on a regular basis? How do you best determine what and how much of each to take? Do you supplement with a B complex?

I appreciate your comments on the relationship between oxalates, histamine, and mineral deficiencies. I will have to read up on the foods that are high-oxalate as a reminder.

To summarize, what generally that is Peat-friendly do you try to incorporate into your diet on a regular basis to cover B6, folate, minerals, low oxalate?

 

[LauriePartridge]

Thanks so much for your quick response and great information. You have not only studied up well, but your explanation is very easy for me to understand. Histamines are a very confusing subject to unwind.

I have underestimated what can happen with too many Bs. Like you, I always believed because they are water-soluble, what you didn't need you peed out. Good reminder that less may be more, and even none may be better than less! I read a little about B6 and folate in foods and it seems I get a fair amount on a weekly basis in my diet. Would weekly diet be a better gauge for intake than daily intake?

May I ask what vitamins or minerals you supplement on a regular basis? How do you best determine what and how much of each to take? Do you supplement with a B complex?

I appreciate your comments on the relationship between oxalates, histamine, and mineral deficiencies. I will have to read up on the foods that are high-oxalate as a reminder.

To summarize, what generally that is Peat-friendly do you try to incorporate into your diet on a regular basis to cover B6, folate, minerals, low oxalate?

Hi sorry for the late response!! I try to go by daily intakes with B's just because they don't get stored like the fat solubles A, D, K, E.

I supplement with magnesium malate every day and some of Idealabs topical magnesium which I really like. I take a little B1 just because I have trouble getting enough in my diet. I also have niacinamide some times but in very low amounts as too much had a scary, negative effect on me. That's it for the Bs. And I use Idealabs TocoVit (vit E) which is excellent and has been a lifesaver. I also have topical A from Idealabs which I use only occasionally and topical Vit D from Idealabs which I use even less.

With magnesium malate (Seeking Health) daily at least 125 to 250 mgs but sometimes as much as 500 mgs. If I take a lot of Vit D or vit A, I need more magnesium. If my D is low, I don't. D really depletes magnesium. I get D from the sun now and haven't figured out what to do for the winter yet. I really don't like supplementing D as it just seems too strong at times giving a serotonin like reaction. But I definitely need it so I try to eat pastured eggs which are 4 to 5 times higher in D than regular. Low magnesium symptoms are trouble falling asleep, twitching and muscle pain/cramps particularly in my toes. I like the malate because I can't tolerate glycinate, and the citrate form is not good for oxalates as Vit C increases oxalates.

I use B1 just according to my daily intake. I only use a very little (from Pure Bulk) to make up for what I am missing in my diet. Same with B3.

Vit A is difficult for me to figure out. I try to go by how much D I am getting. Too much of one without the other causes hypo symptoms and histamine problems. But for the summer, I seem to do well enough with grass-fed dairy fat for my source of A. Like cream, butter, milk and cheese, especially parmesan cheese and pastured egg yolks. Chicken livers are excellent but I can build up too much A with them so I'm limiting them for now. I judge how much A I need by how I feel and how much D I am getting. It's similar to what others have posted like 3:1 or 5:1 ratio of A to D. I'm trying to get my D level in the high 40s and then I'll supplement maybe 500 or 1000 mgs daily or every other day depending on how I feel. But I will increase it if I start to get a lot of respiratory infections because when it gets low I get sick a lot. Also Vit E really balances A - so I take about 100 IUs daily and more if I feel like I have too much A and I need it to calm down.

I consume non homogenized grass-fed A2 milk - and use the cream to make butter or ice cream or custard. I eat a few pastured egg yolks daily (which are supposed to have a good amount of folate than average). I eat an ataulfo mango daily when I can because it's reported to give 70% folate per serving. Chicken livers are excellent for folate. I eat fresh pineapple and sometimes banana for folate and b6. I eat habanero peppers and some red bell pepper for C and they are low in oxalates. I also eat cooked peeled apples and spaghetti squash and white rice with butter and parmesan cheese. And chives for sulfur (in addition to eggs) which help with oxalates. And cottage cheese. I like to eat steak daily and sometimes pork loin (for Bs) and I will eat shrimp and oysters too. But lately a lot of steak because I don't think shrimp is very high in B6. I was drinking a lot of cocoa with homemade marshmallows (made with gelatin) but I think there are too many problems with cocoa so I've stopped for now. Same with OJ.

Also low folate symptoms are hangnails for me.

I don't mean to monopolize this thread but I hope the info helps.

 

[peter88]

Hi sorry for the late response!! I try to go by daily intakes with B's just because they don't get stored like the fat solubles A, D, K, E.

I supplement with magnesium malate every day and some of Idealabs topical magnesium which I really like. I take a little B1 just because I have trouble getting enough in my diet. I also have niacinamide some times but in very low amounts as too much had a scary, negative effect on me. That's it for the Bs. And I use Idealabs TocoVit (vit E) which is excellent and has been a lifesaver. I also have topical A from Idealabs which I use only occasionally and topical Vit D from Idealabs which I use even less.

With magnesium malate (Seeking Health) daily at least 125 to 250 mgs but sometimes as much as 500 mgs. If I take a lot of Vit D or vit A, I need more magnesium. If my D is low, I don't. D really depletes magnesium. I get D from the sun now and haven't figured out what to do for the winter yet. I really don't like supplementing D as it just seems too strong at times giving a serotonin like reaction. But I definitely need it so I try to eat pastured eggs which are 4 to 5 times higher in D than regular. Low magnesium symptoms are trouble falling asleep, twitching and muscle pain/cramps particularly in my toes. I like the malate because I can't tolerate glycinate, and the citrate form is not good for oxalates as Vit C increases oxalates.

I use B1 just according to my daily intake. I only use a very little (from Pure Bulk) to make up for what I am missing in my diet. Same with B3.

Vit A is difficult for me to figure out. I try to go by how much D I am getting. Too much of one without the other causes hypo symptoms and histamine problems. But for the summer, I seem to do well enough with grass-fed dairy fat for my source of A. Like cream, butter, milk and cheese, especially parmesan cheese and pastured egg yolks. Chicken livers are excellent but I can build up too much A with them so I'm limiting them for now. I judge how much A I need by how I feel and how much D I am getting. It's similar to what others have posted like 3:1 or 5:1 ratio of A to D. I'm trying to get my D level in the high 40s and then I'll supplement maybe 500 or 1000 mgs daily or every other day depending on how I feel. But I will increase it if I start to get a lot of respiratory infections because when it gets low I get sick a lot. Also Vit E really balances A - so I take about 100 IUs daily and more if I feel like I have too much A and I need it to calm down.

I consume non homogenized grass-fed A2 milk - and use the cream to make butter or ice cream or custard. I eat a few pastured egg yolks daily (which are supposed to have a good amount of folate than average). I eat an ataulfo mango daily when I can because it's reported to give 70% folate per serving. Chicken livers are excellent for folate. I eat fresh pineapple and sometimes banana for folate and b6. I eat habanero peppers and some red bell pepper for C and they are low in oxalates. I also eat cooked peeled apples and spaghetti squash and white rice with butter and parmesan cheese. And chives for sulfur (in addition to eggs) which help with oxalates. And cottage cheese. I like to eat steak daily and sometimes pork loin (for Bs) and I will eat shrimp and oysters too. But lately a lot of steak because I don't think shrimp is very high in B6. I was drinking a lot of cocoa with homemade marshmallows (made with gelatin) but I think there are too many problems with cocoa so I've stopped for now. Same with OJ.

Also low folate symptoms are hangnails for me.

I don't mean to monopolize this thread but I hope the info helps.

How do you use the vitamin e? Orally or topically?

 

[LauriePartridge]

Hi sorry for the late response!! I try to go by daily intakes with B's just because they don't get stored like the fat solubles A, D, K, E.

I supplement with magnesium malate every day and some of Idealabs topical magnesium which I really like. I take a little B1 just because I have trouble getting enough in my diet. I also have niacinamide some times but in very low amounts as too much had a scary, negative effect on me. That's it for the Bs. And I use Idealabs TocoVit (vit E) which is excellent and has been a lifesaver. I also have topical A from Idealabs which I use only occasionally and topical Vit D from Idealabs which I use even less.

With magnesium malate (Seeking Health) daily at least 125 to 250 mgs but sometimes as much as 500 mgs. If I take a lot of Vit D or vit A, I need more magnesium. If my D is low, I don't. D really depletes magnesium. I get D from the sun now and haven't figured out what to do for the winter yet. I really don't like supplementing D as it just seems too strong at times giving a serotonin like reaction. But I definitely need it so I try to eat pastured eggs which are 4 to 5 times higher in D than regular. Low magnesium symptoms are trouble falling asleep, twitching and muscle pain/cramps particularly in my toes. I like the malate because I can't tolerate glycinate, and the citrate form is not good for oxalates as Vit C increases oxalates.

I use B1 just according to my daily intake. I only use a very little (from Pure Bulk) to make up for what I am missing in my diet. Same with B3.

Vit A is difficult for me to figure out. I try to go by how much D I am getting. Too much of one without the other causes hypo symptoms and histamine problems. But for the summer, I seem to do well enough with grass-fed dairy fat for my source of A. Like cream, butter, milk and cheese, especially parmesan cheese and pastured egg yolks. Chicken livers are excellent but I can build up too much A with them so I'm limiting them for now. I judge how much A I need by how I feel and how much D I am getting. It's similar to what others have posted like 3:1 or 5:1 ratio of A to D. I'm trying to get my D level in the high 40s and then I'll supplement maybe 500 or 1000 mgs daily or every other day depending on how I feel. But I will increase it if I start to get a lot of respiratory infections because when it gets low I get sick a lot. Also Vit E really balances A - so I take about 100 IUs daily and more if I feel like I have too much A and I need it to calm down.

I consume non homogenized grass-fed A2 milk - and use the cream to make butter or ice cream or custard. I eat a few pastured egg yolks daily (which are supposed to have a good amount of folate than average). I eat an ataulfo mango daily when I can because it's reported to give 70% folate per serving. Chicken livers are excellent for folate. I eat fresh pineapple and sometimes banana for folate and b6. I eat habanero peppers and some red bell pepper for C and they are low in oxalates. I also eat cooked peeled apples and spaghetti squash and white rice with butter and parmesan cheese. And chives for sulfur (in addition to eggs) which help with oxalates. And cottage cheese. I like to eat steak daily and sometimes pork loin (for Bs) and I will eat shrimp and oysters too. But lately a lot of steak because I don't think shrimp is very high in B6. I was drinking a lot of cocoa with homemade marshmallows (made with gelatin) but I think there are too many problems with cocoa so I've stopped for now. Same with OJ.

Also low folate symptoms are hangnails for me.

I don't mean to monopolize this thread but I hope the info helps.

Also I don't react well to a lot of D because when it increases calcium absorption it possibly lowers calcium levels in the gut needed for binding oxalates which also is why too much D increases histamine for me. And glycine and hydroxyproline can turn into oxalate in sensitive people and I find gelatin which is high in both and any kind of glycine seem to increase histamine and make me feel worse. But cocoa is super high in oxalates and so I'm giving it up for that reason and for the high level of polyphenols that can affect thyroid.