Aesthetics / Muscle / Dieting

[redsun]

They will all live forever and ever. Their children will be flawless. They will never find sweat on their brow, nor will they experience war or pestilence or famine.

So uncontrollable hardships that life can bring that humans have no control over is the same as voluntarily torturing your body with starvation? This world is filled with suffering, therefore we should try to suffer as much as possible? There is literally no sense in what you just wrote. I never said there will not be any hard work, or that there will never hardships that we cannot control, or ever even mentioned living forever? Your head is in the clouds.

 

[baccheion]

Most of Ray Peat's principles in general do in fact work and are sound.

You can in fact eat along many of Rays principles and maintain a lean, athletic muscular body, it just takes some experimentation to figure out what works for you.

In my experience, from a body composition context:

1) refined sugar causes weight gain and health issues, fruit sugar does not (this includes fruit juice/ whole fruit). I think this is a microbial issue from microbes in the intestine getting the refined sugar as opposed to an actual issue with the sugar itself. Fruit comes with polyphenols and flavonoids thats are antimicrobial and inhibit the utilization of the sugars in the juice by bacteria. Also, fructose isnt an issue metabolically as long as it is accompanied by equal glucose. Even in itself I dont think the fructose is harmful. Whats really harmful is when the fructose is ingested alone or in a decent excess of glucose. This allows the fructose to be eaten by microbes and endotoxin as well as other metabolites to be produced. In all of the high fructose feeding studies I have read there are high amounds of endotoxin present after the fructose feeding. The fructose isnt a poison, the endotoxin is tho.

2) saturated fats dont cause weight gain whether thats butter, tallow, cocoa butter, coconut oil. They increase androgens and hormones in general, bolster digestion and stabilize energy. Coconut oil MCT's have very different effects than the longer chain fats in the other sources listed. They should be considered a seperate energy source from fats in general with thier own properties, much like sugar and starch have thier own properties and function differently in the body. The low fat dogma on this forum is absolute bull****, and hurting more people than its helping. On the flip side too much fat in a meal can significantly slow down digestion and create strong feelings of fullness, I have found around 25g/ meal to be the sweet spot personally, with more fat in a meal before bed to hold you through the night.

3) Dairy does in fact cause weight gain if the person does not tolerate it well. I think this is due to the opiate effect of the casein fraction. I have seen dairy wreck a few people, but I have also seen it greatly support people, It is individual, only way to tell is to experiment.

4) Starch from tubers doesnt seem to cause weight gain, in fact it greatly aids in muscle building. Avoiding starch is really only neccesary if there is a gut issue present, Peat specifically states this himself. Persorption is indeed an issue with starch yet boiling the starches eliminated the problem. Eating starches from tubers (yams, sweet potato, white potato) in a meal with fat and protein, and even fruit sugar will greatly eliminate any supposed blood sugar issue.

5) The idea that carbs and fats need to be seperated into different meals is bull**** and unreasonable. It makes eating enough calories difficult and doesnt make that much of a difference. Rather than seperate these components by meals, where you have a meal with only protein and fat and then another meal with only protein and carbs, seperate the macros within a meal. This means in a singular meal, first eat your carb sources (fruit, juice, tubers), then wait 10-15min or so, then eat the protein and fat. The fruit and juice digests extremely fast. The tubers digest fast as well although not like fruit. The meat and fat on the other hand can take some more time, thus allowing the carbs to go first can ease digestion. Also watching portions is helpful. As I said above too much fat in a meal (more than 25g) can make the meal sit for a long time. Too much protein can also make the meal sit a long time. From what I have read and what I have experimented with there is not need for more than 30-40g of protein in a meal, especially if your younger (max .6-.8g of protein a day). The excess protein just gets oxidized and at that point you might as well eat more carbs or fats. Its also difficult to eat excess boiled tubers but much more can be eaten then protein or fats without slowing down digestion. Fruit/ juice burns like high octane fuel, its easy to get 100g of carbs from fruit juice and fruit. 100g of carbs from white potatoes in a meal can definetly be a challenge. Overall a solid meal would include some fruit/ juice and/or some tubers, wait 10-15 mins and then eat the meat (protein; could be eggs, seafood, beef, lean fowl whatever) and fat.

6) Worrying about amino acid ratios is a waste of time, just eat animal protein sources that are low in pufa and that you tolerate well. Make sure to eat enough protein overall.

7) Worry about PUFA is relatively important, 4g/2000kcal seems like a good mark, if you go over a little bit whatever, especially if your saturated fat: polyunsaturated fat ratio is 10:1. I wouldnt worry about MUFA at all, it is what it is. The body is able to actively glucoronidate and excrete PUFA, so 1-2g in a meal, especially with a decent amount of saturated fat is whatever. Overtime the long chain saturated fatty acids will displace the PUFA in tissues, I dont think coconut oil will do this, It burns like sugar, I dont think much is stored.

8) If fruit/ juice, protein sources, tubers and saturated fat sources are giving you an issue you probably have a gut dysbiosis, an infection or a parasite. The human digestive system is geared towards digesting animal protein, fruits, saturated fats and depending on certain peoples backgrounds tubers and dairy. I think as long as a gut issue isnt present tubers would be digestible by most people. Dairy is more hit and miss. Nutrient deficiencies shouldnt be an issue on this diet for the most part as long as a decent variety is eaten, even if dairy is excluded (minus butter).

Eating protein + fats as the first meal and carbs (at least 4 hours apart) as the last does many things. The body is said to become better able to run on both fats and carbs, you gain muscle and lose fat (rather than gain muscle and fat), carbs improve sleep, the coma/dullness is averted during the day, proper food combining is accidentally introduced (reducing digestion/inflammation/putrefaction issues), harder-to-digest foods are consumed earlier in the day, etc.

 

[olive]

Eating protein + fats as the first meal and carbs (at least 4 hours apart) as the last does many things. The body is said to become better able to run on both fats and carbs, you gain muscle and lose fat (rather than gain muscle and fat), carbs improve sleep, the coma/dullness is averted during the day, proper food combining is accidentally introduced (reducing digestion/inflammation/putrefaction issues), harder-to-digest foods are consumed earlier in the day, etc.

I like this approach but I’d switch it around. Carbs in the morning when cortisol and insulin sensitivity is high. Fats and protein in the afternoon to hold you over until the next morning. This also correlates best with our circadian rhythm.

 

[tygertgr]

I like this approach

Your avatar is gayer than AIDS.

 

[baccheion]

I like this approach but I’d switch it around. Carbs in the morning when cortisol and insulin sensitivity is high. Fats and protein in the afternoon to hold you over until the next morning. This also correlates best with our circadian rhythm.

Protein + fat in the morning somewhat continues the overnight fast and avoids a carb-induced stupor. Some say just protein + fat near sleep time leads to insomnia?

Egg breakfast enhances weight loss

 

[Aleeri]

Protein + fat in the morning somewhat continues the overnight fast and avoids a carb-induced stupor. Some say just protein + fat near sleep time leads to insomnia?

Egg breakfast enhances weight loss

Carbs near sleep sure help sleep quality in my experience. Usually, protein/fat meals for dinner gave me issues falling asleep.

This really turned into a fasting thread lol.

I think fasting is not entirely as bad as some here think it is. If you lived a hundred years ago or further back it is very likely you would go for periods without food during your life. Nowadays you can live your entire life without really knowing how it is to be really hungry. I think the body was built to experience some periods of fasting during its lifetime, and it also makes sense that since digestion requires energy (especially for example breaking down protein) then the body would reduce hunger signals during disease to prioritize other systems.

 

[Adrienlcrx]

How are the legumes doing in your experience? @CLASH

 

[Ryan999]

If you're really serious about your physique I would say dial in your macros and keep track of calories. A combination of starch and sugar (starch for the insulin, sugar for the other hormonal effects. IIFYM (if it fits your macros) produces results, I don't see why the "Peat diet" within the confines of certain macro ratios and calories wouldn't be a huge improvement on that idea.

 

[Aleeri]

I increased my training load, already seeing better results. Also more careful about the diet. Losing body fat % but maintaining muscle %, I'm tracking on InBody scanner. Will post 3 months results later with my routine, doing this slowly to avoid slowing metabolism too much.

Sometimes avoiding stress is not what produces a stronger organism. Hans Selye's work is great.

 

[charlie]

Your avatar is gayer than AIDS.

 

[baccheion]

Carbs near sleep sure help sleep quality in my experience. Usually, protein/fat meals for dinner gave me issues falling asleep.

This really turned into a fasting thread lol.

I think fasting is not entirely as bad as some here think it is. If you lived a hundred years ago or further back it is very likely you would go for periods without food during your life. Nowadays you can live your entire life without really knowing how it is to be really hungry. I think the body was built to experience some periods of fasting during its lifetime, and it also makes sense that since digestion requires energy (especially for example breaking down protein) then the body would reduce hunger signals during disease to prioritize other systems.

I don't think anything bad was said about overnight fasts (eg, eating the last meal 4 hours before bed or earlier). Extended fasts may be seen as unwise.

 

[ExCarniv]

I like this approach but I’d switch it around. Carbs in the morning when cortisol and insulin sensitivity is high. Fats and protein in the afternoon to hold you over until the next morning. This also correlates best with our circadian rhythm.

For me is carbs first thing in the morning (OJ+fruit+coffee with milk and sugar/honey) with a bit of gelatin.

And Starches (potatoes/ white rice) with protein at night for better sleep.

 

[baccheion]

For me is carbs first thing in the morning (OJ+fruit+coffee with milk and sugar/honey) with a bit of gelatin.

And Starches (potatoes/ white rice) with protein at night for better sleep.

An absence of protein + fat in the AM is also missing out on the muscle-building window created by an overnight fast. Testosterone was higher among males after even a 12 hour fast (last meal 4 hours before bed and 8 hours of sleep). Adding continued HGH (due to lower insulin), sufficient daily protein, and mTOR activation = muscle synthesis.

On the other hand, I'm slightly confused about which is the proper ordering.

 

[olive]

Protein + fat in the morning somewhat continues the overnight fast and avoids a carb-induced stupor. Some say just protein + fat near sleep time leads to insomnia?

Egg breakfast enhances weight loss

Carb induced stupor is due to poor insulin sensitivity. I eat 800g of carbs before midday without issue. If you feel tired after consuming carbs I suggest you start with increasing muscle mass, healing the liver and adhering to the circadian rhythm.

 

[baccheion]

Carb induced stupor is due to poor insulin sensitivity. I eat 800g of carbs before midday without issue. If you feel tired after consuming carbs I suggest you start with increasing muscle mass, healing the liver and adhering to the circadian rhythm.

That was just one of many reasons.

800 grams? Of what?

 

[CLASH]

Eating protein + fats as the first meal and carbs (at least 4 hours apart) as the last does many things. The body is said to become better able to run on both fats and carbs, you gain muscle and lose fat (rather than gain muscle and fat), carbs improve sleep, the coma/dullness is averted during the day, proper food combining is accidentally introduced (reducing digestion/inflammation/putrefaction issues), harder-to-digest foods are consumed earlier in the day, etc.

I eat all macros at eacb meal as i discussed and I'm lean and muscular (probably at 10-12%, visible 6 pack abs, veins on my arms, calves and some starting to come out on my quads, 6'2" 185lbs, workout 3x per week). I also eat carbs (about 100g of sugar from fruit and juice) first thing in the morning with no problem, they warm me up and give me energy. The only thing that ever really made me fat and gave me poor digestion was cow dairy products, and when i ate 6000 kcal per day with my main carb source being green plantains. I only get tired after a meal when I eat a large amount of grain based starches. Fruit, juice and yams/ sweet potatoes dont make me tired (the latter 3 mentioned just make me full).

How are the legumes doing in your experience? @CLASH

I dont eat any legumes amigo. Overall compared to fruit, tubers, animal proteins and saturated fats (and dairy if its well tolerated) I think theyre a poor food choice. For me personally I have something going on in my colon that is giving me trouble with starches in general so I've been staying away from most starchy foods most of the time.

 

[CLASH]

Excellent post @CLASH

I like your frankness

Appreciate it man. Tone is frank but I did make sure to preface it with "in my experience" :)

 

[ExCarniv]

I eat all macros at eacb meal as i discussed and I'm lean and muscular (probably at 10-12%, visible 6 pack abs, veins on my arms, calves and some starting to come out on my quads, 6'2" 185lbs, workout 3x per week). I also eat carbs (about 100g of sugar from fruit and juice) first thing in the morning with no problem, they warm me up and give me energy. The only thing that ever really made me fat and gave me poor digestion was cow dairy products, and when i ate 6000 kcal per day with my main carb source being green plantains. I only get tired after a meal when I eat a large amount of grain based starches. Fruit, juice and yams/ sweet potatoes dont make me tired (the latter 3 mentioned just make me full).



I dont eat any legumes amigo. Overall compared to fruit, tubers, animal proteins and saturated fats (and dairy if its well tolerated) I think theyre a poor food choice. For me personally I have something going on in my colon that is giving me trouble with starches in general so I've been staying away from most starchy foods most of the time.

I like your approach to all this Peat thing, what do you think about white rice? I often use it to bulk calories because fresh fruit ripe good quality fruit is hard to get here.

 

[CLASH]

@ExCarniv
As long as it digest well for you I think its a good source of carbs. The only downside is the lower amount of nutrients in comparison to tubers, fruit and juice. Overall, its a great food to put on some muscle, as long as no digestive issues are present and enough nutrients are coming in. Boiled starches are generally best.

 

[olive]

That was just one of many reasons.

800 grams? Of what?

Purple sweet potato mostly. Then a bit of buckwheat, kiwi fruit, blueberries, pomegranate juice, cranberry juice, coconut water, carrots, tomato purée/paste, green beans, spinach, kale, whatever on-sale veg really.

Like I mentioned the circadian rhythm dictates carbohydrates should be consumed in the morning. That’s when cortisol is the highest and we have the best insulin response. It also puts a halt on catabolism occurring due to the overnight fast.