Aesthetics / Muscle / Dieting

[redsun]

A lot of people report breaking out of extreme depression by a couple weeks of fasting. There is some convincing literature suggesting it might be a tool against cancer ("anti-peat" I know). Religious traditions that have lasted thousands of years incorporate fasting.

I don't see what the harm is in taking some vacation and going five days without eating and seeing what happens. No reason not to try it.

Keyword religion... Religion popularized fasting. A natural human would never voluntarily fast, our instincts tell us to eat everyday. Eat when your hungry, don't when you aren't. Fighting your instincts to eat is denying the nutrition your body is asking for to maintain health. Fasting will make you insulin resistant, increase your inclination towards obesity and other health problems because of how stressful it is to the body leading to high stress hormones cortisol and estrogen as well as disrupting sex hormone production which is key to long term health.

I would say you're dramatically overestimating how stressful fasting over a leisured five days is. If you go for a couple days without eating (knowing that you have nothing pressing to do) parts of your neo-cortex start to shut down and you can take a break from thinking and worrying. It's very relaxing. You can't think. You stare at the ceiling and perceive things in a more basic way. Orwell in "down and out" wrote about this phenomenon where being hungry on the street was actually lower stress in his experience than being middle class in a lot of ways.

No the detriment of fasting is not overestimated, only religious brainwashing can make humans voluntarily starve and think its good. If you need fasting to forcibly turn off parts of your brain so you can "relax" that indicates a serious mental issue that can be attributed to poor diet or stressful lifestyle or both. People will get relief from depression not because it actually went away but its because your body will turn off your emotions and all the emotional baggage you carry won't matter because your body says "your starving no time to be depressed about stupid ***t we are going to die go find food".

Thymus Shmiamus. If it degenerates from a few days of hunger then it obviously isn't that important. I trust three thousand year old traditions and ceremonies over some nerd with pubmed.

You can't be this stupid, can you? Your body will be forced to suppress your immunity and likewise destroy the thymus which is integral in immunity just to keep your dumbass alive because you voluntarily starve yourself. Go read up on some studies that have been posted about fasting on here and stop being convinced by nutty religions to starve yourself. Starvation and bad diet is a great way to make obedient slaves that believe everything their religion tells them too.

I didnt even mention the severe implications of denying your own hunger signals. It creates a serious disconnect between the conscious mind and the body and causes mental disorders.

I recall it was my dabbling into fasting that led to my weight gain when I used to be super skinny beforehand no matter what and how much I ate. Insulin resistance in action.

 

[tygertgr]

A natural human would never voluntarily fast

Speak for yourself.

Your body will be forced to suppress your immunity and likewise destroy the thymus which is integral in immunity just to keep your dumbass alive

Obviously insane. To be human involves having experienced hunger. You would not exist if our bodies were incapable of going without for some days. We're a tougher machine than that. We're not yeast in a vat.

 

[lampofred]

I would say you're dramatically overestimating how stressful fasting over a leisured five days is. If you go for a couple days without eating (knowing that you have nothing pressing to do) parts of your neo-cortex start to shut down and you can take a break from thinking and worrying. It's very relaxing. You can't think. You stare at the ceiling and perceive things in a more basic way. Orwell in "down and out" wrote about this phenomenon where being hungry on the street was actually lower stress in his experience than being middle class in a lot of ways.

Thymus Shmiamus. If it degenerates from a few days of hunger then it obviously isn't that important. I trust three thousand year old traditions and ceremonies over some nerd with pubmed.

I also think there's clearly something to the autophagy arguments. Occasionally ramping up the systems that break down tissues is better than never doing it.

I think the main benefit of fasting lies in reducing endotoxin and not in the reduced consumption of food. If you look at the symptoms of "impurity" or "sin" they largely have to do with constipation, nitric oxide, & high endotoxin burden.

I have heard of a stereotype that middle class people tend to be more constipated than lower class and upper class people, maybe due to anxiety over social status that lower class and upper class people don't have (I say this as a middle class person who suffers from constipation myself).

The thymus is extremely important, I think a reason why celibacy is so extolled in religions is that it is believed that continence causes regeneration of the thymus.

 

[postman]

Here’s the thing. There are Ray Peat diet principles, and then there are Ray Peat Forum diet principles. It’s tricky.

When you break down what Peat says, it’s actually all a very mainstream. There’s nothing revolutionary, extreme or radical about any of his theories. They are as mainstream as they could be, in that they are very sensible.

But as is the norm, sensible is boring, and people are used being offered silver bullet diets, and so thats what many try to turn Peat’s diet into as well.

If 200 grams of sugar is optimal, as Peat suggests, then 600 grams must be three times as good. If a teaspoon of coconut oil is good for you, three table spoons will turn you into a superman. If carbs are good, then table sugar must be superfuel. And so on.

I would easily say that two thirds of what’s often passed off as Ray Peat diet is advice litteraly made up by this forum, and not coming from Peat himself.

Ray Peat is not your personal trainer. You have to figure out what will work for you. I think there are quite a few people here with great physique.

Fasting is NOT the only way to lose weight. That’s the silver bullet crazy talk and utter nonsense.

I say this as someone who’s been Peating for over 4 years, who had balooned up, and then went back down to where I want to be. Once I realized all of the above.

Once you delve into Peat, it’s very hard to go elsewhere because the guy just makes sense. But the guy doesn’t give you a blueprint for living your life. Peat is always in the back of my head, but I had to find myself what works for me.

Nonsense. Some people here really cannot handle that Ray Peat could ever be wrong or contradictory about anything so you invent all these ideas like "Ray Peat never recommended anything" "Ray Peat never recommended 2 quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice" "Instead of using the forum you should consult a Ray Peat inspired nutritionist but also none of them have anything to do with Ray's own advice because he never gave any".

I can't even comprehend the level of delusion it takes to think that Ray Peat is actually mainstream and offers mainstream advice.

 

[redsun]

Speak for yourself.

If you really think without religion that you would voluntarily fast of your own free will, you are already extremely disconnected with yourself.

Obviously insane. To be human involves having experienced hunger. You would not exist if our bodies were incapable of going without for some days. We're a tougher machine than that. We're not yeast in a vat.

The stress caused by being forcibly starved due to famine versus voluntary starvation by denying your own body when there is food available is very different, the later being unimaginably worse and is indicative of mental illness. Both are bad regardless. Just because humans can starve for days on end doesn't mean we should. It has long-term implications in hormonal status, stress resilence, emotional health, and physical health among other things. This is aggravated by the fact that basically everyone's fat tissues are saturated with damaging PUFAs which will literally destroy the bodily tissues that burn it for energy. Fasting ages ago in a world without vegetable oil and PUFA consumption is still very bad, but its even worse nowadays with everyone being filled with PUFA.

 

[postman]

If you really think without religion that you would voluntarily fast of your own free will, you are already extremely disconnected with yourself.



The stress caused by being forcibly starved due to famine versus voluntary starvation by denying your own body when there is food available is very different, the later being unimaginably worse and is indicative of mental illness. Both are bad regardless. Just because humans can starve for days on end doesn't mean we should. It has long-term implications in hormonal status, stress resilence, emotional health, and physical health among other things. This is aggravated by the fact that basically everyone's fat tissues are saturated with damaging PUFAs which will literally destroy the bodily tissues that burn it for energy. Fasting ages ago in a world without vegetable oil and PUFA consumption is still very bad, but its even worse nowadays with everyone being filled with PUFA.

Yes of course. An animal would never voluntarily fast, especially not an unhealthy, sick, animal. Only those crazed catholic cats fast.

 

[redsun]

Yes of course. An animal would never voluntarily fast, especially not an unhealthy, sick, animal. Only those crazed catholic cats fast.

Your body making you not want to eat when you are sick isn't exactly voluntary is it? That's your body trying to get you to stop eating which is very different. Animals do it, and so do humans, high fevers are a good example of where you have no appetite for food, as its a way of preventing you from eating so it can divert blood away from digestion to fight pathogens. That last part made me chuckle though so I'll give you that.

 

[tygertgr]

Yes of course. An animal would never voluntarily fast, especially not an unhealthy, sick, animal. Only those crazed catholic cats fast.

Then Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, where for forty days He was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He was hungry.

You can be an atheist and understand this passage. It helps to know that "40 days" is lost in translation and just meant "more than a few days".

I read a Crazy Horse biography detailing exactly the same sorts of traditions. Sioux would just decide it was time for a bit of a think and a reset, and go off and not eat while alone for a good long while.

 

[baccheion]

Separate consumption of protein + fat from carbs by at least 4 hours. Break fast with only protein + fat. Eat carbs closer to bedtime than when waking up.

How a fast is broken is important, even if just an overnight fast.

 

[tygertgr]

I think a reason why celibacy is so extolled in religions is that it is believed that continence causes regeneration of the thymus.

Holy LOL. I'll assume your healing crystal explained this to you.

I think the main benefit of fasting lies in reducing endotoxin and not in the reduced consumption of food.

I think the discussion is sailing over your head. I am talking about deliberately scheduling a week to not eat, as part of trying to break out of bad patterns. Of going off alone. People and animals have done this forever. If your refutation is "endotoxin" then maybe you just don't get it.

 

[redsun]

I think the discussion is sailing over your head. I am talking about deliberately scheduling a week to not eat, as part of trying to break out of bad patterns. Of going off alone. People and animals have done this forever. If your refutation is "endotoxin" then maybe you just don't get it.

Endotoxin is incredibly good at increasing serotonin and estrogen which will make you feel bad and disrupt your health. Not eating food means you eliminate foods you don't tolerate whether you know it or not and therefore you decrease endotoxin considerably when fasting, this is why people can think there is benefit to it. Why is that so hard to understand for you to the point where you suggest lampofred is the one out of his depth when it is actually you that is?

Fasting decreasing endotoxin is a known fact around here and is primarily responsible for subjective "benefits" from fasting.

 

[lampofred]

Holy LOL. I'll assume your healing crystal explained this to you.

Anything that lowers prolactin in the long-run will regenerate the thymus. Long term abstinence pretty strongly lowers prolactin, especially when you are older and your metabolism has slowed. You're free to believe me or not, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

I think the discussion is sailing over your head. I am talking about deliberately scheduling a week to not eat, as part of trying to break out of bad patterns. Of going off alone. People and animals have done this forever. If your refutation is "endotoxin" then maybe you just don't get it.

And I'm saying that if you need "a break from food" then you're probably not fully digesting what you're eating. Serotonin excess due to endotoxin/poor digestion is what is making you need that break in the first place. If you are properly digesting food then after you eat you will feel light, alert, and energized, and going for a long time without food won't "clear your mind" or "give you a reset", it will just weaken you. If you feel the need to periodically fast for a week and "go off alone" then it's probably better in the long-run to fix your diet and environment to better suit your needs than to live a toxic lifestyle and periodically do week-long "resets".

 

[tygertgr]

Anything that lowers prolactin in the long-run will regenerate the thymus. Long term abstinence pretty strongly lowers prolactin, especially when you are older and your metabolism has slowed.

Yes, it's a pubmed issued healing crystal. The thymus decays because we are not meant to live forever, but for a brief period. The thymus learns the relevant immunological threats in childhood and then returns its energy for the purpose of people busy raising the next generation. The thymus is not for neurotic hypochondriacs terrified of death, it is for children.

If you feel the need to periodically fast for a week and "go off alone" then it's probably better in the long-run to fix your diet and environment to better suit your needs than to live a toxic lifestyle and periodically do week-long "resets".

Your industrialized detachment from the human tradition is impressive. Be a consumer-cell in a vat: Bathe in glucose and industrial purified protein products for years on end doing nothing difficult. (Obviously, you'll live forever if you ensure USP quality on the glucose and protein products.) This is clearly the point of it all.

Being a functioning member of human society in a dynamic ecology and economy with energy shortages? Understanding mortality? Maybe that's more complicated.

 

[CLASH]

Most of Ray Peat's principles in general do in fact work and are sound.

You can in fact eat along many of Rays principles and maintain a lean, athletic muscular body, it just takes some experimentation to figure out what works for you.

In my experience, from a body composition context:

1) refined sugar causes weight gain and health issues, fruit sugar does not (this includes fruit juice/ whole fruit). I think this is a microbial issue from microbes in the intestine getting the refined sugar as opposed to an actual issue with the sugar itself. Fruit comes with polyphenols and flavonoids thats are antimicrobial and inhibit the utilization of the sugars in the juice by bacteria. Also, fructose isnt an issue metabolically as long as it is accompanied by equal glucose. Even in itself I dont think the fructose is harmful. Whats really harmful is when the fructose is ingested alone or in a decent excess of glucose. This allows the fructose to be eaten by microbes and endotoxin as well as other metabolites to be produced. In all of the high fructose feeding studies I have read there are high amounds of endotoxin present after the fructose feeding. The fructose isnt a poison, the endotoxin is tho.

2) saturated fats dont cause weight gain whether thats butter, tallow, cocoa butter, coconut oil. They increase androgens and hormones in general, bolster digestion and stabilize energy. Coconut oil MCT's have very different effects than the longer chain fats in the other sources listed. They should be considered a seperate energy source from fats in general with thier own properties, much like sugar and starch have thier own properties and function differently in the body. The low fat dogma on this forum is absolute bull****, and hurting more people than its helping. On the flip side too much fat in a meal can significantly slow down digestion and create strong feelings of fullness, I have found around 25g/ meal to be the sweet spot personally, with more fat in a meal before bed to hold you through the night.

3) Dairy does in fact cause weight gain if the person does not tolerate it well. I think this is due to the opiate effect of the casein fraction. I have seen dairy wreck a few people, but I have also seen it greatly support people, It is individual, only way to tell is to experiment.

4) Starch from tubers doesnt seem to cause weight gain, in fact it greatly aids in muscle building. Avoiding starch is really only neccesary if there is a gut issue present, Peat specifically states this himself. Persorption is indeed an issue with starch yet boiling the starches eliminated the problem. Eating starches from tubers (yams, sweet potato, white potato) in a meal with fat and protein, and even fruit sugar will greatly eliminate any supposed blood sugar issue.

5) The idea that carbs and fats need to be seperated into different meals is bull**** and unreasonable. It makes eating enough calories difficult and doesnt make that much of a difference. Rather than seperate these components by meals, where you have a meal with only protein and fat and then another meal with only protein and carbs, seperate the macros within a meal. This means in a singular meal, first eat your carb sources (fruit, juice, tubers), then wait 10-15min or so, then eat the protein and fat. The fruit and juice digests extremely fast. The tubers digest fast as well although not like fruit. The meat and fat on the other hand can take some more time, thus allowing the carbs to go first can ease digestion. Also watching portions is helpful. As I said above too much fat in a meal (more than 25g) can make the meal sit for a long time. Too much protein can also make the meal sit a long time. From what I have read and what I have experimented with there is not need for more than 30-40g of protein in a meal, especially if your younger (max .6-.8g of protein a day). The excess protein just gets oxidized and at that point you might as well eat more carbs or fats. Its also difficult to eat excess boiled tubers but much more can be eaten then protein or fats without slowing down digestion. Fruit/ juice burns like high octane fuel, its easy to get 100g of carbs from fruit juice and fruit. 100g of carbs from white potatoes in a meal can definetly be a challenge. Overall a solid meal would include some fruit/ juice and/or some tubers, wait 10-15 mins and then eat the meat (protein; could be eggs, seafood, beef, lean fowl whatever) and fat.

6) Worrying about amino acid ratios is a waste of time, just eat animal protein sources that are low in pufa and that you tolerate well. Make sure to eat enough protein overall.

7) Worry about PUFA is relatively important, 4g/2000kcal seems like a good mark, if you go over a little bit whatever, especially if your saturated fat: polyunsaturated fat ratio is 10:1. I wouldnt worry about MUFA at all, it is what it is. The body is able to actively glucoronidate and excrete PUFA, so 1-2g in a meal, especially with a decent amount of saturated fat is whatever. Overtime the long chain saturated fatty acids will displace the PUFA in tissues, I dont think coconut oil will do this, It burns like sugar, I dont think much is stored.

8) If fruit/ juice, protein sources, tubers and saturated fat sources are giving you an issue you probably have a gut dysbiosis, an infection or a parasite. The human digestive system is geared towards digesting animal protein, fruits, saturated fats and depending on certain peoples backgrounds tubers and dairy. I think as long as a gut issue isnt present tubers would be digestible by most people. Dairy is more hit and miss. Nutrient deficiencies shouldnt be an issue on this diet for the most part as long as a decent variety is eaten, even if dairy is excluded (minus butter).

 

[Runenight201]

I don't know about extended 5 day fasts, but there certainly is benefit in allowing the digestion to rest for a couple hours or more until everything has "reset" and there is a strong and clear hunger signal. My thinking is always the clearest right in between the moments of a clear hunger signal and having no food in my stomach. Part of the reason why I think fasting was so extolled is that the grain heavy diets of antiquity would result in the inability to truly focus on spiritual pursuits and thus impair any meaningful self-progress. What's more, is that in these moments of clarity, one can get a glimpse of what it's like to be calm, clear headed, focused, etc.... and not the usual ADD, psychotic, OCD, inflamed, etc.... states that most modern people experience (and myself...for far too long....). Many times it takes a sort of fast to be able to experience such a state, but once experienced enough times and imprinted in memory, the diet can be altered to maintain that state without the need to fast. However, without using fasting as a tool, one could never meaningfully learn in that arena.

So I think fasting has it's time and place, more so in the initial stages of understanding self, and then can be eliminated or used much less frequently once one deeply understands oneself.

 

[Inaut]

Excellent post @CLASH

I like your frankness

 

[lampofred]

Yes, it's a pubmed issued healing crystal. The thymus decays because we are not meant to live forever, but for a brief period. The thymus learns the relevant immunological threats in childhood and then returns its energy for the purpose of people busy raising the next generation. The thymus is not for neurotic hypochondriacs terrified of death, it is for children.



Your industrialized detachment from the human tradition is impressive. Be a consumer-cell in a vat: Bathe in glucose and industrial purified protein products for years on end doing nothing difficult. (Obviously, you'll live forever if you ensure USP quality on the glucose and protein products.) This is clearly the point of it all.

Being a functioning member of human society in a dynamic ecology and economy with energy shortages? Understanding mortality? Maybe that's more complicated.

This started with you saying week-long fasting is healthy and with me saying it is not healthy because it destroys the thymus and because feeling the need to fast is a symptom of poor digestion. And it is now at the point that you are saying you don't care if the thymus gets destroyed and that is not practical to always eat well-digested foods. Ok. Fair enough. There's really nowhere further to go from here.

Last thing I will say is that RP stated several times that adults are supposed to have thymus glands, and I don't think it would be that impractical of an endeavor to figure which foods don't digest well for you and to remove those from your diet. But it seems like you have some innate belief that the life is meant to be short and difficult & that if it's not, then you're not living right, maybe due to tough times in the past or something, I don't know. I think there is a big difference between working hard & long hours at a job you enjoy, which almost everyone agrees is enriching, versus toiling as a result of purposefully depriving yourself because of an ideological belief that life is meant to be harsh, as if you were some serf in the Middle Ages.

 

[tygertgr]

belief that the life is meant to be short and difficult & that if it's not, then you're not living right

It is what it is. It's not meant "to be" but it's clear to me that a lot of people in this sector need a wake up call.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

[redsun]

It is what it is. It's not meant "to be" but it's clear to me that a lot of people in this sector need a wake up call.

No one is going to adopt your religion of voluntary starvation. Let's be honest, that's exactly what you mean when you say we need a "wake up call". Hardship, starvation, religious delusion, schizophrenia all in one. I'll have to pass up on that offer. Aren't there a bunch of voluntary starvation forums all over the internet where you can converse with your own kind?

You are literally coming on a forum filled with ex-fasters/heavy exercisers/orthorexics/carnivores and other people from their previous delusion-based lifestyles. They already converted and then denounced crappy diets/lifestyles awhile ago. Get with the program, you are behind the times, been there done that. You are still asleep and you don't even know it.

 

[tygertgr]

a forum filled with [...]. They already converted and then denounced crappy diets/lifestyles awhile ago. Get with the program

They will all live forever and ever. Their children will be flawless. They will never find sweat on their brow, nor will they experience war or pestilence or famine.