11-keto DHT - Adrenosterone Derivative For Lab/R&D Use

[haidut]

So..........what does testosterone supplementation do ?

Why don't they just take DHT ?

What's the difference between DHT supplementation and testosterone supplementation ?

In his latest newsletter Ray actually mentions using DHT as treatment for Parkinson disease given that T suplementation was very helpful but T increasingly converts to E2 with age and DHT does not (and can actually lower all estrogens).
"...Treatment with dihydrotestosterone (which can't be converted to estrogen) might be more effective than with ordinary testosterone, considering the increased activity of aromatase with age, stress, and inflammation, and the probable role of estrogen in the excitatory degenerative process."

I think T is considered more muscle anabolic than DHT but I don't know if any studies have looked at actual dry muscle weight increase, so most of the anabolic effects of T can be simply water weight gain as described in the progesterone-anabolism thread below.
The Anabolic Effects Of Progesterone

So, DHT may be a better androgen supplement option for many males especially when combined with a little DHEA / pregnenolone to avoid driving estrogen too low. In fact, this is what the Pansterone / androsterone combo should be able to approximate legally for those who cannot get DHT through their doctor.

 

[Dante]

In his latest newsletter Ray actually mentions using DHT as treatment for Parkinson disease given that T suplementation was very helpful but T increasingly converts to E2 with age and DHT does not (and can actually lower all estrogens).
"...Treatment with dihydrotestosterone (which can't be converted to estrogen) might be more effective than with ordinary testosterone, considering the increased activity of aromatase with age, stress, and inflammation, and the probable role of estrogen in the excitatory degenerative process."

I think T is considered more muscle anabolic than DHT but I don't know if any studies have looked at actual dry muscle weight increase, so most of the anabolic effects of T can be simply water weight gain as described in the progesterone-anabolism thread below.
The Anabolic Effects Of Progesterone

So, DHT may be a better androgen supplement option for many males especially when combined with a little DHEA / pregnenolone to avoid driving estrogen too low. In fact, this is what the Pansterone / androsterone combo should be able to approximate legally for those who cannot get DHT through their doctor.

He also mentioned melatonin(low-dose) in a postive way (insecticide induced parkinson's ) :) . Plus, I didn't know estrogen slows the removal of dopamine from brain , wouldn't that explain paradoxically lower motivation and OCD like symptoms from driving E2 too low ?

 

[ecstatichamster]

first time I heard that dopamine converts into a toxic metabolite. Wow.

 

[haidut]

He also mentioned melatonin(low-dose) in a postive way (insecticide induced parkinson's ) :) . Plus, I didn't know estrogen slows the removal of dopamine from brain , wouldn't that explain paradoxically lower motivation and OCD like symptoms from driving E2 too low ?

Yeah, I think lower estrogen would increase dopamine turnover and if dopamine synthesis cannot keep up it could lead to the OCD symptoms. But I would not try to raise estrogen as a way to keep dopamine high I'd rather make sure protein intake is adequate as well as light exposure, and thyroid works well as this is what drives dopamine synthesis.
If melatonin is low for whatever reason, I can see how adding some exogenously helps the condition.

 

[TeslaFan]

first time I heard that dopamine converts into a toxic metabolite. Wow.

Both L-DOPA and Dopamine can break down into toxic metabolites. Dopamine is best broken down by MAO-A and COMT. If broken down by MAO-B it creates Reactive Oxygen Species, free radicals. So elevating dopamine can be a double-edged sword for some people.

 

[Koveras]

Yeah, I think lower estrogen would increase dopamine turnover and if dopamine synthesis cannot keep up it could lead to the OCD symptoms. But I would not try to raise estrogen as a way to keep dopamine high :) I'd rather make sure protein intake is adequate as well as light exposure, and thyroid works well as this is what drives dopamine synthesis.
If melatonin is low for whatever reason, I can see how adding some exogenously helps the condition.

If estrogen slows dopamine turnover as well as increases serotonin - I guess that implies it has an impact on MAO

Indeed

"In JAMA Psychiatry, Rekkas et al6 report a study that used carbon 11–labeled harmine positron emission tomography to determine the effects of menopause status and fluctuating estradiol levels on monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) binding (total distribution volume [VT]). In addition to modulating serotonin synthesis via regulation of tryptophan hydroxylase type 2 gene expression, increasing serotonin 2A receptor binding, and interfering with extracellular serotonin clearance, estradiol diminishes serotonin catabolism by reducing MAO-A levels, messenger RNA expression levels, and enzyme activity.5"

Estradiol modulation of monoamine metabolism: one possible mechanism underlying sex differences in risk for depression and dementia. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[haidut]

If estrogen slows dopamine turnover as well as increases serotonin - I guess that implies it has an impact on MAO

Indeed

"In JAMA Psychiatry, Rekkas et al6 report a study that used carbon 11–labeled harmine positron emission tomography to determine the effects of menopause status and fluctuating estradiol levels on monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) binding (total distribution volume [VT]). In addition to modulating serotonin synthesis via regulation of tryptophan hydroxylase type 2 gene expression, increasing serotonin 2A receptor binding, and interfering with extracellular serotonin clearance, estradiol diminishes serotonin catabolism by reducing MAO-A levels, messenger RNA expression levels, and enzyme activity.5"

Estradiol modulation of monoamine metabolism: one possible mechanism underlying sex differences in risk for depression and dementia. - PubMed - NCBI

It's better to inhibit MAO-B than MAO-A as the A subtype of the enzyme has much more impact on serotonin than dopamine. So, if estrogen is MAO-A inhibitor then it is much more likely to cause a serotonin syndrome (which has been shown to be capable of) than a dopamine/adrenaline storm. The MAO-B inhibitor drugs have shown promise in many neurodegenerative conditions, while MAO-A inhibitors are largely ineffective or often dangerous. A good example of benefits of MAO-B inhibition is selegiline.
Selegiline - Wikipedia

 

[japanesedude]

I couldn't found 11ketoDHT on Idealab.
Is it sold out?

 

[opethfeldt]

I have an interesting question. Now, obviously, this ketosteroid binds to the same receptor as DHT. That much I get. However, does the body "see" 11-Keto DHT as regular DHT and therefore cause the usual positive feedback loop to occur? I'm curious if this could be used to permanently upregulate DHT production after a given amount of time without the need to continue administration.

 

[sladerunner69]

Yes I believe the dht encountered some legal difficulties

 

[haidut]

I have an interesting question. Now, obviously, this ketosteroid binds to the same receptor as DHT. That much I get. However, does the body "see" 11-Keto DHT as regular DHT and therefore cause the usual positive feedback loop to occur? I'm curious if this could be used to permanently upregulate DHT production after a given amount of time without the need to continue administration.

The studies done so far have been in vitro and it does seem to have the same effects as DHT. In fish, where 11-keto T and 11-keto DHT are the primary androgens, the 11-keto DHT does seem to have a positive feedback effect on its own synthesis.

 

[Wagner83]

Vitamin K2 (MK-7)
Taurine Analog Reverses Alzheimer Disease

Here you wrote about half life of compounds being a possible indicator of safety and how eager the tissues are to use it. How do you decide when longer half life means more toxicity?
Last but not least, is the presence of 11-keto-dht, which seems quite similar to dht, a clue we indeed all come from the sea?

 

[haidut]

Vitamin K2 (MK-7)
Taurine Analog Reverses Alzheimer Disease

Here you wrote about half life of compounds being a possible indicator of safety and how eager the tissues are to use it. How do you decide when longer half life means more toxicity?
Last but not least, is the presence of 11-keto-dht, which seems quite similar to dht, a clue we indeed all come from the sea?

I think 11-keto DHT has a much longer half life in humans simply because it is not our primary androgen and there are very few pathways to metabolize it. So, using a higher dose probably saturated a metabolizing enzyme and results in the longer half-life. In contrast, DHT can go into at least 3-4 different steroids down the pathways (androstanedione, androstanediol, androsterone, androsterone sulfate, etc) and they are all intercovertible back into DHT. So, DHT has "reservoirs" to go into for longer term storage, while 11-keto DHT does not. If we were to take into account changes in "reservoirs" levels after DHT administration then the half life of DHT + its resevoirs will probably be similar to the one for 11-keto DHT.
As far as the sea connection - it seems that aquatic life uses more of the ketosteroids, so maybe it is because they provide some oxidizing power in an oxygen-poor environment and as the animals evolved to live on land we started using less keto-rich steroids. But I think there is little doubt we came from the sea, most sea creatures are very ancient and currently still possess and use primordial features that humans carry as non-functioning remnants.

 

[Wagner83]

I think 11-keto DHT has a much longer half life in humans simply because it is not our primary androgen and there are very few pathways to metabolize it. So, using a higher dose probably saturated a metabolizing enzyme and results in the longer half-life. In contrast, DHT can go into at least 3-4 different steroids down the pathways (androstanedione, androstanediol, androsterone, androsterone sulfate, etc) and they are all intercovertible back into DHT. So, DHT has "reservoirs" to go into for longer term storage, while 11-keto DHT does not. If we were to take into account changes in "reservoirs" levels after DHT administration then the half life of DHT + its resevoirs will probably be similar to the one for 11-keto DHT.
As far as the sea connection - it seems that aquatic life uses more of the ketosteroids, so maybe it is because they provide some oxidizing power in an oxygen-poor environment and as the animals evolved to live on land we started using less keto-rich steroids. But I think there is little doubt we came from the sea, most sea creatures are very ancient and currently still possess and use primordial features that humans carry as non-functioning remnants.

Thanks.

 

[BeLiKeWater]

Please can anybody with a rat suffering with pfs if this compound has been having good effecta on the rat?

Thank you

 

[Jsaute21]

Yes I believe the dht encountered some legal difficulties

Is this product still available for purchase? Can't find it.

 

[Lucenzo01]

Just letting you know that this works, and it works way better than DHT. Seeing subtle changes in people around me, guys being more submissive and girls a lot more flirting. Maybe placebo, just my third day on it. Taking 5 drops/day at the moment.

 

[Lucenzo01]

I read a study where they gave DHT to old people and they improved in every blood parameter and kept the benefits when they stopped taking it. Exogenous hormones from our moms are really important and it's sad but the health of our moms could not be the best when we where growing inside them...so maybe exogenous hormones are the answer for hard-cases. I even read one paper saying that the gender of the child is determined by the amount of DHT of the mom.

 

[Wagner83]

I read a study where they gave DHT to old people and they improved in every blood parameter and kept the benefits when they stopped taking it. Exogenous hormones from our moms are really important and it's sad but the health of our moms could not be the best when we where growing inside them...so maybe exogenous hormones are the answer for hard-cases. I even read one paper saying that the gender of the child is determined by the amount of DHT of the mom.

Do you mind sharing both of those papers? Especially the first one.

 

[japanesedude]

Just letting you know that this works, and it works way better than DHT. Seeing subtle changes in people around me, guys being more submissive and girls a lot more flirting. Maybe placebo, just my third day on it. Taking 5 drops/day at the moment.

Can you tell me the dose?
and Did you noticed any difference with Androsterone?