11-Ketotestosterone main driver of malign prostate cancer

LeeLemonoil

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Has Peat ever spoken about these 11-oxyandrogens? No knowledge of our precious androgens and steroid metabolism can be considered complete without factoring these in.
Especially the occurence of 11-Ketotest in so called castration resistant PC is interesting.






Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is regarded as the most potent natural androgen and is implicated in the development and progression of castration resistant prostate cancer (CRPC). Under castrate conditions, DHT is produced from the metabolism of the adrenal androgen precursors, DHEA and androstenedione. Recent studies have shown that the adrenal steroid 11β-hydroxyandrostenedione (11OHA4) serves as the precursor to the androgens 11-ketotestosterone (11KT) and 11-ketodihydrotestosterone (11KDHT). In this study we comprehensively assess the androgenic activity of 11KT and 11KDHT. This is the first study, to our knowledge, to show that 11KT and 11KDHT, like T and DHT, are potent and efficacious agonists of the human androgen receptor (AR) and induced both the expression of representative AR-regulated genes as well as cellular proliferation in the androgen dependent prostate cancer cell lines, LNCaP and VCaP. Proteomic analysis revealed that 11KDHT regulated the expression of more AR-regulated proteins than DHT in VCaP cells, while in vitro conversion assays showed that 11KT and 11KDHT are metabolized at a significantly lower rate in both LNCaP and VCaP cells when compared to T and DHT, respectively. Our findings show that 11KT and 11KDHT are bona fide androgens capable of inducing androgen-dependant gene expression and cell growth, and that these steroids have the potential to remain active longer than T and DHT due to the decreased rate at which they are metabolised. Collectively, our data demonstrates that 11KT and 11KDHT likely play a vital, but overlooked, role in the development and progression of CRPC.
 

rei

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They might be the ultimate prostate cancer cures if they are as effective in the beenficial aspects as DHT? Search Results for “dht cancer” – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

11KT might be especially interesting if it is not an estrogen precursor. Anyone know about this? non-aromatizable testosterone would be much better suited for female cancer treatment than dht, and maybe even in men present less side/unwanted effects.
 
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ddjd

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**** ive been supplementing 11-Ketotestosterone a few times a week for over a year now.

i thought if anything it should have an overall anti cancer effect - lowering estrogen/ cortisol...

getting very worried

this is the product

 
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LeeLemonoil

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They might be the ultimate prostate cancer cures if they are as effective in the beenficial aspects as DHT? Search Results for “dht cancer” – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

11KT might be especially interesting if it is not an estrogen precursor. Anyone know about this? non-aromatizable testosterone would be much better suited for female cancer treatment than dht, and maybe even in men present less side/unwanted effects.


I disagree with that. If the were protective then also in the absence of DHT. The studies linked up show clearly that they drive malign proliferation.

Now I know the dogma here that DHT is protective and even „allegedly“ cures prostate cancer. That’s not correct though in its reductionist entirety.
I agree that it is outright stupid to ablate DHT in benign hyperplasia - that drives revamping towards malignicy.
But increased DHT already is a protective mechanism against cancer in dysfunctional tissue. It’s better than cancer, it’s second best to more healthy homeostasis.
If you supplement or injecti 11–Keto while having PC, benign or malign, it will hurt you. In benign case it’s unknown how it would affect protective DHT.
In malign case it will kill you
 

Scenes

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I disagree with that. If the were protective then also in the absence of DHT. The studies linked up show clearly that they drive malign proliferation.

Now I know the dogma here that DHT is protective and even „allegedly“ cures prostate cancer. That’s not correct though in its reductionist entirety.
I agree that it is outright stupid to ablate DHT in benign hyperplasia - that drives revamping towards malignicy.
But increased DHT already is a protective mechanism against cancer in dysfunctional tissue. It’s better than cancer, it’s second best to more healthy homeostasis.
If you supplement or injecti 11–Keto while having PC, benign or malign, it will hurt you. In benign case it’s unknown how it would affect protective DHT.
In malign case it will kill you
They seem to start from the premise that DHT causes prostate cancer, then their study finds that 11KDHT is similar but longer lasting (which @haidut has said many times), then they conclude it must also cause prostate cancer...
 

Mauritio

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**** ive been supplementing 11-Ketotestosterone a few times a week for over a year now.

i thought if anything it should have an overall anti cancer effect - lowering estrogen/ cortisol...

getting very worried

this is the product

What's you experience with it like?
 

LeeLemonoil

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They seem to start from the premise that DHT causes prostate cancer, then their study finds that 11KDHT is similar but longer lasting (which @haidut has said many times), then they conclude it must also cause prostate cancer...

It doesn’t „cause“ cancer. But in the most aggressive stages of prostate cancer (regardless of cause) it doesn’t cure or hold progression anymore. It speeds up growth of the tumor.
 

Mauritio

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It doesn’t „cause“ cancer. But in the most aggressive stages of prostate cancer (regardless of cause) it doesn’t cure or hold progression anymore. It speeds up growth of the tumor.
That's kind of odd since it doesnt have any estrogenic activity afaik.
 

Scenes

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It doesn’t „cause“ cancer. But in the most aggressive stages of prostate cancer (regardless of cause) it doesn’t cure or hold progression anymore. It speeds up growth of the tumor.
Have you seen haidut’s study showing dht injected directly into the tumor made it completely disappear?
 

LeeLemonoil

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That's kind of odd since it doesnt have any estrogenic activity afaik.
Have you seen haidut’s study showing dht injected directly into the tumor made it completely disappear?

I‘ve read what Haidut posted and wrote about it, it’s important knowledge.

But nothing of it has any significance in castration resistant PC.
It’s likely that many a CRPC has been Medicaly induced by androgen ablation, many a patient killed that could have lived had he treated hyperplasia and other cancer stages with androgens or not at all

But CRPC exists nonetheless. It develops also in people without any prior medical intervention. And when the tumor is of that Kind, it uses DHT and/or 11-oxys for aggressive grow and quickly becomes terminal. If you‘d inject such a tumor with DHT you will hasten that
 

Mauritio

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"I have always suspected that the idea of hormone-independent cancer is pure fraud, most likely invented to conceal the pathological role of estrogen in all types of advanced cancers as those are usually found to be “hormone-independent” regardless of the tumor type (breast, prostate, gastric, brain, lung, kidney, ovarian, uterine, etc). While it can be easily demonstrated that tumors without receptors for a specific steroid (estrogen, androgen, progesterone, etc) do exist, this does not at all mean that they are impervious to the effects of steroids. One of the main reasons for the myth of steroid-independent tumors is that medicine refuses to admit that a steroid can affect a cell without actually binding to its respective receptor. This stubbornness may also be driven by ulterior motives since accepting the widespread non-genomic (e.g. without the need for a receptor) effects of steroids, which would quickly undermine the genomic theory of cancer genesis and progression. The combination of these reasons is probably why we have not seen much research into the topic of how steroids such as say estrogen affect steroid-independent tumors. "
-Haidut
 

ddjd

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What's you experience with it like?
yes its great for weight loss but also makes me more muscular, flat stomach, i can sleep a lot longer thanks to lower cortisol, so wake up with much more energy. definitely no estrogenic properties.

before i bought it i asked haidut about itt and he said:
"It should have very similar effects (to 11 keto dht) but likely about 1/3 as effective as 11-keto DHT based on the studies comparing them."

so overall i like it @Mauritio , but obviously having read OP's post in this thread im now worried, so temporarily stopping whilst i find out more
 

Mauritio

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yes its great for weight loss but also makes me more muscular, flat stomach, i can sleep a lot longer thanks to lower cortisol, so wake up with much more energy. definitely no estrogenic properties.

before i bought it i asked haidut about itt and he said:
"It should have very similar effects (to 11 keto dht) but likely about 1/3 as effective as 11-keto DHT based on the studies comparing them."

so overall i like it @Mauritio , but obviously having read OP's post in this thread im now worried, so temporarily stopping whilst i find out more
Sounds awesome ,how much do you take and can you compare it 11keto DHT? I think haiduts comparison is a little off . As 11 keto testosterone has higher anabolism so its more effective in that regard ,only if you compare androgenicoty it's less strong (which I wouldnt mind as DHT is very strong)

Here's a very recent review on 11keto testosterones metabolism .
 
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LeeLemonoil

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"I have always suspected that the idea of hormone-independent cancer is pure fraud, most likely invented to conceal the pathological role of estrogen in all types of advanced cancers as those are usually found to be “hormone-independent” regardless of the tumor type (breast, prostate, gastric, brain, lung, kidney, ovarian, uterine, etc). While it can be easily demonstrated that tumors without receptors for a specific steroid (estrogen, androgen, progesterone, etc) do exist, this does not at all mean that they are impervious to the effects of steroids. One of the main reasons for the myth of steroid-independent tumors is that medicine refuses to admit that a steroid can affect a cell without actually binding to its respective receptor. This stubbornness may also be driven by ulterior motives since accepting the widespread non-genomic (e.g. without the need for a receptor) effects of steroids, which would quickly undermine the genomic theory of cancer genesis and progression. The combination of these reasons is probably why we have not seen much research into the topic of how steroids such as say estrogen affect steroid-independent tumors. "
-Haidut


All true. But not refuting the possibility that 11-oxysteroids Drive malign PC.

Do you mean to imply that the 11-Oxys might actually „try“ to be protective against non-receptor active estrogens in CRPC?

Well, I’ve not thought about that possibility up until just now. If that is what you imply.

Possible. Don’t know how likely.
Cancer isn’t painting by numbers though. It’s unfeasible to categorically rule out that androgens can worsen cancers. Even if they are not causative and even as a unfunctional mechanism that is „meant“ protectively. Things can get deranged in an organism so much that what is „good“ most of the time in the majority of conditions can become very bad under very specific conditions
 

Mauritio

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Cancer isn’t painting by numbers though. It’s unfeasible to categorically rule out that androgens can worsen cancers. Even if they are not causative and even as a unfunctional mechanism that is „meant“ protectively. Things can get deranged in an organism so much that what is „good“ most of the time in the majority of conditions can become very bad under very specific conditions
Yeah I absolutely agree with that. It may be very unlikely, but there's a chance. So I'll definitely keep this in the back of my mind , if I'll try it out. I just need to read more studies on it .
 

LeeLemonoil

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Next researchers now have to try to ablate CRPC of the 11-oxyandrogens too and see if that eventually then stops progression.
Such experiments would be very eye opening. We need to rememberers checking for such studies regularly. But it’s early days in that field
 

Mauritio

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1609243585776.png

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"Considerable evidence has now demonstrated that 11KT and its 5α-reduced metabolite 11KDHT are potent and clinically relevant agonists of the human androgen receptor (AR, NR3C4). Using an MDA-kb2 cell model expressing the human AR, Rege et al. [7] found that the maximum androgenic activity of 11KT was similar to that of T, and that the EC50 of 11KT was only 5-fold higher than T."


In the second graphic you can see that metabolism of t and DHT is very similar to 11kdht and 11kt . Plus studies have shown similar androgenicity of those 4 androgens . So I dont really see why they would act differently on prostate cancer .


Btw this study has been discussed before :
 

LeeLemonoil

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So I dont really see why they would act differently on prostate cancer .

Disregarding if they are pro- or anti-cancerous: They are different. They act differently.

I see no prior discussion. I see only unproven assumptions: DHT universally beneficial in PC. And 11-keto Androgens therefore too.
I disagree with both assumptions. The first is only valid contextually, the second is neither verified nor falsified. But given that there are no redundancies in human physiology after billions of years of evolution, it think it’s unlikely
 

LeeLemonoil

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What I find interesting though is your ideas that these androgens might be well suited to treat some estrogen related cancers especially in women without undesired androgenic sides.
The Wiki article on the oxysteroids cites one study that assumes these steroids are the „androgens of healthy women“ but ice not yet read the source
 

Mauritio

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What I find interesting though is your ideas that these androgens might be well suited to treat some estrogen related cancers especially in women without undesired androgenic sides.
The Wiki article on the oxysteroids cites one study that assumes these steroids are the „androgens of healthy women“ but ice not yet read the source
Why do you think they won't have androgenic side effects ?
 
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