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GreekDemiGod

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Orally or topically with androsterone? And how much andro used daily in mgs?
I've tried both methods of usage, but mostly orally. Never more than 2mg / day, and never daily for a continued period. I would take it daily and more often, but the sides are too much: anhedonia, estrogen lowering...
 

Brandin

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And since I may have helped take this thread way off topic, I started an experiment with 11-keto dht as well. So far results seem good. Relatively mild, at least in lower doses. I haven't generally done any testing above 4 mg although did give my test subject a morning and evening dose one day, and it had a more noticeable effect. I'm hoping a low dose will encourage endogenous production and accumulated results, although interestingly some aggression was noted at lower doses that didn't seem present at higher doses; might have been unrelated, though as this doesn't seem to have repeated and wasn't present at all on the "double dose" day.
Considering dht makes you less aggressive it shouldnt have increased. Or well your aggression increases toward psychopaths and motivational feeling will be aggressively strong
 

ScurveDream

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I've tried both methods of usage, but mostly orally. Never more than 2mg / day, and never daily for a continued period. I would take it daily and more often, but the sides are too much: anhedonia, estrogen lowering...

I've used over 30 mg of Androsterone a day and eventually I find it doesn't do much anymore after tolerance -- not even the sedative properties work too well.

Sure, it had the mood boosting properties, metabolic effects/restfulness/re-energizing -- did nothing for muscle, body composition, facial masculinity, etc. though.

I think DHEA and progesterone (~1:1) is probably more capable of building muscle than just DHT, Andro or etc. (because DHEA will work quite differently/expansively)

Ultimately I grow more and more convinced that "muscle building" is really facilitated more through estrogen than testosterone -- makes sense: look at average bodybuilder's estrogen levels. Estrogen is known to trigger "growth" such as in cancer, so the logic might follow with muscle cells/swelling/water structure/etc. in some way too.

Obviously not only estrogen in a vacuum, but combine it with the right set of "terrain" to work with (IGF1, GH, insulin & various other triggerable metrics) & you get "muscle." I've decided I always have had terrible muscle/flatness/etc. due to just simply not having the right mix of epigenetic/environmental "tone"/sensitivity, structure, etc. for it.

Also, if some think this 11-Cheeto is weaker in theory than Androsterone, then that might only make it more disappointing for those experimenting with their giant mutant rats to see if it makes them capable of entering the Rat Olympics. Unfortunately the channels closed -- looks like the rats will need to find a guy in a dark alley to get their fix.
 
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I've used over 30 mg of Androsterone a day and eventually I find it doesn't do much anymore after tolerance -- not even the sedative properties work too well.

Sure, it had the mood boosting properties, metabolic effects/restfulness/re-energizing -- did nothing for muscle, body composition, facial masculinity, etc. though.

I think DHEA and progesterone (~1:1) is probably more capable of building muscle than just DHT, Andro or etc. (because DHEA will work quite differently/expansively)

Ultimately I grow more and more convinced that "muscle building" is really facilitated more through estrogen than testosterone -- makes sense: look at average bodybuilder's estrogen levels. Estrogen is known to trigger "growth" such as in cancer, so the logic might follow with muscle cells/swelling/water structure/etc. in some way too.

Obviously not only estrogen in a vacuum, but combine it with the right set of "terrain" to work with (IGF1, GH, insulin & various other triggerable metrics) & you get "muscle." I've decided I always have had terrible muscle/flatness/etc. due to just simply not having the right mix of epigenetic/environmental "tone"/sensitivity, structure, etc. for it.

Also, if some think this 11-Cheeto is weaker in theory than Androsterone, then that might only make it more disappointing for those experimenting with their giant mutant rats to see if it makes them capable of entering the Rat Olympics. Unfortunately the channels closed -- looks like the rats will need to find a guy in a dark alley to get their fix.
I've come to the same conclusion. The Peat view of "good" and "bad" hormones doesn't play well in the real world in my experience.
 

opethfeldt

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I've used over 30 mg of Androsterone a day and eventually I find it doesn't do much anymore after tolerance -- not even the sedative properties work too well.

Sure, it had the mood boosting properties, metabolic effects/restfulness/re-energizing -- did nothing for muscle, body composition, facial masculinity, etc. though.

I think DHEA and progesterone (~1:1) is probably more capable of building muscle than just DHT, Andro or etc. (because DHEA will work quite differently/expansively)

Ultimately I grow more and more convinced that "muscle building" is really facilitated more through estrogen than testosterone -- makes sense: look at average bodybuilder's estrogen levels. Estrogen is known to trigger "growth" such as in cancer, so the logic might follow with muscle cells/swelling/water structure/etc. in some way too.

Obviously not only estrogen in a vacuum, but combine it with the right set of "terrain" to work with (IGF1, GH, insulin & various other triggerable metrics) & you get "muscle." I've decided I always have had terrible muscle/flatness/etc. due to just simply not having the right mix of epigenetic/environmental "tone"/sensitivity, structure, etc. for it.

Also, if some think this 11-Cheeto is weaker in theory than Androsterone, then that might only make it more disappointing for those experimenting with their giant mutant rats to see if it makes them capable of entering the Rat Olympics. Unfortunately the channels closed -- looks like the rats will need to find a guy in a dark alley to get their fix.
Why take 5ar steroids to gain muscle? It's well known they aren't anabolic in the way testosterone is. This is stated in the first few pages of this thread, actually. They're primarily androgenic and promote metabolism. They're not going to make you into The Hulk or even dramatically improve your athletic performance.
 

ScurveDream

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Why take 5ar steroids to gain muscle? It's well known they aren't anabolic in the way testosterone is. This is stated in the first few pages of this thread, actually. They're primarily androgenic and promote metabolism. They're not going to make you into The Hulk or even dramatically improve your athletic performance.

It wouldn't matter ... no hormone/supplement does anything for one's looks for the most part. Maybe muscle, but I am not an aspiring bodybuilder so I wouldn't care for that.

"Androgenic" is such a loose term that it's meaningless anyways. "Anabolic" at least makes sense, but I've taken tons of "androgenic" things and they don't make me more "masculine." I was under the impression that "androgenic" meant it makes men look more manly ... but it was a sad reality to see these things don't do that unfortunately.
 
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It wouldn't matter ... no hormone/supplement does anything for one's looks for the most part. Maybe muscle, but I am not an aspiring bodybuilder so I wouldn't care for that.

"Androgenic" is such a loose term that it's meaningless anyways. "Anabolic" at least makes sense, but I've taken tons of "androgenic" things and they don't make me more "masculine." I was under the impression that "androgenic" meant it makes men look more manly ... but it was a sad reality to see these things don't do that unfortunately.
We have the same experience. I realize that now that people on RPF write very, very hyperbolic supplement experiences. It's frustrating to realize how much money I've spent on crap that was "androgenic" but really was useless....
 

opethfeldt

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It wouldn't matter ... no hormone/supplement does anything for one's looks for the most part. Maybe muscle, but I am not an aspiring bodybuilder so I wouldn't care for that.

"Androgenic" is such a loose term that it's meaningless anyways. "Anabolic" at least makes sense, but I've taken tons of "androgenic" things and they don't make me more "masculine." I was under the impression that "androgenic" meant it makes men look more manly ... but it was a sad reality to see these things don't do that unfortunately.
They worked for me. DHT based steroids (androsterone) made me much more masculine. They changed the entire shape of my face. I'd show you pics but I'm not comfortable putting that on a public forum. It's not subtle, though. The mental aspects, I can't say for sure. There's so much personal belief and societal conditioning surrounding masculinity that it's hard to say for sure what androgens actually do for your personality. Only a well designed placebo controlled study could say for sure. I will say that a lot of the masculine behavioral effects I got do seem to be created by my own mind, rather than a result of the substances themselves. Other things, like increased confidence, do seem to be improved by androgens.
 
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ScurveDream

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They worked for me. DHT based steroids (androsterone) made me much more masculine. They changed the entire shape of my face. I'd show you pics but I'm not comfortable putting that on a public forum. It's not subtle, though. The mental aspects, I can't say for sure. There's so much personal belief and societal conditioning surrounding masculinity that it's hard to say for sure what androgens actually do for your personality. Only a well designed placebo controlled study could say for sure. I will say that a lot of the masculine behavioral effects I got do seem to be created by my own mind, rather than a result of the substances themselves. Other things, like increased confidence, do seem to be improved by androgens.

Hm. Androsterone did not do much for me lookswise. I am not saying they are useless but for "androgenicity" most dudes and their faces look almost identical before/after roid cycles, albeit subtle weight differences.

I guess I can try pure DHT, but managing that without badge-wielders at my door seems a big gamble.
 

opethfeldt

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Hm. Androsterone did not do much for me lookswise. I am not saying they are useless but for "androgenicity" most dudes and their faces look almost identical before/after roid cycles, albeit subtle weight differences.

I guess I can try pure DHT, but managing that without badge-wielders at my door seems a big gamble.
I think there's a lot of variation in how people respond to androgens. I think a lot of it is down to androgen receptor expression and density. I've always had good testosterone levels but my DHT was never that great. I guess increasing it was enough for me to achieve my "potential", if you will. My father was quite masculine but I was always on the more "pretty boy" side of things. Androsterone made me look more like he does.

Anyway, I think it's somewhat overrated trying to become more visually masculine. It doesn't really benefit me much having more facial masculinity. I mean, sure, people treat me with more respect, call me "sir" more often and such but it's hardly life changing. Especially with regards to women. I don't attract more women now. Just ones that have a thing for the phenotype I display. I definitely wouldn't recommend taking risks to obtain DHT if you're worried about that. I've never tried it myself but there's multiple reports of people experiencing nothing from it. I suspect this is due to the paracrine nature of DHT as has been discussed here. This is an area androsterone is probably superior in because it floats around in the blood and acts like a pro hormone in tissues, which is how DHT is intended to be formed.
 
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Man, I've heard so many reports of "masculinization" of the face on RPF, but I would give anything to see before and after pictures because it's just so hard to visualize. It's crazy to me that 1000 mgs of T don't change people's faces usually, but I'm supposed to believe a few mgs of Androsterone/Vitamin K is doing it.
 

golder

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Androgens change the face, this isn't contentious or up for debate. It's just a very subtle and slow process. 2mg of vitamin K isn't going to make you Vin Diesel.
 

ScurveDream

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@ScurveDream ever think of just doing testosterone or HGH or a combination of both?

I would not touch HGH, but testosterone at low doses in DMSO sounds considerable since it won't cause any serious damage, yet cumulatively over time may show results. I would try experimenting with many more things because why not? The only issue is that it gets pricey, especially with how expensive Kuinone itself is/making a "stack."

An interesting angle could trying test but also combining something like progesterone, androsterone, epiandrosterone/phytosteroids, oral posture (mewing) & then Kuinone/Mag/Calcium. Maybe one big issue is that guys who roid overlook the metabolic/"Peat'-angle to things, whereas here you can apply these concepts in tandem.

You can apply both the physical, hormonal or "messenger" like biochemistry, but also consider the terrain AKA gut health, androgenic "tone," posture, bioenergetics, etc.

I will maybe try phytosteroids/pine pollen since they are 100% legal -- and a handful of users here report that they do noticeably work if you get pure/cracked wall tinctures/etc. If that works, for example, in such low amounts found of brassinosteroids then it's definitely worth going the pure, bioidentical test angle w/etc. "co-factors" too.

Just to throw this all out there, here are a few "ideas" I've collected that might help "re-shape" a guy's looks in a bioenergetic kinda way:

1. Antibiotics/gut cleansing/fixing (possibly because having a clean gut might allow more resources for the body to drive more skeletal/androgenic/anabolic growth). In fact, aren't antibiotics used to help farm animals grow? Perhaps this same logic can somewhat work on humans too, at least in theory (or at least along with hormones);

2. Steroids themselves obviously, although I'm very amateur at this/have not read enough to know which "stacks" and/or which applications of such might work best;

3. Forced adaptation potential AKA mewing, chewing, neurosteroids/postural adjustments over time from said things (like how you walk, talk, chew, musculature, energy levels, etc.). In some way I think posture can "help" but very minimally -- still better than nothing though as it at least is a minor step-forward over time;

4. Cortical remodeling/bone smashing maybe? I don't know how this works, but several extremists do this to make bone grow/remodel/heal broken or micro-fractured parts of bones by careful and confident infliction of bone stress. This should work, but I'd imagine it taking a long time/experimenting. Still, again, maybe better than nothing;

5. Skull positioning maybe? @JamesGatz suggested that your skull's slope/position/etc. can dictate the structure of surrounding bones to some extent, like mandible, maxilla, orbitals, frontal bone. I don't know if you can really change this over time, but my guess is it's more believable than not -- just have no solid way to utilize it objectively/for all.

6. Postural, muscular adaptation psychology? A YouTuber named IndigenousSwiss believes you can apply traits/psychological routines that corroborate or work toward certain looks, suggesting looks can be "molded" based on lifestyle, thoughts, and/or other micro-stressors and muscular fixations, like people in the sun a lot getting stronger brows/eyes/etc. akin to hunters having stronger orbital area due to the enforced psychology of adapting to squinching/squinting their eyes hours on end, walking a different way, holding their skulls/heads/faces a certain way, and so forth (like enforcing "change" this way). Tough to say + no real easy way to copy this in most modern settings.
 
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ScurveDream

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Androgens change the face, this isn't contentious or up for debate. It's just a very subtle and slow process. 2mg of vitamin K isn't going to make you Vin Diesel.

I think maybe only high growth hormones are (mostly) responsible for the "hypermasculine" look. If you look at most highly-manly guys you'll notice a few things in common:

john-cena-nikki-bella-teen-choice-awards-2016-02.jpg


1. Big ears & usually a notable essence to the forehead that's often GH correlated (look at people with acromegaly in-development/progress to compare/consider -- this is one example of a woman where her jawline did not change, but it's obvious her nose (+ probably ears & brow) did, along with the "Frankenstein-ification" tone);

2. Short or compact midface + nose (the shorter midface/eye & nose height relative to facial thirds correlates with more "aggressive" looks -- see the bulldog for example);

3. Tall and/or wide chin and mandible height overall sometimes too;

4. Lots of "fill" or "thickness" to facial skin (high collagen/turnover/GH + androgens?). Joe Rogan's one example -- look at him long ago vs. now. Maybe it's just me, but I think his ears have gotten bigger -- a typical correlation with aging, especially over time vs. some who develop very "maturely" quickly as is seen with young Cena here.

Basically there are certain "molds" or "structures" that go with or make up the face as being often "more masc." vs. "less masc." Peat himself mentioned how GH or "the death hormone" can influence cartilaginous tissue, i.e., ears and nose for example. Is it any coincidence that these masculine guys of this certain popular "pheno" ranges almost always have these traits -- and these traits themselves are associated with the effects of growth hormones? I am not saying I understand even the gist of it, but clearly something is overlooked or not delved in to here enough regarding how GH, estrogen and even osmotic/salt or other compounds in the body influence this.

I know some will say it's all "androgens" or "the effects of high testosterone/etc. in an organism" but this guy obviously takes big gear & still has a pedomorphic face. This is why I don't think it's all just "androgens" or "androgenic tone" but really other factors mostly. Not that it has nothing to do with them, but how do you argue against heavy steroid users who keep under-developed boy faces/etc., whereas GH users can more easily turn in to a Frankenstein-esque figure? I'd say the effects of the GH are WAY more prominent in facial effects over time than any androgens ... Especially when it comes to cartilage, bones and water/osmotic structure of cells and the like overall.

I recall estrogen can cause growth just as thyroid/androgens can -- one explanation being excessive height, and/or pituitary issues along with acromegaly possibly. Also, dial-in to the massive boasting of supplemental GH use as being touted like some "anti-aging elixir." I notice some celebrities -- specifically female ones -- having large ears, thicker skin, bigger jaws and/or chins & ... feet? It's obvious there is some correlation here with GH ... Maybe I'm just putting 2 & 2 together, or just insane (or both). The Hollyweird bunch using their "restorative" methods to "reverse aging" ... Or maybe just Katie Holmes' size 10.5 feet & big ears are "purely organic." And not just her either ... Look around.

I also discuss this too here so as to not throw this whole thread too off-course since this stuff obviously isn't that relative to the thread of this antiquated, keto-rat elixir.
 
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