DIM Is A Potent Androgen Antagonist And Estrogen Agonist

Xisca

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"...3,3'-Diindolylmethane (DIM) is a major digestive product of indole-3-carbinol
Supplementing i3c is the same as taking DIM?

Now if you want my personal opinion I can tell you that what better works for me is Curcuma (as whole Turmeric) and Indole-3-Carbinol but you know it also depends on each one metabolism, health condition, drugs and supps your taking, etc.

I have just been prescribed i3c, I guess to reduce estrogens, though I have no lab result to prove I have too much, only hot flushes...
Now I look in the forum, for all I have been prescribed, to decide what I take.
I am a bad client for doctors, as I contest, negate etc :D
 

Irish7777

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The question of supplementing DIM often comes up on this forum despite Peat directly advising against it. Aside from its known anti-thyroid functions, we can now add a potent androgen antagonism to its list of "benefits". So, please stop loading up on DIM in the (false) hope that it somehow steers estrogen metabolism towards less potent estrogens. All estrogens are about equally bad and it is really not wise to play with such chemical, which is now also known to be BOTH an AR antagonist (capable of displacing even DHT form its receptor) AND an estrogen receptor agonist.

Plant-derived 3,3'-Diindolylmethane is a strong androgen antagonist in human prostate cancer cells. - PubMed - NCBI

"...3,3'-Diindolylmethane (DIM) is a major digestive product of indole-3-carbinol, a potential anticancer component of cruciferous vegetables. Our results indicate that DIM exhibits potent antiproliferative and antiandrogenic properties in androgen-dependent human prostate cancer cells. DIM suppresses cell proliferation of LNCaP cells and inhibits dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulation of DNA synthesis. These activities were not produced in androgen-independent PC-3 cells. Moreover, DIM inhibited endogenous PSA transcription and reduced intracellular and secreted PSA protein levels induced by DHT in LNCaP cells. Also, DIM inhibited, in a concentration-dependent manner, the DHT-induced expression of a prostate-specific antigen promoter-regulated reporter gene construct in transiently transfected LNCaP cells. Similar effects of DIM were observed in PC-3 cells only when these cells were co-transfected with a wild-type androgen receptor expression plasmid. Using fluorescence imaging with green fluorescent protein androgen receptor and Western blot analysis, we demonstrated that DIM inhibited androgen-induced androgen receptor (AR) translocation into the nucleus. Results of receptor binding assays indicated further that DIM is a strong competitive inhibitor of DHT binding to the AR. Results of structural modeling studies showed that DIM is remarkably similar in conformational geometry and surface charge distribution to an established synthetic AR antagonist, although the atomic compositions of the two substances are quite different. Taken together with our published reports of the estrogen agonist activities of DIM, the present results establish DIM as a unique bifunctional hormone disrupter. To our knowledge, DIM is the first example of a pure androgen receptor antagonist from plants."

Hi Haidut,

I am a new poster and would like to pick your brains about something if you had a moment or two to read my post please.

I wonder could I ask you to try help me out with something.

Last summer I tried topical fin for 3 months and got bad sides, one being penile shrinkage and testicle atrophy, I weaned myself off fin over 3 weeks and start taking 3000-4000iu D3 and problem resolved.

Issue occured again a few months later after taking something else and Vit D, Zinc and Boron supplementation made things even better, my penis became even thicker and morning wood stronger (I think this was the Zinc)

Fast forward to a few weeks ago, I stupidly tried a DIM supplement for few days to try fix gyno issue left from fin

But within few days of taking DIM, penile shrinkage again except my body is not responding to Boron, Zinc or Vit D this time, it is not recovering like before.

Boron and Zinc are now making the situation worse, my penis shrivels up after taking them.
And Vit D dose is just having slight improvement.

Do you know have any explanation why my body is reacting differently this time to those supplements, could my system have crashed?

Also should I get a DHT test or other blood tests?

Any advice would me most welcome
 
Last edited:

BrianF

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Mar 25, 2016
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617
My Mother in law opted to take the Delgado Protocol (which uses a strong DIM supplement) along with Myomin and aspirin instead of Tamoxifen for breast cancer 6 years ago.

The Oncologist treating her in Poland called her in after the first year to enquire about her lifestyle because they had never seen anyone respond so well to Tamoxifen.
 

LadyRae

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Hi Haidut,

I am a new poster and would like to pick your brains about something if you had a moment or two to read my post please.

I wonder could I ask you to try help me out with something.

Last summer I tried topical fin for 3 months and got bad sides, one being penile shrinkage and testicle atrophy, I weaned myself off fin over 3 weeks and start taking 3000-4000iu D3 and problem resolved.

Issue occured again a few months later after taking something else and Vit D, Zinc and Boron supplementation made things even better, my penis became even thicker and morning wood stronger (I think this was the Zinc)

Fast forward to a few weeks ago, I stupidly tried a DIM supplement for few days to try fix gyno issue left from fin

But within few days of taking DIM, penile shrinkage again except my body is not responding to Boron, Zinc or Vit D this time, it is not recovering like before.

Boron and Zinc are now making the situation worse, my penis shrivels up after taking them.
And Vit D dose is just having slight improvement.

Do you know have any explanation why my body is reacting differently this time to those supplements, could my system have crashed?

Also should I get a DHT test or other blood tests?

Any advice would me most welcome
DIM can have diuretic effects, maybe that shrunk your member?

I have been taking DIM during my luteal phase and I really like the way it makes me feel. I sleep better at night and my skin is clear, fewer PMS related pimples.. also my legs no longer get that lactic acid puffy and heavy feeling at night. During the day I feel more calm and sometimes I'm even able to take a nice nap around 2:00 p.m. .

I just can't wrap my head around why this supplement would be bad? I guess I'm not too worried about DHT getting antagonized.... As a 45-year-old lean female I'm wondering if maybe antagonizing some androgens might actually be helping me out...
 

RealNeat

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HI
D
DIM can have diuretic effects, maybe that shrunk your member?

I have been taking DIM during my luteal phase and I really like the way it makes me feel. I sleep better at night and my skin is clear, fewer PMS related pimples.. also my legs no longer get that lactic acid puffy and heavy feeling at night. During the day I feel more calm and sometimes I'm even able to take a nice nap around 2:00 p.m. .

I just can't wrap my head around why this supplement would be bad? I guess I'm not too worried about DHT getting antagonized.... As a 45-year-old lean female I'm wondering if maybe antagonizing some androgens might actually be helping me out...
Do you still experience the same benefits?
 

MikeyFitz

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Messages
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Florida
The question of supplementing DIM often comes up on this forum despite Peat directly advising against it. Aside from its known anti-thyroid functions, we can now add a potent androgen antagonism to its list of "benefits". So, please stop loading up on DIM in the (false) hope that it somehow steers estrogen metabolism towards less potent estrogens. All estrogens are about equally bad and it is really not wise to play with such chemical, which is now also known to be BOTH an AR antagonist (capable of displacing even DHT form its receptor) AND an estrogen receptor agonist.

Plant-derived 3,3'-Diindolylmethane is a strong androgen antagonist in human prostate cancer cells. - PubMed - NCBI

"...3,3'-Diindolylmethane (DIM) is a major digestive product of indole-3-carbinol, a potential anticancer component of cruciferous vegetables. Our results indicate that DIM exhibits potent antiproliferative and antiandrogenic properties in androgen-dependent human prostate cancer cells. DIM suppresses cell proliferation of LNCaP cells and inhibits dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulation of DNA synthesis. These activities were not produced in androgen-independent PC-3 cells. Moreover, DIM inhibited endogenous PSA transcription and reduced intracellular and secreted PSA protein levels induced by DHT in LNCaP cells. Also, DIM inhibited, in a concentration-dependent manner, the DHT-induced expression of a prostate-specific antigen promoter-regulated reporter gene construct in transiently transfected LNCaP cells. Similar effects of DIM were observed in PC-3 cells only when these cells were co-transfected with a wild-type androgen receptor expression plasmid. Using fluorescence imaging with green fluorescent protein androgen receptor and Western blot analysis, we demonstrated that DIM inhibited androgen-induced androgen receptor (AR) translocation into the nucleus. Results of receptor binding assays indicated further that DIM is a strong competitive inhibitor of DHT binding to the AR. Results of structural modeling studies showed that DIM is remarkably similar in conformational geometry and surface charge distribution to an established synthetic AR antagonist, although the atomic compositions of the two substances are quite different. Taken together with our published reports of the estrogen agonist activities of DIM, the present results establish DIM as a unique bifunctional hormone disrupter. To our knowledge, DIM is the first example of a pure androgen receptor antagonist from plants."
In 2010 when I started my journey to thyroid health, I was seeing a very well-respected endocrinologist in the Dallas, TX area who supposedly practiced holistic functional medicine.

This doctor advised taking a number of supplements that were "known antagonists" to estrogen.

DIM was one of them.

Soon thereafter I stopped all supplements that he recommended and was doing great after just taking Armour Thyroid and switching to a high carb diet.

He tried to tell me that I was "leaving money on the table" by not taking the supplements he sold.
 

LadyRae

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In 2010 when I started my journey to thyroid health, I was seeing a very well-respected endocrinologist in the Dallas, TX area who supposedly practiced holistic functional medicine.

This doctor advised taking a number of supplements that were "known antagonists" to estrogen.

DIM was one of them.

Soon thereafter I stopped all supplements that he recommended and was doing great after just taking Armour Thyroid and switching to a high carb diet.

He tried to tell me that I was "leaving money on the table" by not taking the supplements he sold.
Certainly there are many people and companies that sell lots of different supplements and push them on people, but that doesn't mean that anyone particular supplement is unhealthy...

I haven't taken DIM for a little over 5 weeks now I can't say I've noticed anything one way or the other... I still had a very normal cycle. If anything, taking vitex herb has sensitized me to progesterone and has lengthened my luteal phase by a few days.

I also take calcium d-glucarate
 

MikeyFitz

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Certainly there are many people and companies that sell lots of different supplements and push them on people, but that doesn't mean that anyone particular supplement is unhealthy...

I haven't taken DIM for a little over 5 weeks now I can't say I've noticed anything one way or the other... I still had a very normal cycle. If anything, taking vitex herb has sensitized me to progesterone and has lengthened my luteal phase by a few days.

I also take calcium d-glucarate
Interesting points.

Maybe males would notice the negative side effects more than females?

- Mike
 

LadyRae

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Quite possible... It's going to be such an individual matter, dealing with hormones like that. And with current serum estrogen testing it's so hard for people to even know where they're starting from..

I haven't been able to find any sort of definitive information about DIM not only within this forum but anywhere on the internet really...

What's helped me the most has been certain fibers like carrot and cauliflower assisting with liver detox elimination, calcium d-glucarate, topical progesterone and DHEA, and I also take a 5mg DHEA capsule morning and night.

I am a quite lean 45-year-old woman, 5'11" and 128 lb currently... So I don't think that I have fatty tissue housing a lot of excess estrogen.....

My sleep noticeably deteriorates in my luteal phase, and then last night for instance, I'm right in the middle of my follicular phase, I slept for 12 hours! So sleep is the biggest thing I'm trying to tackle. It doesn't matter what I eat or how often or whether I eat in the night or blah blah blah, it is definitely a hormonal issue... So when I tried DIM I was really hoping for some benefit but all I noticed was a relatively positive diuretic effect but I'm not going to take it just for that....🤔


Interesting points.

Maybe males would notice the negative side effects more than females?

- Mike
 

MikeyFitz

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Mar 15, 2023
Messages
157
Location
Florida
Quite possible... It's going to be such an individual matter, dealing with hormones like that. And with current serum estrogen testing it's so hard for people to even know where they're starting from..

I haven't been able to find any sort of definitive information about DIM not only within this forum but anywhere on the internet really...

What's helped me the most has been certain fibers like carrot and cauliflower assisting with liver detox elimination, calcium d-glucarate, topical progesterone and DHEA, and I also take a 5mg DHEA capsule morning and night.

I am a quite lean 45-year-old woman, 5'11" and 128 lb currently... So I don't think that I have fatty tissue housing a lot of excess estrogen.....

My sleep noticeably deteriorates in my luteal phase, and then last night for instance, I'm right in the middle of my follicular phase, I slept for 12 hours! So sleep is the biggest thing I'm trying to tackle. It doesn't matter what I eat or how often or whether I eat in the night or blah blah blah, it is definitely a hormonal issue... So when I tried DIM I was really hoping for some benefit but all I noticed was a relatively positive diuretic effect but I'm not going to take it just for that....🤔
More excellent points, Rae.

Yes, keeping your estrogen lower will cause you to carry less water weight.

This is not just better esthetically, it's healthier for your heart and kidneys as well.

From your stats you sound very lean so you probably also carry a good amount of muscle mass.

I am in my 50's, 6'1" around 210 lbs. and have gotten leaner as I have added more muscle mass and decreased estrogen over the past few years.

As @haidut and others have posted, Estrogen is not required for building muscle mass, sexual function, etc.

So unlike most male body-builders, I am not worried about having low estrogen as a male.

Sleep can be so frustrating to nail down.

I changed my evening supplementation schedule to focus on sleep.

Here is what I do now:

Taking 24 drops of Estroban (A, D, E, & K) an hour before bedtime has been a game-changer for me.

In addition, I no longer take large doses of Pregnenolone or DHEA at night.

The low doses tend to be more calming, the higher doses tend to be more stimulating for me.

So I do 5 mg DHEA and 30 mg Pregnenolone at night, an hour before bed.

I also take 5 mg of Glycine powder dissolved in Orange Juice along with my 1 grain of Armour Thyroid.

Ray recommended in a few posts taking T3 alone during the day and T4/T3 combo only in the evening.

This evening supplementation program has really helped me to sleep better.

I also wake up "dryer" in the AM, looking much leaner. less water, more muscle definition.

Thanks for being a great contributor!

- Mike
 

Dr. B

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Yes a naturopath advised me to use it to try to recover from prescription antibiotics side effects. Ahe also tried getting me to megadose vitamin C, A, charcoal, b vitamins etc.
DIM is also promoted on bodybuilding and supplement forums… some guys take it thinking its anti aromatase and they consider it an important thing to use with testosterone…
 

LadyRae

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More excellent points, Rae.

Yes, keeping your estrogen lower will cause you to carry less water weight.


Yes a naturopath advised me to use it to try to recover from prescription antibiotics side effects. Ahe also tried getting me to megadose vitamin C, A, charcoal, b vitamins etc.
DIM is also promoted on bodybuilding and supplement forums… some guys take it thinking its anti aromatase and they consider it an important thing to use with testosterone…
DIM is very useful during my luteal phase as it completely eliminates any water retention or bloat😀.

I just take it that one week per month, along with upping my carrot and mushroom intake.
 

Dr. B

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Didnt someone on here previously say DIM is both anti androgenic and anti estrogenic
 

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