haidut

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EDIT: Since I keep getting questions about androsterone, here is Ray's response when asked about it:
Ray Peat Email Advice Depository Discussion/Comment Thread
"...I think it would be safe enough to try in treating cancer or brain degenerative diseases."

Here is one reference that gives backing to his statement above:
Antitumor Steroids - ScienceDirect
"...Androsterone (11) effected a 63% inhbition of bronchiogenic carcinoma A-42, 42% inhibition of epidermoid carcinoma HEp3, 81% inhibition of sarcoma HS1, and 35% inhbition of intestinal adenocarcinoma HAd1, all tested in egg [9]."

Unlike other products that we have released over the years, this one is almost completely unknown outside bodybuilding circles. Even among die-hard bodybuilders it is mostly known as its ability to function as pro-hormone for more potent androgens like DHT and 5-androstanedione. See attached images for the pathways of androsterone conversion back into androgens like DHT.

Inactivation of androgens by UDP-glucuronosyltransferase enzymes in humans. - PubMed - NCBI
The backdoor pathway to dihydrotestosterone. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Because androsterone is an efficient precursor of DHT, a moderate production rate might produce a considerable physiological effect, even if androsterone is not the most abundant 19-carbon steroid produced in 21OHD."

Androsterone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"...Androsterone, or 3α-hydroxy-5α-androstan-17-one, is an endogenous steroid hormone, neurosteroid, and putative pheromone.[1] It is a weak androgen with a potency that is approximately 1/7th that of testosterone.[2]In addition, it can be converted to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) from 3α-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, bypassing conventional intermediates such as androstenedione and testosterone, and as such, can be considered to be a metabolic intermediate in its own right.[3][4] Androsterone is also known to be an inhibitory androstane neurosteroid,[5][6] acting as a positive allosteric modulator of theGABAA receptor,[7] and possesses anticonvulsant effects.[8] The unnatural enantiomer of androsterone is more potent as a positive allosteric modulator of GABAA receptors and as an anticonvulsant than the natural form.[9] Androsterone's 3β-isomer is epiandrosterone, and its 5β-epimer is etiocholanolone."

Dihydrotestosterone synthesis pathways from inactive androgen 5α-androstane-3β,17β-diol in prostate cancer cells: Inhibition of intratumoural 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activities by abiraterone : Scientific Reports
Androgen deprivation promotes intratumoral synthesis of dihydrotestosterone from androgen metabolites in prostate cancer
Dihydrotestosterone synthesis bypasses testosterone to drive castration-resistant prostate cancer
"...The four 5α-reduced 19-carbon steroids [5α-dione, DHT, androsterone, and Adiol] are interconvertible through reversible reactions (Fig. 1). Comparison of the accumulation of total 5α-reduced steroids with [3H]-AD and [3H]-T treatments further shows that AD→5α-dione is the dominant entryway to 5α-reduced steroids (Fig. 2E)."

However, androsterone is a very interesting steroid in its own right and for a lack of a better analogy I would call it the "mirror image of DHT" due to identical structure but with reversed functional groups. It also seems to share quite a few of progesterone's effects - i.e. anti-estrogenic, sedative, anti-convulsant, pro-thyroid, pro-metabolic, brain protective, promoting insulin sensitivity, anti-adrenaline, anti-cortisol, anti-cancer, anti-depressant, etc. Some studies have gone as far as to suggest that it is androsterone that is the actual steroid with real metabolic activity while all other steroids before it in the pathways (including T and DHT) are the actual pro-hormones.

Studies with Androsterone-3-3H,4-14C | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic
"...These two studies demonstrate the surprising extent to which an important, biologically active, hormone metabolite is further utilized in vivo in man. They raise many further problems. Perhaps the most important of these is the fate of the large portion that was not detected in urine or feces. From the extent of the oxidation of the C-3 hydroxyl group, it might be concluded that a part of the androsterone could serve an important function in man as the coenzyme in a transhydrogenase system, as has indeed been demonstrated with bacterial (15) and rat liver (16) preparations."
"...In view of its biological activity and its participation in oxidation-reduction systems, it seems clear that androsterone may have metabolic functions equal to those of the hormones which generate it. Since, with the exception of testosterone, the physiological role of the other androgens is unclear, it is perhaps not too speculative to suggest that one function of these hormones may be the production of this important "metabolite."

Unlike progesterone androsterone does not have the potential for anti-androgenic effects of high doses progesterone in males. It is truly a pity that this amazing chemical saw so much research in the middle of the 20th century and even wild commercial success as the drug Atromid, only to be forgotten and replaced by much more toxic alternatives.

Disclaimer: The fact that this post and product description contain quotes from Ray Peat does not mean he endorses/approves of this product. His opinions on a chemical may change when new evidence becomes available in the future, so future inquiries about a chemical, solvent, ingredients, etc contained in this product may elicit a different response than his quotes included in this post. Please seek his opinion independently on any chemical, solvent, ingredient, etc that you may have concerns/questions about.

The units listed on the label are just for measurement purposes. They do not indicate or suggest optimal dose. Please note that similar to the products sold by companies like BlueSky, this product if for lab/research use only. The product can be ordered from the link below:
http://www.idealabsdc.com/lab

*******************************************************************************
Androsterone is an androgenic steroid derived via the activity of the enzyme 5-AR and is a donwstream metabolite of the more potent androgen DHT. Like all 5-AR derived androgens, androsterone displays anti-estrogenic and anti-glucocorticoid activity and in addition serves as a pro-hormone for DHT and other potent androgens. In addition, androsterone is a neurosteroid with potent GABA agonist activity, and is known to function as a pheromone in many animal species including humans. It has been shown to possess anti-depressant and anti-proliferative effects. Perhaps most importantly, it has been found to act like as a potent thyroid mimetic / surrogate and as such to increase basal temperature, oxygen consumption and lower lipid levels in humans.

Drops per container: about 240
Each drop contains the following ingredients:

Androsterone: 1 mg

Other ingredients: add product to shopping cart to see info
*******************************************************************************

References:

1. Androgenic / pro-sexual
Remarkable Synergistic Anabolic /androgenic Effect Of Androsterone And DHEA Combination
Androsterone - Androgenic Neurosteroid Required For Male Sexual Behavior
Androsterone - The Legal Pro-hormone For Potent 5-AR Derived Androgens

2. Anti-estrogenic
Androsterone - A Potent Steroidal Aromatase Inhibitor

3. Thyroid mimetic / surrogate
Androsterone - The Forgotten But Potent Thyroid Mimetic
Androsterone Is A Potent Agonist / Activator Of The Farnesoid X Receptor (FXR)

4. Anti-adrenaline
Androsterone Inhibits Catecholamine Release

5. Anti-cancer
Androsterone - A Neurosteroid With Anti-cancer Activity

6. Insulin resistance / sensitivity, diabetes
Androsterone - A Potential Treatment For Insulin Resistance And Diabetes

7. Neurosteroid / Mood
Androsterone - An Andidepressant Neurosteroid
The Antidepressant Mechanism Of Androsterone
Androsterone - A Potent Anxiolytic, Sedative, And Anti-convulsant Neurosteroid
 

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Tarmander

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Looks like the old dosage of Atromid was around 2 grams per day. I am guessing by the amount in this bottle, that this is more potent and such an amount is not needed?

I cannot find a range of dosage that would be appropriate to experiment with. Any clues you could give Haidut?

Also, this hormone is pretty new to me and I am trying to wrap my head around exactly where it is made in the body. Adrenals? Testicles? Meaning, would castrates have lower levels of this hormone due to lower levels of androgens?
 

haidut

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Looks like the old dosage of Atromid was around 2 grams per day. I am guessing by the amount in this bottle, that this is more potent and such an amount is not needed?

I cannot find a range of dosage that would be appropriate to experiment with. Any clues you could give Haidut?

Also, this hormone is pretty new to me and I am trying to wrap my head around exactly where it is made in the body. Adrenals? Testicles? Meaning, would castrates have lower levels of this hormone due to lower levels of androgens?

It is made both in testicles and adrenals. Physiological doses are under 10mg a day, and doses as low as 2mg - 3mg should be able to inhibit aromatase by more than 90%.
Androsterone - A Potent Steroidal Aromatase Inhibitor

There seems to be great synergy with aromatizable steroids like DHEA, and the optimal ratio is from 1:1 to 1:3 in favor of DHEA.
Remarkable Synergistic Anabolic /androgenic Effect Of Androsterone And DHEA Combination

Not sure there is an upper dose limit other than what you can tolerate in terms of higher temps as androsterone is a thyroid mimetic.
Androsterone - The Forgotten But Potent Thyroid Mimetic
 

encerent

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@haidut Any of your rats have reactions unique to this (ie, effects that aren't given to them by other idealab sups)? And in general, how have your rats been affected by this?
 

DankMemes

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Haidut congrats on the new product.

How does this compare to 11 keto dht? What benefits could it provide that dht can't and vice versa?
 

Laurence

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Can you elaborate on any testing to show that this is androsterone and not the beta isomer epiandrosterone?

Androsterone vs Epiandrosterone

Patrick Arnold:
everything i have tested that has been labeled androsterone ended up being epiandrosterone
Vida has assays listed for both versus test by injection
Androsterone 50 androgenic 30 anabolic
Epiandrosterone 2 androgenic no entry anabolic
 

cats

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What is the potential for endogenous shutdown with this, given alone or in combination with DHEA and/or 11keto-DHT?
 

haidut

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@haidut Any of your rats have reactions unique to this (ie, effects that aren't given to them by other idealab sups)? And in general, how have your rats been affected by this?

The most pronounced effects I noticed were anti-depressant (almost immediate), sedative and anxiolytic (immediate) and anti-stress. I'd say it is a lot better as a neurosteroid and metabolism booster than 11-keto DHT.
 

haidut

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Haidut congrats on the new product.

How does this compare to 11 keto dht? What benefits could it provide that dht can't and vice versa?

Can't really separate effects of 11-keto DHT from androsterone. We don't know how much of 11-keto DHT effects are really its own effects or effects from downstream metabolism into androsterone.
 

haidut

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Can you elaborate on any testing to show that this is androsterone and not the beta isomer epiandrosterone?

Androsterone vs Epiandrosterone

Patrick Arnold:

Patrick is right, and I specifically avoided epiandrosterone since it is not only inactive as an androgen but also as an aromatase inhibitor. I have the certificate of analysis from the vendor, so I guess that's my proof. Also, I tested both androsterone and epiandrosterone and the difference is immense. Whoever has access to epiandrosterone can try it and the compare to our androsterone. The difference is night and day. Epiandrosterone has a mild fever producing effect, which feels quite annoying and not like the metabolism boost that androsterone provides. If Patrick wants to get a bottle from us and test it, I'd be happy to provide it. I won't say no to free chemical analysis :):
 

DaveFoster

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@haidut Any possibility for shutdown of the HPTA at doses >10 mg?
 

mirc12354

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The most pronounced effects I noticed were anti-depressant (almost immediate), sedative and anxiolytic (immediate) and anti-stress. I'd say it is a lot better as a neurosteroid and metabolism booster than 11-keto DHT.
What dosages have you used?

You have written that it is "a potent thyroid mimetic / surrogate and as such to increase basal temperature, oxygen consumption and lower lipid levels in humans." Do you think it is safe to use if one has a rather low cholesterol levels and a good thyroid function (at least according to body temperature and TSH being under 1)? I am interested in anti-cortisol action mainly.
 
Last edited:

Rand56

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What is the half life of androsterone?

Would it be wise if I wanted to experiment on rat with this who is already taking a low dose of 11-keto DHT <2 drops per day>, to stop the application of 11-keto?

Pardon my lay person question here, and I could be wrong, but if something is anti-adrenaline, does this mean it also lowers dopamine?
 
Last edited:

haidut

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@haidut Any possibility for shutdown of the HPTA at doses >10 mg?

Doubt it, as some human studies used several hundred milligrams daily and found no ill effects on HPTA. But it always helps to keep an eye out for side effects.
 

haidut

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What dosages have you used?

You have written that it is "a potent thyroid mimetic / surrogate and as such to increase basal temperature, oxygen consumption and lower lipid levels in humans." Do you think it is safe to use if one has a rather low cholesterol levels and a good thyroid function (at least according to body temperature and TSH being under 1)? I am interested in anti-cortisol action mainly.

I posted the thyroid effects mainly as an indication that thyroid manifests its effects through downstream hormones like androsterone. If you cholesterol is low and thyroid function is good then there is probably no need to add another variable. A combination of androsterone and progesterone would probably be best for cortisol management. Androsterone and DHEA may also work as DHEA inhibits cortisol synthesis as well.
 

haidut

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What is the half life of androsterone?

Would it be wise if I wanted to experiment on rat with this who is already taking a low dose of 11-keto DHT <2 drops per day>, to stop the application of 11-keto?

Pardon my lay person question here, and I could be wrong, but if something is ant-adrenaline, does this mean it also lowers dopamine?

Adrenaline is downstream from dopamine, so inhibiting it does not mean dopamine will also go low. There animal studies showing androsterone opposes prolactin effects, and that would not have happened if androsterone was lowering dopamine somehow. I think androsterone can replace 11-keto DHT in doses about twice as high. So, if a single dose for you of 11-keto DHT was say 2 drops, I'd try 4 drops androsterone as a replacement.
 

Rand56

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Adrenaline is downstream from dopamine, so inhibiting it does not mean dopamine will also go low. There animal studies showing androsterone opposes prolactin effects, and that would not have happened if androsterone was lowering dopamine somehow. I think androsterone can replace 11-keto DHT in doses about twice as high. So, if a single dose for you of 11-keto DHT was say 2 drops, I'd try 4 drops androsterone as a replacement.

Thanks Haidut! Got it on order already.
 

whereismyOJ

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So, if a male rat is trying to raise testosterone (currently using injections, but we believe most of it's converting to estrogen), as well as trying to improve thyroid function, increase energy, lower stress, would this new Androsterone work better than the 11 keto DHT, or would using both be better?

Our original plan was to get the 11 keto DHT, TyroMix, and maybe Energin and Estroban.
 
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