Thinking About Ending My Life

[Joocy_J]

post 101525

I'm going to weigh in and give you my two cents, for what it's worth. It's going to be tough love, too; I apologize if it comes off as hard, but understand that I'm genuinely concerned for you.

I do not know all of the health issues that you have in terms of actual medical diagnosis...but, here's what I will say to you:

By no means am I saying Peat's ideas are wrong...I agree with most of it and follow a lot of it TBH...but, certainly not all of it. Why? I know my body more than Ray knows my body, despite what some literature may say, despite what some biochemical study may indicate...I know in certain instances if I do or eat or take X then I get Y...is what it is; therefore, I avoid it in the context of my own life because it's not working for me. One thing that seems to be a problem and I've been a victim of it like anyone else, is taking a dogmatic approach and becomming emotionally attached to certain ideology despite the fact that it's not working.

This is what I can recommend to you...I do not know your stats (body weight, age, height, activity level etc)...you know that. I would get a rough general idea of your daily calorie needs at the moment. You seem to eat the same thing every day, so for you, you may be able to just add what you eat up for the next 5-7 days and average the amount of calories you consume daily; compare that to your scale weight. If your scale weight is stagnant, then you are consuming roughly maintenance needs. I would consume SLIGHTLY over maintenance and this will require WORK on your part...a food scale and an arcurate means of truly tracking your food intake. Here's where I will stray from the Peatists and give you general advice, despite the fact that it may conflict with some of the information and guidelines (rules) on here.

1) You need to not only track your calories, but track your macronutrient split that makes up those calories...this doesn't have to be perfect. For the sake of simplicity eat roughly 20% dietary fat, 50% carbohydrate and 30% protein. Stop with this "drink a quart of milk" s***...eat like a human being. I know I'm going to catch flack for this...but, I won't apologize for this. I would make most of your carbohydrate intake come from various fruits, some starches like white rice. I'd get your protein from eggs (some fats from eggs also) cottage cheese/greek yogurt, various animal meats. I'd get fats from eggs, saturated fats from meat, coconut oil, butter...perhaps some olive oil etc.

2) Seriously...cut out the excessive supplementation. IDGAF what anyone says on this forum...that's a lot of supplemental vitamin A. I would try to simply include more vitamin A foods like carrots in your daily diet etc. Vit D I'd bring to 5000iu a day. I WOULD add magnesium for sure...I like Natural Calm...it's a carbonate variety and I take 2-3 servings of it per day. Everything else that you're doing though...cut that s*** out ASAP. Dead serious. The only thing I may consider is a B complex.

3) Here's where you're going to get pissed off. I don't really want to here your current health status and how much you can't leave your house...get active and start training. Yes...lift some weights, do some activity...get outside too. If you want a solid recommendation for a good weight training routine, I would LOVE to help you out. I really hope that my current inclination is wrong (that you'll turn this down)...that way you can gain some self respect, some hope for yourself and some purpose. Training is wonderful from both a health standpoint, but also from a mental standpoint...you get to make goals for yourself and conquer them week to week. No matter your health situation, you CAN overcome and work around it and train. I've seen some incredibly unhealthy people get on an exercise routine and improve their lives tremendously.

If you want to go further and discuss meal timing and frequency etc we can...but, it's not THAT important if you're relatively consistent with your intake throughout the day on a day to day...

Lifting with low libido will only make the problem worse

I really don't even know how to respond to this statement. I'm going to try to be as civil as possible here: this comment is insane and wrong. I'm certain you will not be able to produce even 1 scientific study on adult males showing a decrease in testosterone and libido from appropriately periodized, sane weight training. There is such a PLETHORA of health improvements to be made from weight training, I could write a novel on here with regards to it.

But, let's go with your advice for our fine fellow...don't train...don't get active...don't get outside. Sit inside, stare at the wall...keep eating oysters and drink a gallon of OJ everyday. That will make everything better...

I started training with a suppressed thyroid from being basically anorexic and zero sex drive. It improved every aspect of my health considerably and gave me purpose in life...and led me to my current academic path pursuing higher education and research in optimal training periodization.

I'm all for true, scientific, objective information...if it goes against what I'm saying, I will read it. But, I am seriously posting here to help the OP and I don't think his current living, thinking, doing is helping him. Clearly, it's not...it's been 5 years.

Research Article - Serum free testosterone, leptin and soluble leptin receptor changes in a 6-week strength-training programme

Strength training is usually associated with a reduction in fat mass and with muscle hypertrophy. The aim of the present study was to examine whether the serum free leptin index (FLI), measured by the molar excess of soluble leptin receptor (sOB-R) over leptin, is increased by 6 weeks of strength training. Eighteen male, physical education students were randomly assigned to two groups: a strength-training (n 12) and a control group (n 6). Body composition (lean body mass and body fat) determined by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA), muscle performance and leptin, sOB-R, total testosterone and free testosterone concentrations were determined before and after training. Fat mass was reduced by 1 kg with strength training (P < 0·05). Lean body mass of trained extremities was increased by 3 % (P < 0·05), while the concentration of free testosterone in serum was reduced by 17 % (P < 0·05) after training

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17181880

Also, off topic question - how did you get your libido back? Mine is currently gone and I am looking for suggestions.

 

[charlie]

post 101557 I'm in agreement that drinking quarts of OJ/milk, while sitting and doing nothing isn't good either, but lifting and being active isn't as easy as you say when people are in very bad state of health. Just remember, when you were at your worst, doesn't mean it's the same as someone else at their worst.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Joocy_J]

post 101557

I have some extreme issues myself, and spent the last 3 months trying to weight train, go out and play ball, etc. It's done nothing for me except make me even more incredibly drained the several following days. I'm in agreement that drinking quarts of OJ/milk, while sitting and doing nothing isn't good either, but lifting and being active isn't as easy as you say when people are in very bad state of health. Just remember, when you were at your worst, doesn't mean it's the same as someone else at their worst. I've tried what you said, and it makes me worse. And I have been active my entire life.

+1

 

[Joocy_J]

post 101556 DRTrenbolone knows what he's talking about. I'm not even being sarcastic. The way you can tell around here if you're saying something valid and helpful is if it receives sarcastic or belittling comments. The OP claims his diet is fine, but the very way in which he depicted his protocol, you can tell he doesn't have a solid foundation or any consistency. His protocol is just peatarian soundbytes, as if copied and pasted from every other log here. And his unwillingness to perceive differently or even question what he is currently doing dietary-wise shows that his current protocol is not individualized but rather rigid. I know it's harsh, but there's really nothing constructive or positive you can say yet. With all that said, i do understand the feeling sometimes that there seems to be no answer. In my experience, this usually is part of a lesson in remembering to not be defined by the problems with my health but to focus on healing and function......and then that utter confusion starts to turn to more stability and then things start to improve. A lot of times i have to admit to myself that there are often things that i'm very aware of that's causing a large percent of my problems.

Can you please explain what you mean by this? thanks

 

[tara]

Hi Coldhandsandfeet,

There is a very good chance that you can find a way to significantly recover and have more of a life than you are. If what you have been doing hasn't been working for you, then it is probably not the right thing for you at this time, and it is worth trying other things. There are many things still for you to try before you give up. Actually, there are always so many possibilities that there is probably never a good reason to give up. I'm sorry it feels hopeless to you, but I don't think it really is hopeless.

No-one here knows exactly what you need - you've got quite a few here on your side trying to help, we can all give you ideas, and likely some of them may be helpful, but none of us can give a guarantee on exactly what will work. Peat does not say everyone should eat exactly the same diet. He says to eat food you like and to eat for a high metabolism. Part of that is trying things and seeing what works. There are many changes to your diet that you could try, and there are many non-diet things you can try too.

From what you have written, the problems you are dealing with are cold hands and feet, fast heartbeat (how fast?), and serious chronic discouragement about life getting better. I haven't understood yet why you are not out doing things - is it primarily discouragement and lack of motivation, or is there something else making it more difficult too? Why did you stop going to school and work?

You've told us something about what you're eating and supplementing now, but not what else you have tried. If you want to get/post more info, you could measure you temps and pulse a few times. Also, if you want, you post something about what else you have tried? If your diet above is what you have been doing for five years, you've got a lot of other options to explore. Lots of people don't do well on that version.

I might have missed it, but do you want to tell how old you are and how tall, and what you weigh?

Here are some ideas from me - some of them might be relevant, some of them not.

Nutrition:
Food: Like others before, I too am interested in how much (calories) you are eating every day. My guess, looking at your list, is that you may be be eating way less than you need. As suggested above, cronometer is one way to check this. I'm guessing you are youngish. My understanding of calorie needs for maintaining a healthy body and metabolism is that the average man needs something in the order of 3000 cal/day, and more while under 25 and still growing and maturing. I expect there are some personal variations, but if you are way under this, it could be a key factor in you not having enough energy for your life.

While you are at it, I agree with others that it would be good to check on how much of the other nutrients you are getting on a daily basis, including carbs, fat, protein, magnesium, vitamins, minerals. It wouldn't surprise me if you are low on magnesium, as mentioned above, and I wonder about sodium (are you salting to taste?), manganese, etc. If you re low on alkaline minerals, that can cause trouble.

I think it would be reasonable to try eating a much wider range of foods, and seeing which ones you enjoy, and which ones give you serious trouble. Then just avoid the worst offenders, and anything high PUFA, and keep eating a variety of the rest. Eating a wider variety of fruits and vegetables can help ensure you get more of the minerals you need. Peat doesn't recommend eating a lot of grains and beans, and particularly wheat (this is a common one to give trouble, but many people are fine with including some in the mix). How do you do with eating potatoes, a bit of other well-cooked veges, other fruits, various cheeses, honey? What foods do you crave, or miss, or think you might have an appetite for?

I don't see coffee in your list. It's not great for everyone (I have to go very easy on it), but if it agrees with you, it's one of the more benign anti-depressants. You need to be eating enough before adding coffee, though, or it can make the stress worse.

Vit-A: Peat has said vit_A needs can vary a lot, and change over time. Excess vit-A can suppress metabolism. He has said that 5000IU is often enough for hypothyroid people. I agree with those above who have suggested trying a lower dose. There are various ways you could do it. One way would be to skip it altogether for a couple of days, and then take just 5000IU/day, and see if that goes better or worse. If worse, increase by no more than 5000IU at a time every few days till it seems better. I know acne is a pain, but there are worse things than acne, and from what you say, what your dealing with is a lot worse.

B-vits: Quite a few of us have had benefits from supplementing various B-vits. You could look up Haidut's posts to see about specific effects. Peat often recommends niacinamide, and sometimes others - eg B1, B6. Unlike the fat-soluble ADEK, the B-s go out of the body within a few hours if they are not used, so divided doses through the day with meals can work better.

Supplements:
Pregnenolone: I'd recommend trying much less of this. It doesn't have to be 300mg or nothing. It sticks a round in the system for a while, so again, you could skip it for a few days, then try a smaller dose - eg 50 or 100 mg once or twice a week. Again, see if this makes it better or worse, and adjust accordingly. There are several people here who have found themselves short on energy to function when they took too much pregnenolone.

Aspirin: If you haven't tried aspirin, it's another possibility of a relatively benign drug that can have some good effects for many people. Suitable dosage varies - start small, back off if it doesn't seem good, and adjust to suit yourself. I've recently taken to using quite small amounts of aspirin and coffee together to enhance each others effects. Some use lots.

Cyproheptadine: Ho w much have you been taking? It makes many people drowsy. You could try a lower dose. I and some others notice effect from 0.5mg (1/8 of a 4mg tablet). If you've sorted your gut issues, you may not need to keep taking it, or may be better off with less.

Other factors:

Sunlight: I agree with those above who encourage you to get outside in the day light for a good bit every day. You cannot maintain your energy if you don't get plenty of good light. We need sunlight light on your skin. When there isn't any sun, supplemental red-light can help a bit, but being outside gives so much more - light and a more interesting environment.

Activity:As others have suggested, some physical movement everyday is also necessary to maintain health. YOu need to be eating enough to provide energy for it. If you are severely undernourished, it may be that a gentle walk outside every day s enough to be starting with, but hopefully you will be able to gradually get to do a wider range of things. Preferably find something you can enjoy with other people - eg depending on your physical energy levels and interests, that might be yoga (I recommend this for many reasons), walking, take a dance class, some sport that doesn't wreck you, maybe some body weight exercise or weights. But getting outside is good, so if you choose indoor activities, get out in the sun regularly too. Don't push yourself to exhaustion. Check your temps and pulse a while after exercise. If they are down a lot from pre-exercise, that might indicate you were overdoing it a bit - so don't push so hard next time.

Breathing: Is your breathing reliably calm, nasal, and diaphragmatic? At night too? You can check your Control Pause (Buteyko term - how long you can comfortably hold your breath at rest after an exhalation a before you feel an impulse to inhale?) to assess your typical CO2 levels. If CO2 is low, this can cause various trouble. It can be improved.

Life: Even (and maybe especially) when we are struggling with health I think it is difficult to recover without having at least part of our lives involved with meaningful activity and with other people. Remember/choose some goals you have for yourself and the people and world around you, and start taking action in these directions. Even if it is hard, I think you need to find a way to be around other people more. Join a class or activity that interests you. Find a way to include some regular creativity in your life - try things - eg learn a musical instrument, draw, make things - something that interests you.

post 101467 this is not about diet. my diet and meal frequency is perfectly fine. i need some drugs.

I don't think you can know this yet. I'd strongly recommend seeing if you can make improvements with nutrition and other lifestyle factors before resorting to other drugs (with the possible exception of aspirin).

If you are really in danger of your life, please get some personal support - call a local help-line or whatever support is available where you are.

Take care - there is hope.

 

[DRTrenbolone]

post 101525

I'm going to weigh in and give you my two cents, for what it's worth. It's going to be tough love, too; I apologize if it comes off as hard, but understand that I'm genuinely concerned for you.

I do not know all of the health issues that you have in terms of actual medical diagnosis...but, here's what I will say to you:

By no means am I saying Peat's ideas are wrong...I agree with most of it and follow a lot of it TBH...but, certainly not all of it. Why? I know my body more than Ray knows my body, despite what some literature may say, despite what some biochemical study may indicate...I know in certain instances if I do or eat or take X then I get Y...is what it is; therefore, I avoid it in the context of my own life because it's not working for me. One thing that seems to be a problem and I've been a victim of it like anyone else, is taking a dogmatic approach and becomming emotionally attached to certain ideology despite the fact that it's not working.

This is what I can recommend to you...I do not know your stats (body weight, age, height, activity level etc)...you know that. I would get a rough general idea of your daily calorie needs at the moment. You seem to eat the same thing every day, so for you, you may be able to just add what you eat up for the next 5-7 days and average the amount of calories you consume daily; compare that to your scale weight. If your scale weight is stagnant, then you are consuming roughly maintenance needs. I would consume SLIGHTLY over maintenance and this will require WORK on your part...a food scale and an arcurate means of truly tracking your food intake. Here's where I will stray from the Peatists and give you general advice, despite the fact that it may conflict with some of the information and guidelines (rules) on here.

1) You need to not only track your calories, but track your macronutrient split that makes up those calories...this doesn't have to be perfect. For the sake of simplicity eat roughly 20% dietary fat, 50% carbohydrate and 30% protein. Stop with this "drink a quart of milk" s***...eat like a human being. I know I'm going to catch flack for this...but, I won't apologize for this. I would make most of your carbohydrate intake come from various fruits, some starches like white rice. I'd get your protein from eggs (some fats from eggs also) cottage cheese/greek yogurt, various animal meats. I'd get fats from eggs, saturated fats from meat, coconut oil, butter...perhaps some olive oil etc.

2) Seriously...cut out the excessive supplementation. IDGAF what anyone says on this forum...that's a lot of supplemental vitamin A. I would try to simply include more vitamin A foods like carrots in your daily diet etc. Vit D I'd bring to 5000iu a day. I WOULD add magnesium for sure...I like Natural Calm...it's a carbonate variety and I take 2-3 servings of it per day. Everything else that you're doing though...cut that s*** out ASAP. Dead serious. The only thing I may consider is a B complex.

3) Here's where you're going to get pissed off. I don't really want to here your current health status and how much you can't leave your house...get active and start training. Yes...lift some weights, do some activity...get outside too. If you want a solid recommendation for a good weight training routine, I would LOVE to help you out. I really hope that my current inclination is wrong (that you'll turn this down)...that way you can gain some self respect, some hope for yourself and some purpose. Training is wonderful from both a health standpoint, but also from a mental standpoint...you get to make goals for yourself and conquer them week to week. No matter your health situation, you CAN overcome and work around it and train. I've seen some incredibly unhealthy people get on an exercise routine and improve their lives tremendously.

If you want to go further and discuss meal timing and frequency etc we can...but, it's not THAT important if you're relatively consistent with your intake throughout the day on a day to day...

Lifting with low libido will only make the problem worse

I really don't even know how to respond to this statement. I'm going to try to be as civil as possible here: this comment is insane and wrong. I'm certain you will not be able to produce even 1 scientific study on adult males showing a decrease in testosterone and libido from appropriately periodized, sane weight training. There is such a PLETHORA of health improvements to be made from weight training, I could write a novel on here with regards to it.

But, let's go with your advice for our fine fellow...don't train...don't get active...don't get outside. Sit inside, stare at the wall...keep eating oysters and drink a gallon of OJ everyday. That will make everything better...

I started training with a suppressed thyroid from being basically anorexic and zero sex drive. It improved every aspect of my health considerably and gave me purpose in life...and led me to my current academic path pursuing higher education and research in optimal training periodization.

I'm all for true, scientific, objective information...if it goes against what I'm saying, I will read it. But, I am seriously posting here to help the OP and I don't think his current living, thinking, doing is helping him. Clearly, it's not...it's been 5 years.

Research Article - Serum free testosterone, leptin and soluble leptin receptor changes in a 6-week strength-training programme

Strength training is usually associated with a reduction in fat mass and with muscle hypertrophy. The aim of the present study was to examine whether the serum free leptin index (FLI), measured by the molar excess of soluble leptin receptor (sOB-R) over leptin, is increased by 6 weeks of strength training. Eighteen male, physical education students were randomly assigned to two groups: a strength-training (n 12) and a control group (n 6). Body composition (lean body mass and body fat) determined by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA), muscle performance and leptin, sOB-R, total testosterone and free testosterone concentrations were determined before and after training. Fat mass was reduced by 1 kg with strength training (P < 0·05). Lean body mass of trained extremities was increased by 3 % (P < 0·05), while the concentration of free testosterone in serum was reduced by 17 % (P < 0·05) after training

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17181880

Also, off topic question - how did you get your libido back? Mine is currently gone and I am looking for suggestions.

I'm glad you've posted this study and I'll also be glad to address your second question...off topic or not, all information can be beneficial to not just the OP, but all of us.

There's a lot that I need to address with regards to the study, so let me do it in bullet points, I guess:

Point 1: "Strength Training" and "Training etc...these are terms that allow for such an extraordinary variance in protocol and procedure that it's very difficult/unfair to make determinations on hormonal values, efficacy, health implications etc from a given study. Perhaps, if what you posted allowed for me to examine and evaluate the actual training protocol followed by the subjects, then I could better determine it's value in the context of hormonal variance. I really don't have any idea what this "6 week Strength Training" entailed and for all I or you know, it may have been horrendous in design for the individuals subjected to it...OR, it may have been rather sound; I can't know for sure unless I see the details.

Point 2: I have no idea as to the initial general physical preparedness of the subjects prior to engaging in the protocol. This is linked to point one in a sense. Perhaps, the individuals were very much in an "overreached" (do not confuse with chronically overtraining) state by the end of the 6 week protocol, thereby cortisol would likely be slightly elevated and testosterone slightly suppressed.

Point 3: Despite the fact that you pointed out the testosterone value dropping...lean body mass was increased in only 6 weeks and adipose tissue was decreased. Not only are blood level indicators of testosterone intrinsically incomplete with regards to determining overall physiological state of being...even if they were highly indicative of libido, well-being, health etc, it is one value that is notoriously variable given the day, time of testing etc.

Point 4: Adding to point 3, again, blood markers of total and free testosterone paint an incredibly incomplete picture of sexual health. I've seen guys with low to borderline low testosterone levels who are able to pop boners without issue and who are sexually active. This seems like a contradiction to a lot of what I read from many of you...those who claim that blood levels of thyroid hormone are very incomplete with regards to actual metabolic health/thyroid health. If you can see that truth with the thyroid, you should be able to deduce the same logic for that of any other hormone/gland.

Point 5: Let's assume these individuals WERE generally, physically prepared; let's assume they followed a sound, periodized training protocol. As mentioned in a previous point, this would lend itself to a slightly overreached state by the climax of the 6th week, especially if they were progressively overloading the major lifts and getting stronger week to week. That's a lot of systemic stress to the body systems...the CNS...everything really. This is the whole purpose of the study of training periodization. How to ebb and flow training with rest or taper weeks in order to benefit from the accumulative fatigue of training blocks. It's about creating favorable adaptations from unfavorable situations (unfavorable in that your body does not enjoy putting weight on it's back in increasingly heavy fashion week to week). At some point a taper is necessary, funny enough..usually after 6-8 weeks of progressive weight training. I would love to see these subjects hormone levels after 1-2 taper weeks...I would go even further to say that they would elicit even further strength/hypertrophy adaptations during their period of drastically reduced training volume.

Now, with regards to my libido...very simple answer. I increased my calories...I trained hard, but smart (ie I included deload weeks, taper weeks, weeks off) I kept carbohydrates the brunt of my diet, however I did not exclude fats to any severe degree in order to do so. Dietary fat usually never dropped much below 50-60g per day. Over a period of 6 months, my libido came back to normal. The only times my libido drops from training is at the end of a very hard, progressive block of training, which could possibly tie in to the study you posted. This would be indicative of overreaching...most individuals probably never get to that overreached state anyway because they aren't likely utilizing as much volume in the major compound movements as I or someone else involved in powerlifting training or olympic weightlifting training etc. The training population that tends to suffer the most devastating effects from training are highly competitive endurance athletes...a lot more so than strength athletes. In fact, overtraining is observed a lot more in endruance athletes...usually strength athletes run into a possible overtrained state by pushing way to hard, for too long, in combination with a heavy endurance training program on top of it.

There are many studies to indicate that the average androgen levels go UP over time with consistent weight training and appropriate nutrition...over time is the key...there will always be ebbs and flows depending on the individual and the current state of their training (is it very intense at that point...did they accumulate a great amount of volume and fatigue in recent weeks? etc).

I'm also not one to be against drugs as prescribed by a suitable MD...and perhaps, the OP has severe testosterone problems as well. Certainly, Dr. RP would claim that the testosterone issues are linked to underlying metabolic/thyroid issues...however, he would also argue for an individual to supplement with T3 or a glandular...would he not? So, why would it be so out of the realm of reasoning to have an individual in that state get evaluated by a proper endo/urologist and supplement with testosterone cypionate if need be?

That being said...I don't think the OP should start pinning test...what I think the OP should do is re-evaluate how much of his life he is actually controlling and how much he is simply letting be controlled by his current state and mental defeatist attitude.

 

[Brian]

3) Here's where you're going to get pissed off. I don't really want to here your current health status and how much you can't leave your house...get active and start training. Yes...lift some weights, do some activity...get outside too. If you want a solid recommendation for a good weight training routine, I would LOVE to help you out. I really hope that my current inclination is wrong (that you'll turn this down)...that way you can gain some self respect, some hope for yourself and some purpose. Training is wonderful from both a health standpoint, but also from a mental standpoint...you get to make goals for yourself and conquer them week to week. No matter your health situation, you CAN overcome and work around it and train. I've seen some incredibly unhealthy people get on an exercise routine and improve their lives tremendously.

I strongly agree with this. Peat doesn't emphasize muscle training, but his articles clearly explain why DHT is necessary for hormonal balance. Training in a reasonable way is an excellent way to increase DHT. It doesn't have to be stressful in order to be effective (result in chronically high stress hormones). It can very quickly increase DHT production which will take care of estrogen as well as dramatically increase dopamine.

In fact I think too little DHT is probably the main biochemical cause of "hypothyroidism." You can supplement it, but muscle training of some kind without overdoing, while being fully nourished is one of the best biochemical adjustments you can make to your body. Some significant stimulation of the legs and back muscles is essential for health in my experience.

 

[Joocy_J]

What would you make of someone who lost their libido during a course of powerlifting training and has not regained it since quitting training? Assuming that calorie intake is adequate?

Also, how do you define overreaching vs overtraining?

Peat has said that he thinks testosterone gel is safe, I think he is against injections because they are a lot more invasive then gel on the skin.

 

[DRTrenbolone]

post 101579 What would you make of someone who lost their libido during a course of powerlifting training and has not regained it since quitting training? Assuming that calorie intake is adequate?

Also, how do you define overreaching vs overtraining?

Peat has said that he thinks testosterone gel is safe, I think he is against injections because they are a lot more invasive then gel on the skin.

I'd first wonder if the individual possibly used any AAS OR substances that they didn't realize were steroids or had androgenic effects. That would honestly be my first question. Reason: for quite a while (up until a year or so ago) there were prohormones, as well as designer steroids being sold legally in supplement stores. Some popular ones were "Superdrol" and "Epistane" etc...superdrol is essentially masteron (a long time used, illegal steroid) that has been 17 alpha alkylated (methylated) in order to survive oral administration. They were incredibly hepatatoxic, as well as highly suppressive to the HPTA. So...if they used that, and never properly recovered from the likely suppression, that would be the reason.

If they truly did not use anything, I would think that they must have done something very stupid with regards to nutrition. Either they severely under ate and didn't realize it or they cut out an entire macronutrient without compensating with another macronutrient etc. You're saying that your current calorie intake is adequate, then it could have been an underlying issue and honestly, coincidental. Just understand, there is a lot more to libido than testosterone...we can go superficially further as estradiol levels, progesterone, prolactin levels, DHT levels...we can go a bit deeper and talk about implications of dopamine levels even. There ARE men out there with high testosterone who cannot get boners and have no interest to...that clearly shows there is something more going on behind the scenes.

I'd be sure that you're getting at least 8 hours of sleep each night...work on stress reduction and meditative practice...perhaps reduce your caffeine consumption (I love caffeine, but this is individual and it's benefits could be outweighed by it's ability to increase stress hormones acutely)...ensure that you're getting adequate vitamin D3, cholesterol etc and not be afraid to add more saturated fat to your diet.

 

[iLoveSugar]

What does a daily food log look like for you if you don't mind me asking DRT?

 

[Joocy_J]

post 101580

post 101579 What would you make of someone who lost their libido during a course of powerlifting training and has not regained it since quitting training? Assuming that calorie intake is adequate?

Also, how do you define overreaching vs overtraining?

Peat has said that he thinks testosterone gel is safe, I think he is against injections because they are a lot more invasive then gel on the skin.

I'd first wonder if the individual possibly used any AAS OR substances that they didn't realize were steroids or had androgenic effects. That would honestly be my first question. Reason: for quite a while (up until a year or so ago) there were prohormones, as well as designer steroids being sold legally in supplement stores. Some popular ones were "Superdrol" and "Epistane" etc...superdrol is essentially masteron (a long time used, illegal steroid) that has been 17 alpha alkylated (methylated) in order to survive oral administration. They were incredibly hepatatoxic, as well as highly suppressive to the HPTA. So...if they used that, and never properly recovered from the likely suppression, that would be the reason.

If they truly did not use anything, I would think that they must have done something very stupid with regards to nutrition. Either they severely under ate and didn't realize it or they cut out an entire macronutrient without compensating with another macronutrient etc. You're saying that your current calorie intake is adequate, then it could have been an underlying issue and honestly, coincidental. Just understand, there is a lot more to libido than testosterone...we can go superficially further as estradiol levels, progesterone, prolactin levels, DHT levels...we can go a bit deeper and talk about implications of dopamine levels even. There ARE men out there with high testosterone who cannot get boners and have no interest to...that clearly shows there is something more going on behind the scenes.

I'd be sure that you're getting at least 8 hours of sleep each night...work on stress reduction and meditative practice...perhaps reduce your caffeine consumption (I love caffeine, but this is individual and it's benefits could be outweighed by it's ability to increase stress hormones acutely)...ensure that you're getting adequate vitamin D3, cholesterol etc and not be afraid to add more saturated fat to your diet.

No AAs or pro-hormone use. Prolactin levels came back low. Already doing all of the things listed. thanks though

Can you address overtraining vs overreaching? I have never heard of overreaching before. thanks

 

[DRTrenbolone]

post 101581 What does a daily food log look like for you if you don't mind me asking DRT?

Sure thing...I'll give you a training day:

Meal 1 ~8am:
200g Fage 0% Greek Yogurt
2 Bananas
1-2 Apples
1 Serving Puffed Rice Cereal
1 TBSP Honey
Half Tablespoon Coconut Oil (99% MCT)
18g Collagen Protein (AMINO RIP brand)
2 cups of coffee, 6tsp sugar

Meal 2 ~10-11am
3 Whole Eggs
Half TBSP Coconut Oil
Salt
Large Orange
Apple or Plum or Banana
Some Dark Chocolate
1 cup coffee 3 tsp sugar

Meal 3 ~230-3PM
5oz Cooked Chicken Breast
Piece of Fruit

Meal 4 ~4-5PM
Usually a Cliff Bar for some carbs pre training

Training 6PM
10 Minutes prior - 10g Branched Chain Amino Acids
Immediately Post - 30g Whey Protein

Meal 5 ~8PM
12oz Raw Steak (Sirloin or New York Strip)
18g Collagen Protein (AMINO RIP)
Small amount of green beans
Half TBSP Coconut Oil

***If I'm hungry right after this I will usually have a chicken or roast beef sandwich..usually 3-4oz of meat in between two pieces of whatever bread is in the house. (Don't really eat much bread, though)

Meal 6 ~10PM
200g Fage Greek Yogurt 0%
113g Friendship Dairy Cottage Cheese/W Pineapple
140g Blueberries (Frozen)
1 Serving Puffed Rice Cereal
1 Banana


Understand that this is an average day...I may meet up with friends after lifting and eat a burrito from Chipotle. 8/10 days looks like this...some days I eat a sandwich like described...some days I don't. Some days I eat more cottage cheese as opposed to chicken or beef etc..

 

[Tarmander]

post 101581 What does a daily food log look like for you if you don't mind me asking DRT?

Sure thing...I'll give you a training day:

Meal 1 ~8am:
200g Fage 0% Greek Yogurt
2 Bananas
1-2 Apples
1 Serving Puffed Rice Cereal
1 TBSP Honey
Half Tablespoon Coconut Oil (99% MCT)
18g Collagen Protein (AMINO RIP brand)
2 cups of coffee, 6tsp sugar

Meal 2 ~10-11am
3 Whole Eggs
Half TBSP Coconut Oil
Salt
Large Orange
Apple or Plum or Banana
Some Dark Chocolate
1 cup coffee 3 tsp sugar

Meal 3 ~230-3PM
5oz Cooked Chicken Breast
Piece of Fruit

Meal 4 ~4-5PM
Usually a Cliff Bar for some carbs pre training

Training 6PM
10 Minutes prior - 10g Branched Chain Amino Acids
Immediately Post - 30g Whey Protein

Meal 5 ~8PM
12oz Raw Steak (Sirloin or New York Strip)
18g Collagen Protein (AMINO RIP)
Small amount of green beans
Half TBSP Coconut Oil

***If I'm hungry right after this I will usually have a chicken or roast beef sandwich..usually 3-4oz of meat in between two pieces of whatever bread is in the house. (Don't really eat much bread, though)

Meal 6 ~10PM
200g Fage Greek Yogurt 0%
113g Friendship Dairy Cottage Cheese/W Pineapple
140g Blueberries (Frozen)
1 Serving Puffed Rice Cereal
1 Banana


Understand that this is an average day...I may meet up with friends after lifting and eat a burrito from Chipotle. 8/10 days looks like this...some days I eat a sandwich like described...some days I don't. Some days I eat more cottage cheese as opposed to chicken or beef etc..

Interesting...you know those cliff bars might as well be estrogen bars for all the soy they packem with?

 

[DRTrenbolone]

post 101584

post 101580

post 101579 What would you make of someone who lost their libido during a course of powerlifting training and has not regained it since quitting training? Assuming that calorie intake is adequate?

Also, how do you define overreaching vs overtraining?

Peat has said that he thinks testosterone gel is safe, I think he is against injections because they are a lot more invasive then gel on the skin.

I'd first wonder if the individual possibly used any AAS OR substances that they didn't realize were steroids or had androgenic effects. That would honestly be my first question. Reason: for quite a while (up until a year or so ago) there were prohormones, as well as designer steroids being sold legally in supplement stores. Some popular ones were "Superdrol" and "Epistane" etc...superdrol is essentially masteron (a long time used, illegal steroid) that has been 17 alpha alkylated (methylated) in order to survive oral administration. They were incredibly hepatatoxic, as well as highly suppressive to the HPTA. So...if they used that, and never properly recovered from the likely suppression, that would be the reason.

If they truly did not use anything, I would think that they must have done something very stupid with regards to nutrition. Either they severely under ate and didn't realize it or they cut out an entire macronutrient without compensating with another macronutrient etc. You're saying that your current calorie intake is adequate, then it could have been an underlying issue and honestly, coincidental. Just understand, there is a lot more to libido than testosterone...we can go superficially further as estradiol levels, progesterone, prolactin levels, DHT levels...we can go a bit deeper and talk about implications of dopamine levels even. There ARE men out there with high testosterone who cannot get boners and have no interest to...that clearly shows there is something more going on behind the scenes.

I'd be sure that you're getting at least 8 hours of sleep each night...work on stress reduction and meditative practice...perhaps reduce your caffeine consumption (I love caffeine, but this is individual and it's benefits could be outweighed by it's ability to increase stress hormones acutely)...ensure that you're getting adequate vitamin D3, cholesterol etc and not be afraid to add more saturated fat to your diet.

No AAs or pro-hormone use. Prolactin levels came back low. Already doing all of the things listed. thanks though

Can you address overtraining vs overreaching? I have never heard of overreaching before. thanks

I will do a bit more reading with regards to your situation and perhaps have more suggestions.

With regards to overtraining vs overreaching:

Overreaching is basically a situation by which you are going slightly beyond your means of recovery. Usually this happens during a period of higher overall volume mixed with higher than usual intensity. It's not usual to occur if you are simply training with higher intensity, but very low volume...or higher volume with very low intensity...it tends to happen during periods where there is a variable mixture of both, but one of them is very high regardless. This is usually followed by a "taper" or "deload" in which you drastically scale back training volume in order to allow for positive training adaptations to take place. If you are really pushing hard and progressing in terms of volume/load...at some point you will feel thrashed and may start to feel very burned out, fatigued etc...you may even suffer some performance decreases. This is a period of overreaching, and should not be confused with overtraining.

This CAN become chronic overtraining if the individual just keeps pushing forward without any breaks. It's rare though and usually an overuse injury will derail you before you reach a true overtrained state.

Overreaching results in positive adaptation after a week or 2 of reduction in volume or abstinence from training. Think of it like stretching a rubber band more and more until you can't stretch much more...if you let go on the tension it will release and all that cumulative stress will transpose into a "release" (in the case of training, supercompensation) ...if you keep stretching the band...it snaps...that would be overtraining.

 

[Nicholas]

post 101567 In my experience, this usually is part of a lesson in remembering to not be defined by the problems with my health but to focus on healing and function......and then that utter confusion starts to turn to more stability and then things start to improve. A lot of times i have to admit to myself that there are often things that i'm very aware of that's causing a large percent of my problems.


Can you please explain what you mean by this? thanks

well, i'm saying a lot of different things there. we have to be careful the way we REACT to signs of dysfunction in our body. it's about proceeding through it all and knowing that the body knows how to heal, and that it WANTS to. It's about choosing to be focused and concentrated on something as simple as eating something rather than be focused and concentrated on how to fix a liver issue. It's about choosing to be focused and concentrated on something as simple as going to bed rather than be focused and concentrated on how to fix a facial deformation. I'm not saying the steps of healing are always that simple, but a lot of times our focus on dysfunction overrides everything and then that focus itself starts to lead to dysfunction. feelings of confusion or frustration or hopelessness are usually easily remedied by journaling for a couple days on food - and documenting everything....because it forces you to become very engaged again.....and that confused/frustrated/hopeless phase is really a phase indicative of disengagement. So the cure becomes engagement and trust. I find that it's a cycle that always rolls back around again....where in the mess of life you invariably start to disengage and/or your body is needing a change that you aren't engaged enough to perceive. If we documented every last thing every day, it would be very easy to go back and see the cumulative decisions we've made or the cumulative events which have taken place that can explain maybe some present issue. Not saying we should do that, of course....the point is that it's not usually some huge mysterious thing for me. Entering back into engagement after a stint of disengagement is healing in and of itself mentally because there's a peace in tending to your own health truthfully just like there's peace when you tend to your working profession truthfully.

I can't really claim to be doing this, but i'm also starting to sense that gratitude could be a very potent healer. Gratitude in the sense of: Not feeling we deserve more than what we have (even health-wise). Grateful enough to eat whatever we eat peacably and with a right spirit. I think someone else mentioned something like this in this thread about being hopeless as being a good state to be in....and i think that's true in the sense of it being what increases gratitude for what we have. I think this mindset would offer real healing and also have physical benefits. because we can't fool our own bodies.

 

[tara]

@Coldhandsandfeet
Another factor that may be relevant - maybe you've had some particularly distressing experiences that have accumulated to be more stress than you feel you can cope with for now. In some ways society is organised with some rather inhuman priorities, and people get hurt a lot. And sometimes sh** happens to people anyway. If you've got a pile of grief or worry about your life going on, it might be really helpful to find someone who can listen to you talk (cry, shake, laugh, etc) about that. Sometimes life looks a lot better, and hope and energy can be somewhat restored, once such stresses are released. Hope you can find someone around like that who is willing and able to listen for a bit. If you listen to them about their life too, you're less likely to wear them out.

 

[mujuro]

Two things jumped out at me. You do nothing all day, and you live with your parents. Those two things, in combination, are poison to a young adult.

 

[Greg says]

post 101609 Two things jumped out at me. You do nothing all day, and you live with your parents. Those two things, in combination, are poison to a young adult.

post 101609 Two things jumped out at me. You do nothing all day, and you live with your parents. Those two things, in combination, are poison to a young adult.

Yes agree, living with parents + doing nothing (no plans or goals, or hopes or dreams) + whatever, high oestrogen /serotonin and low dopamine is trouble.

Even at 40+, when I spend too long with my parents, i can feel myself become powerless and slip into learned helplessness.

"The events on any day can move us towrad "learned helplessness" or toward "creative productivity". - Ray Peat

Learned helplessness, hopelessness, despairing naturally lead to a 'I give up reaction'. I experienced this myself. I forced myself to go to India for 6 months by myself. I also found Tianeptine valuable in getting out of a hole.

"I have found that going somewhere and doing something very different always gives me a new start physically as well as mentally." —Ray Peat

This is where I see a problem with this forum. People come looking for help and end up getting multiple answers and then people squabbling over their answers leaving people more confused and desperate. The right answer may be in this thread, or not.

Personally, I agree with another comment, all these supps would make me sick and depressed. Food does not fix life problems (of course it can help the body a great deal). I felt great when I went to India and I was living off very poor quality food cooked in black PUFA.

"Nutrition is important but so is life, stress, light...and even your thoughts". - Ray Peat

I read this a week or so ago which I like...

'I've had a headache pretty much all day. The vitamin D expert will say I have vitamin D deficiency. The magnesium guy will say I need more magnesium. The gluten doc will say I was exposed to hidden gluten. The hormone lady will say I need to have my adrenals tested...I say leave me alone. Your BS is making it worse. The point here is that an occasional headache is LIFE, not an opportunity for an expert to convince you that you have "their" problem.' - Sean Croxton

 

[Coldhandsandfeet]

You guys make these comments like its so simple. Spend time with friends. Pursue a career. Go outside more. I've been dealing with this for 5 years. The first 3 I pushed myself into social situations and worked a full time job despite feeling awful. I've lost a lot of friends because I was just a shell of myself. Moping around, I wasn't myself. People stopped reaching out to me. I just don't have the energy for social interaction. And a job is just too demanding when I barely have the energy to make myself breakfast. I even moved out of my house but had to go back home because I couldn't handle it. My heart is constantly pounding and I'm lightheaded. And people telling me I take too many supps? I take estroban and pregnenolone but I'm cutting the pregnenolone out and Armour as prescribed as a doctor. That's two things. The focus is on diet. I've pounded more cyproheptadine over the years than anyone on this forum. I guarantee my issue is not serotonin.

 

[DRTrenbolone]

You guys make these comments like its so simple. Spend time with friends. Pursue a career. Go outside more. I've been dealing with this for 5 years. The first 3 I pushed myself into social situations and worked a full time job despite feeling awful. I've lost a lot of friends because I was just a shell of myself. Moping around, I wasn't myself. People stopped reaching out to me. I just don't have the energy for social interaction. And a job is just too demanding when I barely have the energy to make myself breakfast. I even moved out of my house but had to go back home because I couldn't handle it. My heart is constantly pounding and I'm lightheaded. And people telling me I take too many supps? I take estroban and pregnenolone but I'm cutting the pregnenolone out and Armour as prescribed as a doctor. That's two things. The focus is on diet. I've pounded more cyproheptadine over the years than anyone on this forum. I guarantee my issue is not serotonin.

Exactly. Your issue is not seratonin; your issue is that you've "pumped more cyproheptadine than anyone else on this forum". How do you not find issue with that?

And that amount of vitamin A is assinign. I've really gone out of my way to type quite a lot in an attempt to help you, however you've only given excuses and rejected it. I'm going to give you the short answer: stop doing what you've been doing. It's not working for you...what else needs to be said?

I gave you dietary advice and you didn't even acknowledge it.