Thinking About Ending My Life

[squanch]

post 101784 Caffine? Sounds too simple but it's changed my life after 20 years of suffering.

post 101816 I am also having positive experiences with caffeine.

post 101817 I third the caffeine...I probably consume on average 600-1000mg per day. That's pretty excessive, though; it's also something that I've built up to over the course of a couple of years.

Did you guys notice any difference between caffeine from coffee, naturally extracted caffeine powder or synthetic caffeine powder?

 

[Brian]

Did you guys notice any difference between caffeine from coffee, naturally extracted caffeine powder or synthetic caffeine powder?

I've only had coffee a few times in my life when I was quite a bit younger, so it's hard to compare, but I remember coffee feeling very stimulating in a positive way. I've never tried natural isolated caffeine. My experience was the synthetic NutraKey caffeine did almost nothing, but NutraBio (which is also synthetic) had same day effects. So quality definitely varies. Those are the only two I've tried.

 

[ilovewriting]

post 101826

post 101784 Caffine? Sounds too simple but it's changed my life after 20 years of suffering.

post 101816 I am also having positive experiences with caffeine.

post 101817 I third the caffeine...I probably consume on average 600-1000mg per day. That's pretty excessive, though; it's also something that I've built up to over the course of a couple of years.

Did you guys notice any difference between caffeine from coffee, naturally extracted caffeine powder or synthetic caffeine powder?

coffee is much more than a caffeine
solution, and it has been demonstrated that many
physiological effects related to the intake of coffee are
absolutely independent of caffeine.

coffee constituents
other than caffeine are responsible for the
marked anti-carcinogenic effect of coffee...

A heavy intake of coffee reduced the
incidence of cirrhosis. Also, in this case, data have
shown that the effect is not due to caffeine, but rather to
other factors which probably include different ingredi-
ents of coffee and lifestyle factors correlated with coffee
consumption.

http://www.healtheiron.com/Websites/hea ... bjects.pdf

 

[Giraffe]

post 101809 All of this talk of insulin release and fructose can't stimulate insulin to even close to the degree as starches or glucose can etc...all very true, btw. But, in real world application, if the quantity has been accounted for and the calories are accounted for...IT DOESN'T MUCH MATTER...energy is energy and the same amount consumed is the same amount consumed

A calorie from starch is not the same as a calorie from orange juice. Ray Peat often talks about it in interviews. The orange juice raises the metabolism. This is the reason why you get hungry again much faster after eating fruit. (You described it in another thread.)

It's Rainmaking Time - Energy Protective Materials (June 14)
RP: I wrote a couple of articles on diabetes that talk about the effects of sugar in general and its ramifications and especially when it comes in the form of fruit, like orange juice, the minerals potassium for example, takes on the function of insulin, and so your body doesn't bother producing insulin. Because the orange juice is so easily metabolized without insulin, so it is not fattening the way if you get the same amount of sugar from starch. The starch is a powerful insulin stimulant and insulin tends to turn carbohydrates to fat.

And this is from his article Breast Cancer:

Starch strongly stimulates insulin secretion, and insulin stimulates the formation of estrogen.

Great if this is not a problem for you. For less healthy people it is a problem.

 

[tara]

post 101826

post 101784 Caffine? Sounds too simple but it's changed my life after 20 years of suffering.

post 101816 I am also having positive experiences with caffeine.

post 101817 I third the caffeine...I probably consume on average 600-1000mg per day. That's pretty excessive, though; it's also something that I've built up to over the course of a couple of years.

Did you guys notice any difference between caffeine from coffee, naturally extracted caffeine powder or synthetic caffeine powder?

I had been drinking what I thought was a cup of decaf instant coffee in the morning at work for a week or two before someone told me the label was wrong on the jar, and it was just regular (full caffeine). I noticed that I was much more outgoing, confident and sociable for that time. Unfortunately, it has it's down sides for me, but if it didn't, I'd be drinking it regularly.

So I fourth trying coffee, assuming you are eating enough first (otherwise it could be expected to cause more stress). Back off if it causes you trouble.

The only non-coffee caffeine I've tried is Haidut's solban, which I think may have some positive effect, and probably more even than drinking it.

 

[tara]

@DRTrenbolone
There is nothing in OPs post to suggest he is over-consuming. Until I he posts how much he is eating, I suspect from his food listing that it's more likely he is under-eating. I think there is evidence that some people (not everyone) in this forum and elsewhere do get into metabolic and other health trouble by chronic under-eating. In which case eating more is part of the solution, even if it means gaining some fat.
I agree with you that avoiding starches may not be serving him, unless he has had particular difficulty with them.

 

[DRTrenbolone]

post 101809 All of this talk of insulin release and fructose can't stimulate insulin to even close to the degree as starches or glucose can etc...all very true, btw. But, in real world application, if the quantity has been accounted for and the calories are accounted for...IT DOESN'T MUCH MATTER...energy is energy and the same amount consumed is the same amount consumed

A calorie from starch is not the same as a calorie from orange juice. Ray Peat often talks about it in interviews. The orange juice raises the metabolism. This is the reason why you get hungry again much faster after eating fruit. (You described it in another thread.)

It's Rainmaking Time - Energy Protective Materials (June 14)
RP: I wrote a couple of articles on diabetes that talk about the effects of sugar in general and its ramifications and especially when it comes in the form of fruit, like orange juice, the minerals potassium for example, takes on the function of insulin, and so your body doesn't bother producing insulin. Because the orange juice is so easily metabolized without insulin, so it is not fattening the way if you get the same amount of sugar from starch. The starch is a powerful insulin stimulant and insulin tends to turn carbohydrates to fat.

And this is from his article Breast Cancer:

Starch strongly stimulates insulin secretion, and insulin stimulates the formation of estrogen.

Great if this is not a problem for you. For less healthy people it is a problem.

I'm very busy studying right now, but I saw this felt as though I had to answer because you don't have a good understanding of basic nutritional sciences. I don't mean this as an insult, but rather you are taking snippets and soundbytes of RP with regards to hormonal responses to foods and implying certain real world result because of it. Insulin is not a bad hormone...it's very bizarre how you deem insulin as this evil, unnecessary hormone. It exists for good reason and it's secreted when it should be in healthy individuals. Assuming you do not have type I or II diabetes...you get the appropriate insulin response for the appropriate amount of food. Fructose does not elevate insulin because it's not necessary...it's handled directly in the liver, where as glucose is passed through the liver and into the blood stream, therefore insulin is necessary to bind to mediate it's effects via the Tyrosine Kinase mechanism in skeletal muscle cells and bring forth the GLUTs to the cell membrane in order to increase glucose uptake.

Fructose is taken care of in the liver, predominantly and some of it is DEFINITELY directly converted to triglycerides in the liver. It's 6 of 1 half a dozen of the other. Insulin shuts down lipolysis and increases glycogenesis, lipogenesis...but, so does fructose without the presence of insulin, directly in the liver. Again...at the end of the day energy is energy and a kilocalorie is a kilocalories. Not to mention, the pathway by which GLUCOSE can be directly converted to triglycerides and stored as such is called de novo lipogenesis and it's pretty rare in humans. Carbohydrates do not directly make you fat...eating a lot of carbohydrates and being in a calorie surplus indirectly makes you fat because basically any dietary fat eaten within that context is stored as such. For DNL to actually take place from starch/glucose, you would need to be in a strong calorie surplus, with skeletal muscle glycogen completely topped off and consume anywhere from 800+g of carbs in a day before your body started to actually converted glucose to triglycerides to any significant degree (DNL). So, if anything...starches have less propensity to become fat than fructose assuming the same gram amount of intake in the same dietary context. Still...it would come down to the calorie amount being consumed.

Additionally, you made a statement with regards to being hungry after eating mainly fruit (referencing one of my previous posts)...one of the MAJOR reasons for that is NOT increased metabolic rate...it's because fructose has very limited to nil affect towards leptin and leptin is a major hunger queing hormone. This is why by and large every knowledged nutritional scientist in the realm of dieting athletes will have an athlete carb up on starches and glucose before fructose as a means of increasing leptin more significantly and bringing hunger down to a manageable level...not to mention the propensity of starches and glucose to be stored as skeletal muscle glycogen (WITH THE HELP OF INSULIN) far easier than fructose can.

Fructose consumption results in the insulin-independent induction of several important hepatic lipogenic enzymes including pyruvate kinase, NADP+-dependent malate dehydrogenase, citrate lyase, acetyl CoA carboxylase, fatty acid synthase, as well as pyruvate dehydrogenase. Although not a consistent finding among metabolic feeding studies, high refined fructose diets have been shown to lead to hypertriglyceridemia in a wide range of populations including individuals with normal glucose metabolism as well as individuals with impaired glucose tolerance, diabetes, hypertriglyceridemia, and hypertension.

And...if you think that eating starches in the context of your individual carbohydrate and calorie needs results in some kind of considerable impact in estradiol, you're simply not speaking in terms of real science. Rather, you're speaking from a soundbyte that sounds good to the layman that you read from Dr. RP...who most likely means that in a very specific context.

 

[kaybb]

post 101826

post 101784 Caffine? Sounds too simple but it's changed my life after 20 years of suffering.

post 101816 I am also having positive experiences with caffeine.

post 101817 I third the caffeine...I probably consume on average 600-1000mg per day. That's pretty excessive, though; it's also something that I've built up to over the course of a couple of years.

Did you guys notice any difference between caffeine from coffee, naturally extracted caffeine powder or synthetic caffeine powder?

I started with pop, a cola 45mg. I worked up to one a day. Now I drink instant coffee from health food store. 1 1/2 teaspoons in a cup of liquid. Approx. 100mg. I add lots of milk&sugar. Haidut has written about making sure you eat enough ...very important..before having caffine and also throughout the day. I plan on continuing to increase slowly. I also take asprin, vitk to aid liver health.

 

[Giraffe]

post 101871I 'm very busy studying right now, but I saw this felt as though I had to answer because you don't have a good understanding of basic nutritional sciences.

Ray Peat disagrees with many "facts" that are thought "common knowledge" and thus gets to different conclusions. Don't tell me that I lack understanding in basic nutritional science because I cite him. This here is not any body building forum, but raypeatforum.

post 101871 it's because fructose has very limited to nil affect towards leptin and leptin is a major hunger queing hormone.

Preventing and treating cancer with progesterone

Leptin (which is promoted by estrogen) is a hormone produced by fat cells, and it, like estrogen, activates the POMC-related endorphin stress system. The endorphins activate histamine, another promoter of inflammation and cell division.

Progesterone opposes those various biochemical effects of estrogen in multiple ways, for example by inhibiting the ACTH stress response, by restraining cortisol's harmful actions, and by inhibiting leptin.

Pubmed search

Obese patients have high levels of circulating leptin due to increased fat mass.

Are obese people less hungry? So why don't they just eat less and lose weight? - I tell you why: They have an energy deficit despite their fat stores.

Leptin has long been associated with metabolism as it is a critical regulator of both food intake and energy expenditure, but recently, leptin dysregulation has been proposed as a mechanism of psychopathology. ... However, as anti-psychotics pharmacotherapy induces weight gain, which elevates leptin levels, drug-naïve populations are needed for further studies. Elevated circulating leptin is consistently found in childhood neurodevelopmental disorders including autism spectrum disorders and Rhett disorder.

Haidut has posted a couple of studies that describe the mess anti-psychotics cause.

post 101871 ...not to mention the propensity of starches and glucose to be stored as skeletal muscle glycogen (WITH THE HELP OF INSULIN) far easier than fructose can.

Many here have a hard time improving their liver glycogen stores... Read more here post 67324.

And by the way, there has been a study that compared a high-sucrose diet, a high-starch and a high-fat diet.

The increased energy expenditure observed on the sucrose-rich diet can probably be explained both by the increased intake of energy and fructose (mainly from sucrose) on this diet.

 

[squanch]

Thanks for the replies. I think I will try to mix some strong coffee into my yerba mate to get the caffeine slowly up to around 600mg - 800mg per day.

Also danny just posted this on facebook:

"Coffee is much more than a caffeine solution..."

“More than 90% of the research carried out on the physiological properties of coffee has been devoted to caffeine. However, coffee is much more than a caffeine solution, and it has been demonstrated that many physiological effects related to the intake of coffee are absolutely independent of caffeine.”

“These authors demonstrated that coffee constituents other than caffeine are responsible for the marked anti-carcinogenic effect of coffee, and their results confirmed the importance of coffee in the chemoprevention of environmental carcinogenesis.”

“A heavy intake of coffee reduced the incidence of cirrhosis. Also, in this case, data have shown that the effect is not due to caffeine, but rather to other factors which probably include different ingredients of coffee and lifestyle factors correlated with coffee consumption.”—Moderate coffee consumption increases plasma glutathione but not homocysteine in healthy subjects (2003)

 

[ilovewriting]

post 102047 Thanks for the replies. I think I will try to mix some strong coffee into my yerba mate to get the caffeine slowly up to around 600mg - 800mg per day.

Also danny just posted this on facebook:

"Coffee is much more than a caffeine solution..."

Hi Danny! Thanks for your blog. Seems you may be reading here!
[url=https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7936&p=102047#p101832]viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7936&p=102047#p101832

coffee is much more than a caffeine
solution, and it has been demonstrated that many
physiological effects related to the intake of coffee are
absolutely independent of caffeine.

 

[Coldhandsandfeet]

Pulse is 80 temp is 96.0. Can't get temp up even with thyroid

 

[paymanz]

i had good experience with taurine, give it a try may help you.also mega dosing thiamine worked for me...

 

[Coldhandsandfeet]

heres my diet:

 

[Joocy_J]

post 102570 heres my diet:

eat less fat and up the carbs: 50% carbs, 25 protein, 25 fat

 

[Matt1951]

96F is definitely hypothyroid. You need a better doctor to help with thyroid medication.
Substitute orange juice for the orange juice drink. Add some carrot.
Protein amount may be too high when you are hypothyroid.
Total calories looks good. Fat and carbs look good.

 

[Kasper]

I would feel miserable with that diet. But that is because I can't handle so much sugar. I do much better with potatoes. I would substitute all the coke coke/orange juice/ice cream, for potatoes.

But yeah, you are not me. Maybe you have no problems with sugar.

 

[Coldhandsandfeet]

96F is definitely hypothyroid. You need a better doctor to help with thyroid medication.
Substitute orange juice for the orange juice drink. Add some carrot.
Protein amount may be too high when you are hypothyroid.
Total calories looks good. Fat and carbs look good.

i'm using reg OJ. he's actually a really good doctor, things just need time, i guess. He's helped lots of people.

thanks for the input.

 

[onioneyedox]

Hi, you seem to have similar problems as I. So I write here some suggestions or thoughts. I'm by no means over my problems, but been getting better very slowly over the last years. So digest and judge these to your situation. I might be totally wrong on something. This is not science here.

About food, just eat. You know, better to avoid constant fried pufa and oily stuff. Eating salty starch in the evening seems to be warming, pizza, crackers, potatoes. Maybe avoid cold drinks, especially if you are not yet very warm for the day (I get warmer in the evening). You probably know if you have not eaten enough, you over indulge on next meal. Or you get cold hands after they were warm. I'm not sure if you are overwweight, if not I wouldn't worry about overeating at this time. I don't think the food to be the silver bullet of health. As you know there are many ways people are eating and doing ok and good. Try to include the good stuff normally (normal relation to you), eggs, liver, oysters, if you can.

In the mornings, or as long as you need, wear warm clothes around your core until you get warm (I like something like this http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GF1VI4/?tag=rapefo-20), something that is easily removable if you are too warm. When core gets warmer hands and feet also get better. Losing warmth is bit similar like losing CO2 you need it but if you are not making enough, you need to preserve it. make sure to no lose much heat through feet (dont sit on computer and keep your bare feet on cold stone floor).

Meditation might be good. You know thinking, well not thinking, but contemplating about your life and you get insights. You may need accept what ever situation you are. I don't wan't to preach or anything (and i don't have the words, lol), and I'm really saying this to myself as well, but you know everyone has their individual situations and resources and comparing yourself to others is pointless, as if they were you they be in exactly same situation. It is uderstandaple and accettaple that the situations is what it is. You have to get inpired on your own and realize that life can be good, that there is hope. Be kind to yourself.

Try playing and listening music, dancing, daily walks in nature. Training as you feel fit (I like Pavel Tsatsouline's stuff, basicly don't train so much that it burns, max 5 reps; old soviet stuff). Not expert on training though, unlike everyone else on internet, haha.

When you find some good momentun or even spark you need to try and preserve it. You can lose it by many ways that are not always clear and even same. Sametimes same thing can be good sometimes not. Meditation can help on this regard too. You know, over training, not doing anything (haha, don't we all know), masturbating, doing wrong things. Staying up late so long that you get sleepy might be big one. When you get sleepy, you sort of become unfocused and your energy gets uncoherent that is harder to replenish. You wake up feeling like sht and cant get up and have lost all motivation and need to regain it. Also good sleep needs energy so don't sleep too long. I don't believe you should need more than 9 hours (probably less), any longer and you are probably sleeping because you have no reason to get up. And this further depletes your energy, you start sort of hibernating mentally and even your body slows down. Ideally you should be sleep between 10or10:30pm-02am (ayurvedic belief) for deep sleep cycles and after that as long as you need. I believe that the energy we often experience during evening and especially at that 10-02 time is meant for deep sleep, to cleanse and repair. When you energy and mood is good you should be able to fall sleep even though you are not "sleepy". When sleep is good you sustain your motivation.

I would recommend you test Haidut's Pansterone, if you have no trouble with experimentation. Effect should be very noticeable even on first day. I do about 8-12 drops a day which seems to be sufficient you might need even less. About other supplements, I don't know, pregnenolone or NDT neither of those really helped me. Maybe LSD or shrooms...

Ok just relax, be patient and know that there is a way. I hope this helps, sorry it is kind of ramble.

 

[Coldhandsandfeet]

post 102620 Hi, you seem to have similar problems as I. So I write here some suggestions or thoughts. I'm by no means over my problems, but been getting better very slowly over the last years. So digest and judge these to your situation. I might be totally wrong on something. This is not science here.

About food, just eat. You know, better to avoid constant fried pufa and oily stuff. Eating salty starch in the evening seems to be warming, pizza, crackers, potatoes. Maybe avoid cold drinks, especially if you are not yet very warm for the day (I get warmer in the evening). You probably know if you have not eaten enough, you over indulge on next meal. Or you get cold hands after they were warm. I'm not sure if you are overwweight, if not I wouldn't worry about overeating at this time. I don't think the food to be the silver bullet of health. As you know there are many ways people are eating and doing ok and good. Try to include the good stuff normally (normal relation to you), eggs, liver, oysters, if you can.

In the mornings, or as long as you need, wear warm clothes around your core until you get warm (I like something like this http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GF1VI4/?tag=rapefo-20), something that is easily removable if you are too warm. When core gets warmer hands and feet also get better. Losing warmth is bit similar like losing CO2 you need it but if you are not making enough, you need to preserve it. make sure to no lose much heat through feet (dont sit on computer and keep your bare feet on cold stone floor).

Meditation might be good. You know thinking, well not thinking, but contemplating about your life and you get insights. You may need accept what ever situation you are. I don't wan't to preach or anything (and i don't have the words, lol), and I'm really saying this to myself as well, but you know everyone has their individual situations and resources and comparing yourself to others is pointless, as if they were you they be in exactly same situation. It is uderstandaple and accettaple that the situations is what it is. You have to get inpired on your own and realize that life can be good, that there is hope. Be kind to yourself.

Try playing and listening music, dancing, daily walks in nature. Training as you feel fit (I like Pavel Tsatsouline's stuff, basicly don't train so much that it burns, max 5 reps; old soviet stuff). Not expert on training though, unlike everyone else on internet, haha.

When you find some good momentun or even spark you need to try and preserve it. You can lose it by many ways that are not always clear and even same. Sametimes same thing can be good sometimes not. Meditation can help on this regard too. You know, over training, not doing anything (haha, don't we all know), masturbating, doing wrong things. Staying up late so long that you get sleepy might be big one. When you get sleepy, you sort of become unfocused and your energy gets uncoherent that is harder to replenish. You wake up feeling like sht and cant get up and have lost all motivation and need to regain it. Also good sleep needs energy so don't sleep too long. I don't believe you should need more than 9 hours (probably less), any longer and you are probably sleeping because you have no reason to get up. And this further depletes your energy, you start sort of hibernating mentally and even your body slows down. Ideally you should be sleep between 10or10:30pm-02am (ayurvedic belief) for deep sleep cycles and after that as long as you need. I believe that the energy we often experience during evening and especially at that 10-02 time is meant for deep sleep, to cleanse and repair. When you energy and mood is good you should be able to fall sleep even though you are not "sleepy". When sleep is good you sustain your motivation.

I would recommend you test Haidut's Pansterone, if you have no trouble with experimentation. Effect should be very noticeable even on first day. I do about 8-12 drops a day which seems to be sufficient you might need even less. About other supplements, I don't know, pregnenolone or NDT neither of those really helped me. Maybe LSD or shrooms...

Ok just relax, be patient and know that there is a way. I hope this helps, sorry it is kind of ramble.

thanks :)