WARNING: CO2-related Death

[Nokoni]

tanning bed

The panel was 20 bucks or so.

 

[CLASH]

Hey all I reread my original post and realized I forgot to add something. The exchange of PO2 at the lungs with RBC's is the Haldane effect. The Bohr effect is at the cells. Haldane describes O2, Bohr describes CO2. The mechanisms I posted stand, just the naming was a little messed up.

To @alywest, a few things in response:
I would say hypothyroidism is a product of higher serotonin and lactic acid not the other way around. I think that hypothyroidism is caused by some type of inflammatory stimulus (the stress hormones estrogen, serotonin, prolactin, nitric oxide, histamine are indicators of this inflammatory stimulus) caused by either
a) nutrient deficiency
b) damage to the mitochondria/ body via toxins:
i. plant toxin
ii. PUFA
iii. endotoxin (gut issue)
c) infection
d) stress:
i. sleep
ii. people/ relationships
iii. job/ purpose

If all of these things are taken care, I think over time the thyroid will come back online. No matter how much thyroid hormone, other hormones or substances you take besides perhaps some nutrients, I don't think that any progress will be made towards fixing the bodies own thyroid production and thus true underlying problem unless these are addressed. Everything done not addressing the underlying issues is just symptoms management, or shortchanging some pathway in the body to help mitigate the effect of the "stress". Thus, I don't think bag breathing is really an answer, just a bandaid. Baking soda and eggshells are slightly different as they provide nutrition, but the real answer is to address the underlying issue as opposed to trying to bandage every leak in the system. I think the body is remarkably plastic and can heal itself and can manage its own balance if provided with the right context. The thing to keep in mind is if the body has been running on these back up systems (stress hormones) for decades than it is most likely going to take some time to turn the tide. The way I get the sense of the body working is in sort of snowball effect at a fulcrum of positivity or negativity, in which it either snowballs in a positive direction or negative direction depending on the context you provide for it. So you can either increase your metabolism, and hence your structure which allows for greater increases in metabolism (probably endless development if we think past our own lifetimes) or you can run on stress hormones and essentially back up systems that lower energy production to avoid utilizing all of the resources available i.e. the bodies structure.

With all this in mind, I would say don't worry about bag breathing or eggshells to increase CO2, I don't think its the same as producing CO2 at the cellular level. I would focus on looking for a latent infection, a gut infection, a delayed sensitivity allergy, nutrient deficiencies, toxins in the diet (vegetables, grains, nuts, seeds, legumes, PUFA), lack of enough sugar- protein- fat, lack of proper sleep, stress levels from job and people. If these are addressed and with some time I think most people can turn the table on their health (although I know its definitely not easy).

Also, somewhat tangential, but in line with this post, I have read the forum for a few years now without participating and I see the common issues that people have with Peats protocol and a lot of them, seem to me, to be gut related issues. I know it isn't 100% in line with Peat but I think that the micro biome stuff that is coming out has a lot of relevance to the Peat community and may be the missing link for most people (I don't mean this in sense that we should be eating raw potato starch so that we can increase our clostridia bacteria and butyrate, I mean this more in the sense that peoples flora needs to match the food that their eating i.e if you have klebsiella in your colon, I don't care how much milk you drink your not going to be doing too well). I'm still experimenting with it myself, but I wanted to put that out there for other people to perhaps start giving the area some thought, and perhaps increase some of the discussion in this area.

 

[Drareg]

Nice. The more Georgi( Haidut) hangs out amongst the sick patients and hospital data the more he understands that all people have different imbalances. Now agreement with Peat at 70%, in 1 -2 years it will be 30%. Since Peat covers only one imbalance. Maximum energy and maximum health is achieved when the PHs are balanced inside and outside of the cell. There is no good this or bad that. There is a balance.

And for some this balance can be achieved by going more alkaline and for others going more acidic. And it is not as easy as drinking alkaline or acidic water. It is all about fixing your imbalance or at least support that imbalances which forces your body to use the buffer to fight that PH imbalance

That is why for some people Calcium is not good, niacianimide not good, aspirin is death. CO2 is a disaster.

For some people who are in resp alkalosis CO2 is anti siezure since it will increase ionized calcium. In some people with Co2 retention problems, CO2 will cause seizures, and it will cause death since it will cause hypokalemia.

It is so so crazy to talk about CO2 good or bad for everyone. this is simple anesthesiology . I will never understand why people still discuss this stuff instead of just reading one anesthesiology book and be really clear how this all works.

No Peat doesn’t cover one imbalance but it’s great you keep posting your complete lack of understanding of Peat,it’s like copy and paste from Wilson’s website.
There is no such thing as balance,nobody or any particular organ are balanced. The context of the environment relevant on top of this,even while sleeping your not balanced,it’s an impossibility. Living is about being imbalanced.
People make these arguments as a cop out when they are being found out.
Gbolduev posts studies of people with issues with co2 who are have severe COPD from hard core smoking on top taking of several antidepressants and uses this as an example for healthy people.

Fix one imbalance with your logic and then we will have another imbalance,cherry picked imbalances preferably anything not inline with Peat.

 

[paymanz]

For god sake someone tell me what is the resource for"potassium activates thyroid in cell"?!!

Where I can read more about this?

 

[alywest]

The panel was 20 bucks or so.

link please

 

[InChristAlone]

I don't totally understand how the body can be high in bicarbonate if one is hypothyroid. Would you respond to the following quote from Peat and tell me if you think it jibes with what Gbolduev is saying:

“Calcitonin, vitamin D-active metabolite, and estrogen-”HRT” treaments can cause respiratory alkalosis (relative hyperventilation), and hypothyroidism produces a predisposition to hyperventilation. Hyperventilation tends to cause calcium loss. In respiratory alkalolis, CO2 (and sometimes bicarbonate) are decreased, impairing calcium retention, and in “metabolic alkalosis,” with increased bicarbonate, calcium is retained more efficiently and bone formation is stimulated, and its dissolution is suppressed.” -Ray Peat, PhD

Actually it sounds to me like Peat understands it better. And yes CO2 is helpful during hyperventilation, I know because I've had many panic attacks and used to suffer from air hunger quite frequently the only solution was to calmly do nasal breathing, including taping my mouth at night. It might not be a cure, but it helped me get out of the constant stress reactions thus leading me to heal. But I think the biggest way I healed was to quit the caffeinated beverages which were causing anxiety which leads to shallow breathing/tension. Energy needs to flow.

 

[Nokoni]

link please

225 Ultrathin LED Grow Panel Light SMD Plant Lamp All Red Hydro Garden Lighting | eBay

 

[alywest]

Hey all I reread my original post and realized I forgot to add something. The exchange of PO2 at the lungs with RBC's is the Haldane effect. The Bohr effect is at the cells. Haldane describes O2, Bohr describes CO2. The mechanisms I posted stand, just the naming was a little messed up.

To @alywest, a few things in response:
I would say hypothyroidism is a product of higher serotonin and lactic acid not the other way around. I think that hypothyroidism is caused by some type of inflammatory stimulus (the stress hormones estrogen, serotonin, prolactin, nitric oxide, histamine are indicators of this inflammatory stimulus) caused by either
a) nutrient deficiency
b) damage to the mitochondria/ body via toxins:
i. plant toxin
ii. PUFA
iii. endotoxin (gut issue)
c) infection
d) stress:
i. sleep
ii. people/ relationships
iii. job/ purpose

If all of these things are taken care, I think over time the thyroid will come back online. No matter how much thyroid hormone, other hormones or substances you take besides perhaps some nutrients, I don't think that any progress will be made towards fixing the bodies own thyroid production and thus true underlying problem unless these are addressed. Everything done not addressing the underlying issues is just symptoms management, or shortchanging some pathway in the body to help mitigate the effect of the "stress". Thus, I don't think bag breathing is really an answer, just a bandaid. Baking soda and eggshells are slightly different as they provide nutrition, but the real answer is to address the underlying issue as opposed to trying to bandage every leak in the system. I think the body is remarkably plastic and can heal itself and can manage its own balance if provided with the right context. The thing to keep in mind is if the body has been running on these back up systems (stress hormones) for decades than it is most likely going to take some time to turn the tide. The way I get the sense of the body working is in sort of snowball effect at a fulcrum of positivity or negativity, in which it either snowballs in a positive direction or negative direction depending on the context you provide for it. So you can either increase your metabolism, and hence your structure which allows for greater increases in metabolism (probably endless development if we think past our own lifetimes) or you can run on stress hormones and essentially back up systems that lower energy production to avoid utilizing all of the resources available i.e. the bodies structure.

With all this in mind, I would say don't worry about bag breathing or eggshells to increase CO2, I don't think its the same as producing CO2 at the cellular level. I would focus on looking for a latent infection, a gut infection, a delayed sensitivity allergy, nutrient deficiencies, toxins in the diet (vegetables, grains, nuts, seeds, legumes, PUFA), lack of enough sugar- protein- fat, lack of proper sleep, stress levels from job and people. If these are addressed and with some time I think most people can turn the table on their health (although I know its definitely not easy).

Also, somewhat tangential, but in line with this post, I have read the forum for a few years now without participating and I see the common issues that people have with Peats protocol and a lot of them, seem to me, to be gut related issues. I know it isn't 100% in line with Peat but I think that the micro biome stuff that is coming out has a lot of relevance to the Peat community and may be the missing link for most people (I don't mean this in sense that we should be eating raw potato starch so that we can increase our clostridia bacteria and butyrate, I mean this more in the sense that peoples flora needs to match the food that their eating i.e if you have klebsiella in your colon, I don't care how much milk you drink your not going to be doing too well). I'm still experimenting with it myself, but I wanted to put that out there for other people to perhaps start giving the area some thought, and perhaps increase some of the discussion in this area.

Thank you for the really in-depth response. I definitely agree that the micro-biome seems to be what most people are looking at right now but I tend to disagree, maybe because it just seems too complicated. But Peat discusses that trying to balance out the bacteria in the gut would be nearly impossible, instead it's better to attempt to keep the Small Intestine as free of bacteria as possible, and worry more about removing endotoxin. But also, like in the case of yeast infections or candida, he says that simply depriving them of sugar is going to force the organism to release even more toxic message signals to try to obtain more sugar.

I definitely agree with the majority of what you stated, though, if there are issues with stress, diet, etc. there is no supplement that is going to fix the underlying issue. I think some people here are really wondering if Gbolduev could possibly be right in his assertion that hypothyroid folks are actually high in bicarbonate. That seems contradictory to the evidence. And while I agree, bag breathing is a temporary fix, I do think that it can be necessary when a hypothyroid person is hyperventilating, which is something that can happen all too frequently.

 

[Drareg]

Has anyone tried agmatine for your breathing complaints?

 

[alywest]

225 Ultrathin LED Grow Panel Light SMD Plant Lamp All Red Hydro Garden Lighting | eBay

 

[paymanz]

Hey all I reread my original post and realized I forgot to add something. The exchange of PO2 at the lungs with RBC's is the Haldane effect. The Bohr effect is at the cells. Haldane describes O2, Bohr describes CO2. The mechanisms I posted stand, just the naming was a little messed up.

To @alywest, a few things in response:
I would say hypothyroidism is a product of higher serotonin and lactic acid not the other way around. I think that hypothyroidism is caused by some type of inflammatory stimulus (the stress hormones estrogen, serotonin, prolactin, nitric oxide, histamine are indicators of this inflammatory stimulus) caused by either
a) nutrient deficiency
b) damage to the mitochondria/ body via toxins:
i. plant toxin
ii. PUFA
iii. endotoxin (gut issue)
c) infection
d) stress:
i. sleep
ii. people/ relationships
iii. job/ purpose

If all of these things are taken care, I think over time the thyroid will come back online. No matter how much thyroid hormone, other hormones or substances you take besides perhaps some nutrients, I don't think that any progress will be made towards fixing the bodies own thyroid production and thus true underlying problem unless these are addressed. Everything done not addressing the underlying issues is just symptoms management, or shortchanging some pathway in the body to help mitigate the effect of the "stress". Thus, I don't think bag breathing is really an answer, just a bandaid. Baking soda and eggshells are slightly different as they provide nutrition, but the real answer is to address the underlying issue as opposed to trying to bandage every leak in the system. I think the body is remarkably plastic and can heal itself and can manage its own balance if provided with the right context. The thing to keep in mind is if the body has been running on these back up systems (stress hormones) for decades than it is most likely going to take some time to turn the tide. The way I get the sense of the body working is in sort of snowball effect at a fulcrum of positivity or negativity, in which it either snowballs in a positive direction or negative direction depending on the context you provide for it. So you can either increase your metabolism, and hence your structure which allows for greater increases in metabolism (probably endless development if we think past our own lifetimes) or you can run on stress hormones and essentially back up systems that lower energy production to avoid utilizing all of the resources available i.e. the bodies structure.

With all this in mind, I would say don't worry about bag breathing or eggshells to increase CO2, I don't think its the same as producing CO2 at the cellular level. I would focus on looking for a latent infection, a gut infection, a delayed sensitivity allergy, nutrient deficiencies, toxins in the diet (vegetables, grains, nuts, seeds, legumes, PUFA), lack of enough sugar- protein- fat, lack of proper sleep, stress levels from job and people. If these are addressed and with some time I think most people can turn the table on their health (although I know its definitely not easy).

Also, somewhat tangential, but in line with this post, I have read the forum for a few years now without participating and I see the common issues that people have with Peats protocol and a lot of them, seem to me, to be gut related issues. I know it isn't 100% in line with Peat but I think that the micro biome stuff that is coming out has a lot of relevance to the Peat community and may be the missing link for most people (I don't mean this in sense that we should be eating raw potato starch so that we can increase our clostridia bacteria and butyrate, I mean this more in the sense that peoples flora needs to match the food that their eating i.e if you have klebsiella in your colon, I don't care how much milk you drink your not going to be doing too well). I'm still experimenting with it myself, but I wanted to put that out there for other people to perhaps start giving the area some thought, and perhaps increase some of the discussion in this area.

Yes your view is good,stress and everything.

Your mind can dictate how body work and also you biochemistry can dictate how you feel and how you think.

But biochemistry is probably more determinative.

But ,idk. It is so confusing! Complicated.

"Adopting the right attitude can convert a negative stress into a positive one.". -Hans Selye

 

[alywest]

agmatine

hmmmm, interesting....

 

[paymanz]

And I just want remind you what ray thinks about co2,


"I think carbon dioxide is really what oxygen is being used for[...]I think it's what really creating the structure of the cell, maintains the gel in the living state and makes the energy hard to deplete."


It is deep view and understanding, when you look at the symbiotic of plants with other beings on the planet earth.

 

[alywest]

Actually it sounds to me like Peat understands it better. And yes CO2 is helpful during hyperventilation, I know because I've had many panic attacks and used to suffer from air hunger quite frequently the only solution was to calmly do nasal breathing, including taping my mouth at night. It might not be a cure, but it helped me get out of the constant stress reactions thus leading me to heal. But I think the biggest way I healed was to quit the caffeinated beverages which were causing anxiety which leads to shallow breathing/tension. Energy needs to flow.

I've been there, too, the panic attacks are scary and you sometimes need the quick fix of CO2. I think the calcium bit is really interesting, too, especially as a woman as we are automatically higher in estrogen and more prone to osteoporosis.

 

[CLASH]

@paymanz I agree with you, there is definetly top down (mind organizing tissue) and bottom up (metabolism increasing organization of mind). I think they go together synergistically in an exponentially forward fashion. The complicated part is determining which one works first in a sequential fashion but I don't think it matters.

@alywest I am aware with Peats views and I agree with both you and him. I am not saying to micromanage and balance the microbiome. I have looked into it, not really achievable with industrially probiotics and prebiotis from what I can see. But in looking into it I found a really simple solution. The original organizer of the human microbiome is breast milk or the next best things raw goats milk and raw goat kefir. Milk is designed to create the microbiome, it is anti-bacterial and also supports the growth of specific bacteria. Kefir is basically a probiotic of bacteria that can survive on milk, which I assume to mean that they are probably hospitable with the human microbiome. Thus, in order to create the microbiome that we adapted to (im assuming we adapted to it since its what were provided when where infants/children) and one that matches the food that we are going to eat (dairy products, fruit sugar, honey and some meat if your incorporating peats principles) then we might as well essentially re-breast feed ourselves and establish our innate flora, that also happens to be the one that optimally digests milk... its a wonderful coincidence that our innate flora seems to be adapted towards digesting milk and that milk, from this context, seems to be an ideal food...

Also coincidently, yet again somewhat tangentially, the bacteria of our innate flora that grow in milk conjugate PUFA (they saturate PUFA), also the lactic acid produced by these bacteria (a negative in peats view) actually goes to cross feed butyrate producing bacteria so, I would venture to project that we aren't getting as much lactic acid as we think. Lastly, its interesting that lactic acid bacteria support butyrate producers in the colon, it would mean that for colonic health possibly no fiber would be needed if dairy was eaten (our digestive system is suited towards absorption not fermentation i.e. Larger small intestine, less colon). Also, calcium protects the colon from colon cancer with vit D, and from bile acids (both are components of milk). It seems that RAW milk (A2 over A1, theres some studies on the difference in humans with inflammatory markers) is really the ideal microbiome producer. Not vegetables, fibers, legumes, etc. This in conjunction with evolutionary trends showing a decrease in digestive tract size with an increase brain size and an increase in nutrient and energy dense food requirements as brain size increases would go to support Peats no fiber, easily absorbed diet based around milk, meats (shellfish, organ meat), saturated fats, juices without fiber, honey and sucrose. Also, conincidentally the only foods manufactured by nature for other organism to truelly eat are fruit, honey and dairy.... They also happen to be specifically mentioned throughout time in numerous ancient text i.e. The Bible, ayuverda etc.

 

[haidut]

The more Georgi( Haidut) hangs out amongst the sick patients and hospital data the more he understands that all people have different imbalances. Now agreement with Peat at 70%, in 1 -2 years it will be 30%

Well, actually in a few years it may be higher as I started as only 10% Peat I came from heavy and very negative Paleo experience and Peating/experimenting is what got me better. Cyproheptadine and niacinamide did wonders for me.
Have you thought (or posted anywhere) about how the acid/base balance links with the redox balance? I mentioned in a few other posts that one of Peat's main messages is that all chronic diseases are characterized by reductive stress (i.e. low NAD and high NADH). The only way to endogenously (without taking niacinamide) raise NAD and lower NADH is by increasing oxygen consumption and thus metabolism. I asked if any of the "natural" metabolic types you mention is characterized by low NAD and high NADH and if you think that metabolic type is actually healthy. Maybe those types you mention are just the most common states of maldaptation people under stress and poor diet end up in. Does not mean we should continue supporting that maldaptation and keep them there.
Anyways, just curious about your take on how redox balance fits into your framework.

 

[alywest]

@paymanz I agree with you, there is definetly top down (mind organizing tissue) and bottom up (metabolism increasing organization of mind). I think they go together synergistically in an exponentially forward fashion. The complicated part is determining which one works first in a sequential fashion but I don't think it matters.

@alywest I am aware with Peats views and I agree with both you and him. I am not saying to micromanage and balance the microbiome. I have looked into it, not really achievable with industrially probiotics and prebiotis from what I can see. But in looking into it I found a really simple solution. The original organizer of the human microbiome is breast milk or the next best things raw goats milk and raw goat kefir. Milk is designed to create the microbiome, it is anti-bacterial and also supports the growth of specific bacteria. Kefir is basically a probiotic of bacteria that can survive on milk, which I assume to mean that they are probably hospitable with the human microbiome. Thus, in order to create the microbiome that we adapted to (im assuming we adapted to it since its what were provided when where infants/children) and one that matches the food that we are going to eat (dairy products, fruit sugar, honey and some meat if your incorporating peats principles) then we might as well essentially re-breast feed ourselves and establish our innate flora, that also happens to be the one that optimally digests milk... its a wonderful coincidence that our innate flora seems to be adapted towards digesting milk and that milk, from this context, seems to be an ideal food...

Also coincidently, yet again somewhat tangentially, the bacteria of our innate flora that grow in milk conjugate PUFA (they saturate PUFA), also the lactic acid produced by these bacteria (a negative in peats view) actually goes to cross feed butyrate producing bacteria so, I would venture to project that we aren't getting as much lactic acid as we think. Lastly, its interesting that lactic acid bacteria support butyrate producers in the colon, it would mean that for colonic health possibly no fiber would be needed if dairy was eaten (our digestive system is suited towards absorption not fermentation i.e. Larger small intestine, less colon). Also, calcium protects the colon from colon cancer with vit D, and from bile acids (both are components of milk). It seems that RAW milk (A2 over A1, theres some studies on the difference in humans with inflammatory markers) is really the ideal microbiome producer. Not vegetables, fibers, legumes, etc. This in conjunction with evolutionary trends showing a decrease in digestive tract size with an increase brain size and an increase in nutrient and energy dense food requirements as brain size increases would go to support Peats no fiber, easily absorbed diet based around milk, meats (shellfish, organ meat), saturated fats, juices without fiber, honey and sucrose. Also, conincidentally the only foods manufactured by nature for other organism to truelly eat are fruit, honey and dairy.... They also happen to be specifically mentioned throughout time in numerous ancient text i.e. The Bible, ayuverda etc.

OK, that's really interesting. Definitely a new perspective on Peat and dairy in general. Thanks!

 

[alywest]

Has anyone tried agmatine for your breathing complaints?

how much would you recommend?

 

[ken]

Ray has talked about getting in a big trash bag filled with CO2.

 

[tastyfood]

View attachment 6728

Lol