why is CO2 important?

[Blossom]

In studying Peat it becomes apparent that he puts great value on the healing and restorative properties of CO2. I have come from a background where CO2 is regarded as a metabolic waste and poison. This is such a shame because countless times I have witnessed people suffer and even die when their CO2 was rapidly and artificially lowered by inappropriate medical interventions. I suppose that is one reason I embraced Peat's views on this topic so wholeheartedly.
Our bodies tightly regulate CO2 within a narrow range unless we do something to increase the natural set point. I have seen much suffering in relation to decreased CO2 while I've never seen that with increased CO2. In fact, if you talk with any decent hospice nurse they will tell you it is a very comfortable way to die. I do not think this is the cause of death but an adaptive response of the body as a protective mechanism. What I feel is meant by this is that when a person nears the end and the breathing is dramatically slowed down and it is quite relaxing plus CO2 narcosis gives a feeling of peace.
When Peat advocates various measures to increase the CO2 I think this is to elevate our set point and allow us to retain more of this regenerative substance. I do believe each session of bag breathing or buteyko is helpful but I also think the cumulative effect of regular practice readjusts our internal setting. When I bring up bag breathing it is because I think it is easy to forget this or take it for granted. Our breathing is under both our conscious and unconscious control so by consciously getting more CO2 I feel we can influence what happens when we aren't paying attention to our breathing.

 

[j.]

It sounds like it wouldn't be hard to verify whether a set point can be changed. Do a bunch of bag breathing, then a CO2 blood test.

 

[Blossom]

Yes j that sounds great. Maybe I should test myself? I'm not sure what my prior baseline was though. I've often wondered if I would have to run for my life if they tested me, I'm sure my CO2 is higher than the medical establishment would approve of!

 

[Blossom]

From Leakiness,aging and cancer May 2005
Ray Peat wrote

Hyperventilation decreases carbon dioxide and increases serotonin and histamine. Carbon dioxide itself is an essential factor in regulating the state of cellular electrons and maintaining cellular integrity. Hyperventilation, like the shift from oxidative to glycolic energy production that typifies estrogenized or stressed cells or cancer, raises intracellular pH. In the case of mast cells, increasing alkalinity causes them to release histamine but similar "alkaline induced exocytosis" seems to occur in all stressed tissues. Since histamine is formed by decarboxylation of histadine the presence of carbon dioxide in a cell would tend to restrain the reaction, by mass action.

 

[charlie]

[img=center]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6-Y365_8GoI/US0BiHI4ivI/AAAAAAAAhbg/0874nSfOqTA/s209/iloveco2_logo_250d.png[/img]

 

[Blossom]

From Estrogen, calcium, heavy metals and nerve degeneration February 2001 page 2

Ray wrote: Simply lowering the pH is highly protective against oxidative attack by metals, and this is partly because the electrons of the sulfhydryl groups are less accessible to the oxidants in an acidic environment. The formation of carbon dioxide is the fundamental process for keeping mitochondrial pH low.

This is a timeless classic from Peat. Some things never change.

 

[Blossom]

When our cellular respiration is optimized our endogenous CO2 production is optimized. While measures such as bag breathing and buteyko work from the outside in, most of the protective CO2 in our body is directly produced in our mitochondria. Here is another gem from Peat on the topic of CO2 from Estrogen, aging, radiation, migraine and energy. Ray wrote

Carbon dioxide produced in the high energy state provides direct protection of protein structure against random chemical changes. These protective effects occur within cells, between cells, and in extracellular "ground substance" or matrix, in which cells are embedded. Thyroid and progesterone support CO2's protective effects."

 

[charlie]

Really digging this thread. Thank you, Blossom.

 

[Blossom]

Thanks, I just thought it would be cool to add Peaty things on CO2 as I came across them for all to enjoy!

 

[Blossom]

From Mitochondria and Mortality

Ray wrote:
When the background of CO2 is high, circulation and oxygenation tend to prevent anaerobic glycolysis that produces toxic lactic acid, so that a given level of activity will be harmful or helpful, depending on the level of carbon dioxide being produced at rest.

 

[j.]

I have seen much suffering in relation to decreased CO2 while I've never seen that with increased CO2. In fact, if you talk with any decent hospice nurse they will tell you it is a very comfortable way to die. I do not think this is the cause of death but an adaptive response of the body as a protective mechanism.

Imagine what progesterone combined with carbon dioxide would do. Progesterone enhances the effects of carbon dioxide, and it also has its own sedative effects.

 

[Blossom]

I think that everyday. Progesterone used to be used as a treatment for emphysema. Ray has written a bit about this but I don't remember the source off the top of my head. I'm slacking today. I think I'm being briefly but intensely stimulated by estrogen!

 

[Blossom]

From Bioelectric Fields, Regeneration, and the Lactic Acid Myth
Ray wrote

Carbon dioxide produced by respiration, and ATP hydrolysis, are two powerful acidifiers of the cell; with sufficient stimulation both can probably act simultaneously, and in this situation the pH decrease will tend to oppose the exciting stimulus. Without sufficient oxygen to make carbon dioxide, a given stimulus might cause greater excitation and probability of death. The insufficiency of oxygen also leads to a relatively reduced state of cytoplasmic proteins, increasing their electrical charge at a given pH. Carbon dioxide has many other effects that act in the same protective direction, such as calcium removal, iron binding, and water binding, and these other effects are at least as important as the pH effect. (Badylak and Babbs, 1986 showed that the combination of a calcium blocker and an iron chelation with CO2 tripled the survival after 7 minutes of cardiac arrest). Adequate carbon dioxide is intimately involved in the disposition of calcium , and calcium's regulatory significance is universally recognized.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

How can one test their CO2 levels and what is a good level to have?

 

[Dan W]

You can get a CO2 blood test, they just draw a sample and send you the results. The cheapest I've found (in the US) is from TrueHealthLabs, unless you can get a doctor to order it. I've heard 30mmol/L as a good number to shoot for.

 

[gbolduev]

I disagree completely with Peat and his conclusions. It seems he writes what worked for him which to me is very dangerous . Everyone is different. Everyone has different body chemistry. And Co2 regulates acidity of the blood. People can be more alkaline or more acidic. Depending on that you will have different reactions to acid or alkaline forming substances. So some people will react badly to cysteine and some will thrive on it and it wont be inflammatory for them. Some people have low estrogen and high progesterone, like me for example. I have scoliosis and my breathing is not as good as it should be and I retain CO2. If I take progesterone that will screw me over big time. I have no idea why people are so attracted to this diet or peating . It tells you the correct things, suppress stress hormones ---- have good metabolism. But the way to do that is wrong wrong and wrong again. Gelatin for me is like death. I have low serotonin and low cysteine . You need to know what your balance is, what is going on with your hormones not just eat someone elses diet. And no this diet is not for everyone, and Danny Roddy is also very wrong. Calcium increases metabolic rate? Ahhahah how about you take calcium for a week alone and check your body temperature it will crash. Calcium decreases sodium and potassium, how can it increase metabolic rate, I dont get. If I drink milk I feel depressed right away. Metabolism is thyroid plus adrenals. So if calcium lowers potassium and cortisol then it will turn on thyroid. That is not increasing metabolic rate. Cortisol plus thyroid is potassium , pancreas liver adrenals are sodium. That is metabolism. I have no idea how this diet will help someone in already anabolic state , it will kill that person with all that calcium. That is why Gerson therapy was high phosphorus to calcium and Peats is high calcium to phosphorus. Not sure how you can raise metabolism with high calcium phosphporus, you can lose zinc with that, that is for sure, you can lose your vision with that since zinc is needed for that. May be that is why Peat wears these thick glasses/ If he is on such healthy diet, why glasses like that? I will tell you why. All this calcium lowers zinc big time. and Peat has to eat oysters daily and take progesterone. Since progesterone is to retain zinc. But how are you going to balanced 3 quarts of milk, taht is like 400% calcium. How are you going to balance that with oysters weekly))))

 

[gbolduev]

Oh and I forgot something. People living high in the mountains do get high amounts of Co2 , he is correct about that. But they also drink highly alkaline mountain spring water with huge bicarbonate content . PH goes from 8.5 and higher on that. Nature is very balanced. Balance is the key not some CO2 in blood to shoot for. that is just simply ridiculous.

 

[Blossom]

Gbolduev- if you have kyphosis or kyphoscoliosis that results in chronic hypoventilation then your context is different from most/many people. I'm not convinced that the hypoventilation is necessarily ALL bad as medicine would have us believe. Anecdotally I have seen a person die who was living happily with a venous CO2 in the mid 40's and within a couple nights of being on bipap she died suddenly in her sleep. I do not know with 100% certainty that it was the sudden and dramatic lowering of her CO2 that led to the cardiac arrest but I'm suspicious that it could have played a role. Restrictive lung disease can be thought of as an outward interference in ventilation. In medicine some spine curvatures are considered as being on the restrictive lung disease spectrum and many obese people are also considered as having restrictive lung disease. There is an obesity paradox in that medicine can't quite explain why obese people seem to have better outcomes in many scenarios. I wonder if this hypoventilation due to body habitus doesn't in fact possibly have some poorly understood benefit due to increased CO2. Obviously if one has a naturally higher CO2 in this context then no further attention to CO2 would be necessary. As Peat would say context is everything. I don't think medicine appreciates CO2 enough to consider that there may be another way of viewing things. If you are convinced something is a poison or waste product then any positives that may be a result of increased CO2 are attributed to something else or suddenly called a paradox. If said poison is a patentable drug then the rules are different of course. I personally find Peat's views on CO2 more realistic than medicines perspective. I would go straight to Peat's articles before concluding he is wrong. Our discussions on the forum (mine included) may have given you the wrong impression or a limited view. I apologize if I have posted anything that rubbed you the wrong way. We have to always consider our personal situation when reading the forum. All are unique and what applies to one may not be appropriate for another.

 

[LucyL]

Not sure how you can raise metabolism with high calcium phosphporus, you can lose zinc with that, that is for sure, you can lose your vision with that since zinc is needed for that. May be that is why Peat wears these thick glasses/ If he is on such healthy diet, why glasses like that? I will tell you why. All this calcium lowers zinc big time. and Peat has to eat oysters daily and take progesterone. Since progesterone is to retain zinc. But how are you going to balanced 3 quarts of milk, taht is like 400% calcium. How are you going to balance that with oysters weekly))))

I'm curious how you came to this conclusion? I haven't seen any evidence before of calcium intake resulting in lowered zinc levels. In fact, milk is a pretty good source of zinc. Estrogen can certainly interfere with zinc, and that is likely part of the relationship between estrogen and osteoporosis. But calcium? That's a new one for me.

 

[visionofstrength]

Not sure how you can raise metabolism with high calcium phosphporus, you can lose zinc with that, that is for sure, you can lose your vision with that since zinc is needed for that. May be that is why Peat wears these thick glasses/ If he is on such healthy diet, why glasses like that? I will tell you why. All this calcium lowers zinc big time. and Peat has to eat oysters daily and take progesterone. Since progesterone is to retain zinc. But how are you going to balanced 3 quarts of milk, taht is like 400% calcium. How are you going to balance that with oysters weekly))))

I'm curious how you came to this conclusion? I haven't seen any evidence before of calcium intake resulting in lowered zinc levels. In fact, milk is a pretty good source of zinc. Estrogen can certainly interfere with zinc, and that is likely part of the relationship between estrogen and osteoporosis. But calcium? That's a new one for me.

There is an indirect cause and effect, since calcium increases metabolism and increased metabolism depletes Vitamin A, sometimes leading to a need for zinc (and sometimes causing acne). Small amounts of liver help here, along with Vitamin E supplements (which spares Vitamin A).