WARNING: CO2-related Death

[jitsmonkey]

I have not read all of gbolduevs posts but I have read enough of them to know one thing...

People who speak about these complex matters with such certainty
are more often wrong than right. I'm sure he's got something of value to contribute because
his study and intelligence are unquestionable. But his certainty about these matters in my experience
is a red flag more than anything else. Usually a sign of an adult who hasn't been alive long enough
to have much wisdom to go along with his knowledge. That will come in time. Hopefully.
Until then.........

 

[Dante]

Under 600 mg seems to work well for most.
Peat spoke about it in a recent newsletter ,at the end of the news letter he mentions it for issues like the quotes below,remember context and generalization -
"When fats are oxidized instead of glucose, more oxygen is needed to produce the same amount of energy, and less carbon dioxide is produced. While lactic acid and a more reducing balance in cells activate the excitatory glutamatergic system, an increased concentra tion of carbon dioxide inhibits that system (Urenjak, et al., 1997). The glutamatergic/NMDA system is one of the activators of the nerves in the brain that regulate breathing, and it's probably through this system that lactate increases breathing, and tends to produce hyperventilation, lowering C02 throughout the body. Carbon dioxide is both a product of, and an activator of, oxidative energy production, and with the loss of C 0 2 through hyperventilation, the NADHINAD+ ratio increases, and oxidative energy production decreases".

Could you tell the title of that newsletter ? I subscribed to his new letters quite late, have to request him for the older ones I guess :)

 

[Xisca]

I'm sure he's got something of value to contribute because his study and intelligence are unquestionable. But his certainty about these matters in my experience is a red flag more than anything else.

oops, edit: sorry jits, I took only your words, and I mean nothing personal in answering your quote. I answer the quote.

Reacting goes 2 ways. We react to people who reacted...
Certains aspects of "certainty" are there only because they were triggered. If I see something with my eyes, and people make fun of it, I will say it higher. A friend of mine can see auras, and as a child she did not know that others did not see what she saw. You can guess what happenned... Children learn to shut their mouth, and some adults learn to open it again, when they choke.
Certainty has 2 meanings. For sure we can never be sure to be right in an absolute way. We can still say with certainty we are sure right now and to the best of our knowledge. In my permies forum signature I have written something like "However loud I say it, it is only my experience".

The truth of what you said about the red flag reflex goes even further. It means that when somebody is a good manipulator, he will use techniques to not be felt as authoritative, and avoid reactions. It is human to shut to certains ways of comunication, but it is what opened the doors to comunications skills and marketing!

Conclusion for me: I think I prefer to choose the value, and it is good to have the red flag also when communication is good, or even more.... In many jobs unfortunately, people do not even know if they are right or wrong, they just care about the right communication! Are they right or wrong about GMO, pesticides and more? The boss told you what you had to do or communicate, and you have no choice but do it. And you focus on doing it right, so you can forget how wrong the product can be.

lol If you are told to sell finasteride, maybe better go and eat weeds! Or be ignorant and get your monthly bucks! If you are not ignorant, then you damage your nervous system... Good luck...

 

[tara]

I've been told of a person who recently died in some way related to using a CO2 tank. I don't know any details beyond that, but I wanted to warn anyone that's trying to boost CO2 with outside factors.

Thanks for putting this in for those who might have missed the risk.

I think there can be perfectly valid reasons for raising CO2 levels in some situations.
But anyone who doesn't understand that excess CO2 can be harmful and potentially lethal shouldn't be experimenting with supplementing it, and probably shouldn't have a tank of it in their house.

Just because CO2 is good and necessary to life doesn't mean the more the better.

I imagine that the reason Peat has not said this is not because he doesn't believe it, but because he considers it so blindingly obvious that it doesn't need stating.

We even had people sleeping with masks strapped on LOL. Bad stuff is bound to happen.

+1
If anyone is considering breathing supplementary CO2, after researching and figuring out that it may be suitable for your particular condition, I strongly recommend:
- [edit to add the obvious:] use only small proportions of supplemental CO2 in air
- holding it with your hand in such a way that drowsiness or fainting will lead you to drop it and cut the supply
- having good ventilation in the room
- having someone else around to keep an eye on you and notice if you need help.

Is there one person on this forum who believes that elevating thyroid or co2 as high possible has any merit in reality? Are all of you for real? What does as high as possible even mean?

It makes no sense to me that people are arguing about hypercapnia being harmful. Why would anyone argue with gbolduev when he says this? It's like arguing with someone who says drowning (eta: or dehydration) is a bad idea, or eating too much salt is a potential way to shorten ones life. Or, hearing that being adapted to high altitude can have some specific benefits, forgetting that severe altitude sickness is deadly. Of course it it is harmful.

But it seems some people have so little background knowledge, so little common sense, and such high risk tolerance, and from time to time suggest such extreme measures, that it is not obvious to me that people understand the basics of how to keep safe and alive in the short term, let alone how to think about supporting long term health.
People sometimes seem to paraphrase Peat in misleading ways (eg, something like, with regard to CO2, 'not as dangerous as' to 'completely safe'), or generalise things he's said in very specific contexts as though they always apply.

I read this and it doesn't say anything in support of your contention that CO2 is bad at all.

CO2 isn't bad. The right amount of CO2 is good and health supportive. Hypercapnia - too much CO2 - is dangerous. Just like any number of other perfectly good and necessary substances can be lethal in excess. You can kill yourself with excess water, or salt etc too. That doesn't mean they are bad, it means they should be used appropriately.

Good point. I think he talks about letting go through your skin, but never about breathing it directly.

I've never seen Peat recommend breathing supplementary CO2.

The removal of context in all these is a matter of poor implementation by impatient people, and not to be faulted on Ray Peat's ideas.

I think that may be rather a lot of the source of confusion and conflict. Some people seem to be very ready to take something Peat has said within a specific context, and treat it as though it is a general guideline to apply in all situations. I would like to see people take him more literally, and to note the context and limits he puts around his own statements. I see a lot of extrapolation and exaggeration that I think are unfairly attributed to Peat. (And possibly I've been guilty of it myself. )

People forgot how to listen to themselves. I think it is needed to steer them into the direction of actually listening to themselves

I think you and Peat might be in agreement about this.

Perceive. Think. Act. Really! Proceed with maximum restraint. Walk. Don't Jump. If in doubt, stop.

+1

I'm just like that. I admit it. I'm just lucky I still have a decent amount of hair left on my scalp. Otherwise, there I go but for the grace of God!

If all people lose is their hair, they are lucky.

Is it possible that hypothyroid people could even have too low of concentration of CO2 in the lungs necessitating the use of bag breathing?

I think this can happen.

So, the claim that some people are chronically stuck in a pH imbalance needs a lot more evidence for me to accept it.

You are talking about blood pH, right? Because blood pH balance is so important, I think the rest of the body with its buffers can get out of balance in the effort of sustaining it.

Gran Canary has been burning for a few days, a woman even died, and the firemen have to choose where they put more strength more men and more efforts.

Sorry to hear about the fires. I don't know if you are close to there. Hope you and yours and everyone else has got through OK, with the help of the brave firefighters and everybody.

I have used a CO2 tank on-and-off for 2 years. Never had issue with it, I always feel great after. Sometimes I use it if i wake in middle of night panicky - and I can literally feel my whole body relaxing, which doesn't fit with Gblod's view of hypoventilation for low thyroid, but fits with Ray's view exactly of hyperventilation especially at night time.

I too have had periods of hyperventilating in the night. (Seldom now.) Mostly solved since I learned to sleep with mouth shut, and maybe other changes. I'm thinking this may be a matter of not all hypothyroid folk having the same breathing patterns.
(Not sure that gbolduev would automatically lump all hypothyroid folk together.)

I think some people here are really wondering if Gbolduev could possibly be right in his assertion that hypothyroid folks are actually high in bicarbonate. That seems contradictory to the evidence. And while I agree, bag breathing is a temporary fix, I do think that it can be necessary when a hypothyroid person is hyperventilating, which is something that can happen all too frequently.

From where I am at the moment, having read a fair bit about Buteyko method from Rakhimov's site, and a fair few of gbolduev's posts, and guessing that I understand some but not all of both, it looks like this to me at the moment, subject to change as I learn more:

People in hypothyroid state can probably be in both categories. Some very obviously hypoventilate, and that is common in end of life conditions, so it's not surprising if that's what people in hospitals etc see. This is not in conflict with what Rakhimov says - he makes explicit exceptions for situations where there are ventilation-perfusion difficulties, which I think is what gbolduev and mattyb have described (eg COPD, pneumonia, pressure or constraint on lung expansion, CO2 so high at lungs that oxygen cannot by absorbed, etc). In those states, people need to get in oxygen and get rid of CO2, and they don't want to make it any harder than it already is. There may be milder cases in this or related directions that are not yet diagnosed as serious diseases by the medical fraternity, but that nonetheless to don't benefit from reduced breathing.

Some low thyroid folk seem to hyperventilate, and seem to get significant improvement from breathing retraining to reduce the hyperventilation issues. Butekyko methods have been shown to work really well for some people. Personally, I can tell that I was obviously hyperventilating at times, and the most acute expressions of this stopped when I stopped mouth breathing at night (other changes may also have helped). Low body temps, lab reports, and symptoms all seemed to suggest somewhat low thyroid function. (I don't know if I'd count as a fast or slow oxidiser, not having done the relevant tests so far.)
I'm not sure that gbolduev's categorisation of slow oxidisers lines up exactly with hypothyroid. Possibly some people may be hypothyroid but fast oxidisers - eg maybe running on high adrenaline (I'm interested to know whether I've understood this).

There is no such thing as balance,nobody or any particular organ are balanced.

There is no such thing as perfect balance - any more than there is with standing or tightrope walking - there is the continuous play of being a little out of balance and trying not to get too far out so you can get back again.
But the body is always trying to maintain homeostasis in multiple parameters to optimise its own survival.
I'd see maintaining all those parameters within their optimal ranges as a kind of balance in the flow of life, wouldn't you?.

 

[lollipop]

Thanks for putting this in for those who might have missed the risk.

I think there can be perfectly valid reasons for raising CO2 levels in some situations.
But anyone who doesn't understand that excess CO2 can be harmful and potentially lethal shouldn't be experimenting with supplementing it, and probably shouldn't have a tank of it in their house.

Just because CO2 is good and necessary to life doesn't mean the more the better.

I imagine that the reason Peat has not said this is not because he doesn't believe it, but because he considers it so blindingly obvious that it doesn't need stating.


+1
If anyone is considering breathing supplementary CO2, after researching and figuring out that it may be suitable for your particular condition, I strongly recommend:
- holding it with your hand in such a way that drowsiness or fainting will lead you to drop it and cut the supply
- having good ventilation in the room
- having someone else around to keep an eye on you and notice if you need help.


It makes no sense to me that people are arguing about hypercapnia being harmful. Why would anyone argue with gbolduev when he says this? It's like arguing with someone who says drowning is a bad idea, or eating too much salt is a potential way to shorten ones life. Or, hearing that being adapted to high altitude can have some specific benefits, they forget that severe altitude sickness is deadly. Of course it it is harmful.

But it seems some people have so little background knowledge, so little common sense, and such high risk tolerance, and from time to time suggest such extreme measures, that it is not obvious to me that people understand the basics of how to keep safe and alive in the short term, let alone how to think about supporting long term health.
People sometimes seem to paraphrase Peat in misleading ways (eg, something like, with regard to CO2, 'not as dangerous as' to 'completely safe'), or generalise things he's said in very specific contexts as though they always apply.


CO2 isn't bad. The right amount of CO2 is good and health supportive. Hypercapnia - too much CO2 - is dangerous. Just like any number of other perfectly good and necessary substances can be lethal in excess. You can kill yourself with excess water, or salt, etc too. That doesn't mean they are bad, it means they should be used appropriately.


I've never seen Peat recommend breathing supplementary CO2.


I think that may be rather a lot of the source of confusion and conflict. Some people seem to be very ready to take something Peat has said within a specific context, and treat it as though it is a general guideline to apply in all situations. I would like to see people take him more literally, and to note the context and limits he puts around his own statements. I see a lot of extrapolation and exaggeration that I think are unfairly attributed to Peat. (And possibly I've been guilty of it myself. )


I think you and Peat might be in agreement about this.


+1

If all people lose is their hair, they are lucky.


I think this can happen.


You are talking about blood pH, right? Because blood pH balance is so important, I think the rest of the body with its buffers can get out of balance in the effort of sustaining it.


Sorry to hear about the fires. I don't know if you are close to there. Hope you and yours and everyone else has through OK, with the help of the brave firefighters and everybody.


I too have had periods of hyperventilating in the night. (Seldom now.) Mostly solved since I learned to sleep with mouth shut, and maybe other changes. I'm thinking this may be a matter of not all hypothyroid folk having the same breathing patterns.
(Not sure that gbolduev would automatically lump all hypothyroid folk together.)


From where I am at the moment, having read a fair bit about Buteyko method from Rakhimov's site, and a fair few of gbolduev's posts, and guessing that I understand some but not all of both, it looks like this to me at the moment, subject to change as I learn more:

People in hypothyroid state can probably be in both categories. Some very obviously hypoventilate, and that is common in end of life conditions, so it's not surprising if that's what people in hospitals etc see. This is not in conflict with what Rakhimov says - he makes explicit exceptions for situations where there are ventilation-perfusion difficulties, which I think is what gbolduev and mattyb have described (eg COPD, pneumonia, pressure or constraint on lung expansion, CO2 so high at lungs that oxygen cannot by absorbed, etc). In those states, people need to get in oxygen and get rid of CO2, and they don't want to make it any harder than it already is. There may be milder cases in this or related directions that are not yet diagnosed as serious diseases by the medical fraternity, but that nonetheless to don't benefit from reduced breathing.

Some low thyroid folk seem to hyperventilate, and seem to get significant improvement from breathing retraining to reduce the hyperventilation issues. Butekyko methods have been shown to work really well for some people. Personally, I can tell that I was obviously hyperventilating at times, and the most acute expressions of this stopped when I stopped mouth breathing at night (other changes may also have helped). Low body temps, lab reports, and symptoms all seemed to suggest somewhat low thyroid function. (I don't know if I'd count as a fast or slow oxidiser, not having done the relevant tests so far.)
I'm not sure that gbolduev's categorisation of slow oxidisers lines up exactly with hypothyroid. Possibly some people may be hypothyroid but fast oxidisers - eg maybe running on high adrenaline (I'm interested to know whether I've understood this).


There is no such thing as perfect balance - any more than there is with standing or tightrope walking - there is the continuous play of being a little out of balance and trying not to get too far out so you can get back again.
But the body is always trying to maintain homeostasis in multiple parameters to optimise its own survival.
I'd see maintaining all those parameters within their optimal ranges as a kind of balance in the flow of life, wouldn't you?.

What a balanced post in the midst of “it all”. Thank you.

 

[haidut]

You are talking about blood pH, right?

Yes, blood pH. If it gets out of whack people can easily die and it is not something I see an organism being able to chronically survive and even adapt to so that it becomes one of the metabolic types.

 

[tara]

Yes, blood pH. If it gets out of whack people can easily die and it is not something I see an organism being able to chronically survive and even adapt to so that it becomes one of the metabolic types.

Yeah - I understand it's a very narrow range that it has to stay in.
Other parts of the body and discharges can vary a lot more, and sometimes seem to get out of balance one way or the other.

 

[Xisca]

I'm not sure that gbolduev's categorisation of slow oxidisers lines up exactly with hypothyroid. Possibly some people may be hypothyroid but fast oxidisers - eg maybe running on high adrenaline (I'm interested to know whether I've understood this).

I was wondering too... my idea is that we do not have the same cause to hypoT symtoms. You can be hypoT because the gland does not work properly, or hashimoto, or bad conversion from T4 to T3, or hormone resistance.
This leaves room to be in different types! Now I see me as an obvious hormone resistant: some about T, insuline for sure, and let's see about cortisol and adrenaline....

==>> important conclusion: my labs for thyroid are not bad but I have symptoms = resistance -> my body knows what it does -> I should not mess up with forcing in hormons. And it matches with the idea that we have to take care of surrenals first.

So, the claim that some people are chronically stuck in a pH imbalance needs a lot more evidence for me to accept it. Yes, blood pH. ... adapt to so that it becomes one of the metabolic types.

blood pH balance is so important, I think the rest of the body with its buffers can get out of balance in the effort of sustaining it.
I understand it's a very narrow range that it has to stay in.

I think the metabolic types fit in a very narrow range of pH, both blood and cells, and has nothing to do with the big imbalances in emergency rooms. It might just be that those rules used in ER are the sames, and thus allow us to see those rules more clearly, when they work at more subtle levels.

It just seem logical to me that we can be stuck in pH imbalances, the same way I have seen the results at a very subtle level, when the body is stuck in some old nervous imbalance. What has been said for panick attacks is a very good example of this. You can see the big scary examples in ER, when just the present state of a BIG imbalance can trigger what seems "only emotional". But then, there are panick attacks when there is no danger around, but it can indeed be solved by somatic methods, when the chronically stuck imbalance is resolved at the nervous level (including the physilogical responses of fight flight and mostly feeze on top of the first two). Clinically, it works. Then what we can see at breathing and blood pH level, is that it matches too! The trigger can be hyperventilating, but in a context of a person who hypoventilates, compensated by bicabonate. CO2 goes down through lungs and bicarb through kidneys, so there is a temporary but sudden imbalance. And the person gets better thanks to bag breathing! This is the right solution, but then what happens if the person goes on with slow breathing exercices? Chronic stuck. I would rather slowly increase the breathing so that the bicarb can go down. Then I cannot say what will happen, and what will be needed at mineral levels.
But I can say what can happen at nervous/behaviour level: it will move the person out of the para-S excess, and she might not stand the adrenaline urges without help. Or it has to be very slow, and we are not taught that some phenomenoms are just normal when you change state!
Metaphore: go diving with air-bottles and go up without knowing the rules of progressive change... ho my!
This is why we find it difficult to change our present imperfect balances!
A panick attack is when too much adrenaline goes up, so the solution is to dilute the process.
And it is sooo interresting to see that it is the same at pH level, and that the pH might indeed very well match our nervous state, our hormonal and mineral balances... Knowing how we have to move this at psychosomatic levels just allows me to understand from within how careful we have to be when modifiying this at physiological levels. Everybody here have been able to see that some people have emotional reactions to their supplements! You just feel better with magnesium? Great, but if you feel like crap after taking DHEA, nto so great. And if you feel better with something, better not overdo it for too long, or else you loose all the benefits.

There was a link to a Paul eck interview where he states that it is best to work at both level at the same time: physiology and psychosomatic. He says that the correction of the imbalances through minerals can make you feel bad when you have to make the change in yourself. If you make it too difficult for your level, then you will fail. If you do it little by little, each success will make you stronger. Changes are not easy but when you are over the hill after going up, you deserve it and it is worth living!

 

[yerrag]

I asked if any of the "natural" metabolic types you mention is characterized by low NAD and high NADH and if you think that metabolic type is actually healthy. Maybe those types you mention are just the most common states of maldaptation people under stress and poor diet end up in. Does not mean we should continue supporting that maldaptation and keep them there.

According to Metabolic Typing, there are aix basic metabolic types that people could generally fall under. There are three metabolic types that are classified as Oxidative, and three that are classified as Autonomic. Oxidative in this context means that it is the Oxidative System that affects the individual more than the Autonomic System, and Autonomic means that it is the Autonomic Nervous System that affects the individual more than the Oxidative System. The oxidative system is the system that we are familiar with where energy is produced,, involving the metabolism of sugar, protein, and fats. The Autonomic System refers to both the Sympathetic as well as the Parasympathetic Nervous System, with the Sympathetic involving the autonomic fight or flight response system, whereas the Parasympathetic involves the inhibitory processes.

Under the Oxidative System, there are Fast Oxidizers and Slow Oxidizers and the Balanced Oxidizer types. Under the Autonomic System, there are the Sympathetic, Parasympathetic, and Balanced Autonomic types. As we can glean here, there is a balanced type in each of the Oxidative and Autonomic major metablic types. Naming them as Balanced, to me, implies that these are the ideal metabolic types, where there is a state of homeostatis, or balance, that does not involve maladaptations of the body. Having no maladaption, the body is operating generally on a minimum of stress. People in this forum understand what involves stress, so I will not need to elaborate further on it. This means that of the six metabolic types, four types can, in my thinking, involve some sort of maladaptation that defines the individual's general context. With each of the four maladaptive metabolic types, there are certain "rules (rules of thumb, if you will)" that can be applied as far as what kind of food and supplements are recommended, and what are to be avoided. These rules, for me, are mainly a matter of tweaking the general environment to fit a particular maladaptive state. One may think that this isn't a correct approach, but it cannot be said to be wrong either. It is because doing so relieves the stresses in that maladaptive state, and over time of being free of stress, the body can reset itself to eventually become of a type that is Balanced. However, in my opinion, this is where an understanding of Ray Peat would also help get the person back to a balanced state. If, for example a person is maladaptive and falls under one metabolic type and is not aware that his usage of PUFA has made him into a maladaptive metabolic type, he will not be able to turn the corner and become a balanced type.

Fast Oxidizers burn glucose very quickly, and Slow Oxidizers burn glucose very slowly. The Sympathetic Autonomic is similar to Fast Oxidizers, in burning glucose very quickly, while the Parasympathetic Autonomic is similar to the Slow Oxidizer in burning glucose very slowly. While Fast Oxidizers crash when glucose levels go low, the Sympathetic Autonomic does not get so affected. Similarly, the stress response of a Parasympathetic Autonomic is just as different to that of a Slow Oxidative Type, even if they both are similarly slow in burning sugar.

I'm going to take a few educated guesses here, and try to guess what maladaptative mechansim is at work for each of these types:

The Fast Oxidizer burns sugar quickly because fatty acids are blocking the metabolism of sugar. His blood sugar rises quickly, and the insulin response drives his blood sugar down. He relies on adrenaline initially for glycogen to convert to glucose, but his glycogen stores are low, since he is unable to maintain normal blood sugar levels for long, and thus can't feed the liver with enough glucose at night for conversion to glycogen. He often has to rely on cortisol to break down protein to glucose for energy. This is why he has to eat food with a macronutrient ratio that still requires sugar, but with more protein than usual. Having potatoes or rice with a large steak makes him feel good. Since he uses sugar up quickly, he benefits from eating brown rice as white rice converts to glucose too quickly, and a sugar low often results after a sugar spike from eating white rice.

I still have to review on the other types, and will continue once I get my thoughts together. To be continued.

 

[lollipop]

According to Metabolic Typing, there are aix basic metabolic types that people could generally fall under. There are three metabolic types that are classified as Oxidative, and three that are classified as Autonomic. Oxidative in this context means that it is the Oxidative System that affects the individual more than the Autonomic System, and Autonomic means that it is the Autonomic Nervous System that affects the individual more than the Oxidative System. The oxidative system is the system that we are familiar with where energy is produced,, involving the metabolism of sugar, protein, and fats. The Autonomic System refers to both the Sympathetic as well as the Parasympathetic Nervous System, with the Sympathetic involving the autonomic fight or flight response system, whereas the Parasympathetic involves the inhibitory processes.

Under the Oxidative System, there are Fast Oxidizers and Slow Oxidizers and the Balanced Oxidizer types. Under the Autonomic System, there are the Sympathetic, Parasympathetic, and Balanced Autonomic types. As we can glean here, there are Balanced types in each of the Oxidative and Autonomic major metablic types. Naming them as Balanced, to me, implies that these are the ideal metabolic types, where there is a state of homeostatis, or balance, that does not involve maladaptations of the body. Having no maladaption, the body is operating generally on a minimum of stress. People in this forum understand what involves stress, so I will not need to elaborate further on it. This means that of the six metabolic types, four types can, in my thinking, involve some sort of maladaptation that defines the individual's general context. With each of the four maladaptive metabolic types, there are certain "rules (rules of thumb, if you will)" that can be applied as far as what kind of food and supplements are recommended, and what are to be avoided. These rules, for me, are mainly a matter of tweaking the general environment to fit a particular maladaptive state. One may think that this isn't a correct approach, but it cannot be said to be wrong either. It is because doing so relieves the stresses in that maladaptive state, and over time of being free of stress, the body can reset itself to eventually become of a type that is Balanced. However, in my opinion, this is where an understanding of Ray Peat would also help get the person back to a balanced state. If, for example a person is maladaptive and falls under one metabolic type and is not aware that his usage of PUFA has made him into a maladaptive metabolic type, he will not be able to turn the corner and become a balanced type.

Fast Oxidizers burn glucose very quickly, and Slow Oxidizers burn glucose very slowly. The Sympathetic Autonomic is similar to Fast Oxidizers, in burning glucose very quickly, while the Parasympathetic Autonomic is similar to the Slow Oxidizer in burning glucose very slowly. While Fast Oxidizers crash when glucose levels go low, the Sympathetic Autonomic does not get so affected. Similarly, the stress response of a Parasympathetic Autonomic is just as different to that of a Slow Oxidative Type, even if they both are similarly slow in burning sugar.

I'm going to take a few educated guesses here, and try to guess what maladaptative mechansim is at work for each of these types:

The Fast Oxidizer burns sugar quickly because fatty acids are blocking the metabolism of sugar. His blood sugar rises quickly, and the insulin response drives his blood sugar down. He relies on adrenaline initially for glycogen to convert to glucose, but his glycogen stores are low, since he is unable to maintain normal blood sugar levels for long, and thus can't feed the liver with enough glucose at night for conversion to glycogen. He often has to rely on cortisol to break down protein to glucose for energy. This is why he has to eat food with a macronutrient ratio that still requires sugar, but with more protein than usual. Having potatoes or rice with a large steak makes him feel good. Since he uses sugar up quickly, he benefits from eating brown rice as white rice converts to glucose too quickly, and a sugar low often results after a sugar spike from eating white rice.

I still have to review on the other types, and will continue once I get my thoughts together. To be continued.

Interesting @yerrag. Thank you for the attempt at meta-analysis. MUCH needed as it is easy to get mired in the minutia.

 

[gbolduev]

According to Metabolic Typing, there are aix basic metabolic types that people could generally fall under. There are three metabolic types that are classified as Oxidative, and three that are classified as Autonomic. Oxidative in this context means that it is the Oxidative System that affects the individual more than the Autonomic System, and Autonomic means that it is the Autonomic Nervous System that affects the individual more than the Oxidative System. The oxidative system is the system that we are familiar with where energy is produced,, involving the metabolism of sugar, protein, and fats. The Autonomic System refers to both the Sympathetic as well as the Parasympathetic Nervous System, with the Sympathetic involving the autonomic fight or flight response system, whereas the Parasympathetic involves the inhibitory processes.

Under the Oxidative System, there are Fast Oxidizers and Slow Oxidizers and the Balanced Oxidizer types. Under the Autonomic System, there are the Sympathetic, Parasympathetic, and Balanced Autonomic types. As we can glean here, there is a balanced type in each of the Oxidative and Autonomic major metablic types. Naming them as Balanced, to me, implies that these are the ideal metabolic types, where there is a state of homeostatis, or balance, that does not involve maladaptations of the body. Having no maladaption, the body is operating generally on a minimum of stress. People in this forum understand what involves stress, so I will not need to elaborate further on it. This means that of the six metabolic types, four types can, in my thinking, involve some sort of maladaptation that defines the individual's general context. With each of the four maladaptive metabolic types, there are certain "rules (rules of thumb, if you will)" that can be applied as far as what kind of food and supplements are recommended, and what are to be avoided. These rules, for me, are mainly a matter of tweaking the general environment to fit a particular maladaptive state. One may think that this isn't a correct approach, but it cannot be said to be wrong either. It is because doing so relieves the stresses in that maladaptive state, and over time of being free of stress, the body can reset itself to eventually become of a type that is Balanced. However, in my opinion, this is where an understanding of Ray Peat would also help get the person back to a balanced state. If, for example a person is maladaptive and falls under one metabolic type and is not aware that his usage of PUFA has made him into a maladaptive metabolic type, he will not be able to turn the corner and become a balanced type.

Fast Oxidizers burn glucose very quickly, and Slow Oxidizers burn glucose very slowly. The Sympathetic Autonomic is similar to Fast Oxidizers, in burning glucose very quickly, while the Parasympathetic Autonomic is similar to the Slow Oxidizer in burning glucose very slowly. While Fast Oxidizers crash when glucose levels go low, the Sympathetic Autonomic does not get so affected. Similarly, the stress response of a Parasympathetic Autonomic is just as different to that of a Slow Oxidative Type, even if they both are similarly slow in burning sugar.

I'm going to take a few educated guesses here, and try to guess what maladaptative mechansim is at work for each of these types:

The Fast Oxidizer burns sugar quickly because fatty acids are blocking the metabolism of sugar. His blood sugar rises quickly, and the insulin response drives his blood sugar down. He relies on adrenaline initially for glycogen to convert to glucose, but his glycogen stores are low, since he is unable to maintain normal blood sugar levels for long, and thus can't feed the liver with enough glucose at night for conversion to glycogen. He often has to rely on cortisol to break down protein to glucose for energy. This is why he has to eat food with a macronutrient ratio that still requires sugar, but with more protein than usual. Having potatoes or rice with a large steak makes him feel good. Since he uses sugar up quickly, he benefits from eating brown rice as white rice converts to glucose too quickly, and a sugar low often results after a sugar spike from eating white rice.

I still have to review on the other types, and will continue once I get my thoughts together. To be continued.

All these types are simple ACID base imbalances. Respiratory acidosis without compensation, Resp acidosis with compensation. Resp acidosis with overcompensation( in cortisol resistance) Respiratory alkalosis types, these are nervous system imbalances. then you get metabolic imbalances and their types.

Hair is very good to define these if you know what you are doing. Basically hair can do the same as arterial blood gases plus venous blood gases together. But there are cases where you would need blood also

 

[haidut]

I was wondering too... my idea is that we do not have the same cause to hypoT symtoms. You can be hypoT because the gland does not work properly, or hashimoto, or bad conversion from T4 to T3, or hormone resistance.
This leaves room to be in different types! Now I see me as an obvious hormone resistant: some about T, insuline for sure, and let's see about cortisol and adrenaline....

==>> important conclusion: my labs for thyroid are not bad but I have symptoms = resistance -> my body knows what it does -> I should not mess up with forcing in hormons. And it matches with the idea that we have to take care of surrenals first.



I think the metabolic types fit in a very narrow range of pH, both blood and cells, and has nothing to do with the big imbalances in emergency rooms. It might just be that those rules used in ER are the sames, and thus allow us to see those rules more clearly, when they work at more subtle levels.

It just seem logical to me that we can be stuck in pH imbalances, the same way I have seen the results at a very subtle level, when the body is stuck in some old nervous imbalance. What has been said for panick attacks is a very good example of this. You can see the big scary examples in ER, when just the present state of a BIG imbalance can trigger what seems "only emotional". But then, there are panick attacks when there is no danger around, but it can indeed be solved by somatic methods, when the chronically stuck imbalance is resolved at the nervous level (including the physilogical responses of fight flight and mostly feeze on top of the first two). Clinically, it works. Then what we can see at breathing and blood pH level, is that it matches too! The trigger can be hyperventilating, but in a context of a person who hypoventilates, compensated by bicabonate. CO2 goes down through lungs and bicarb through kidneys, so there is a temporary but sudden imbalance. And the person gets better thanks to bag breathing! This is the right solution, but then what happens if the person goes on with slow breathing exercices? Chronic stuck. I would rather slowly increase the breathing so that the bicarb can go down. Then I cannot say what will happen, and what will be needed at mineral levels.
But I can say what can happen at nervous/behaviour level: it will move the person out of the para-S excess, and she might not stand the adrenaline urges without help. Or it has to be very slow, and we are not taught that some phenomenoms are just normal when you change state!
Metaphore: go diving with air-bottles and go up without knowing the rules of progressive change... ho my!
This is why we find it difficult to change our present imperfect balances!
A panick attack is when too much adrenaline goes up, so the solution is to dilute the process.
And it is sooo interresting to see that it is the same at pH level, and that the pH might indeed very well match our nervous state, our hormonal and mineral balances... Knowing how we have to move this at psychosomatic levels just allows me to understand from within how careful we have to be when modifiying this at physiological levels. Everybody here have been able to see that some people have emotional reactions to their supplements! You just feel better with magnesium? Great, but if you feel like crap after taking DHEA, nto so great. And if you feel better with something, better not overdo it for too long, or else you loose all the benefits.

There was a link to a Paul eck interview where he states that it is best to work at both level at the same time: physiology and psychosomatic. He says that the correction of the imbalances through minerals can make you feel bad when you have to make the change in yourself. If you make it too difficult for your level, then you will fail. If you do it little by little, each success will make you stronger. Changes are not easy but when you are over the hill after going up, you deserve it and it is worth living!

The only problem I have with all of this is that in healthy people we clearly observe a downregulation of metabolism as we transition from youth into adulthood and then into aging. So, if this is not a change of metabolic types then what is it? If it is a change then those types can be changed in earlier age as well. And why shouldn't we try to address it with pro-metabolic therapies?

 

[Xisca]

@haidut , there might be 12 types, but we should not view them as the 12 astral signs. They are not as fixed as our brith-day. Yes I think there can be a change of metabolic type, because you can heal the nervous system. We might have a birth type, and it does not mean that we should not go towards balance ...and change! And I think we can change by many ways and that many therapies can lead to the same effect.

I like to make parallels. Some people use emotional therapies, and they do not even notice that there is something happening at ANS level. They see only the limbic, the mamalian brain. The reality is that they have chosen an entrance door, but it is acting at all levels at the same time. Because of course, during an emotional therapy, the breathing is affected, thus the CO2 and pH of the blood, and then the cell will want to take more or less potassium, and what else... So much for our brain to see all at ones. It is like imagining the universe being limitless, huge! Then we decide to simplify the talking and thinking about it on a daily basis, and we make types... That is ok if we keep in mind what they are as a tool.

 

[haidut]

@haidut , there might be 12 types, but we should not view them as the 12 astral signs. They are not as fixed as our brith-day. Yes I think there can be a change of metabolic type, because you can heal the nervous system. We might have a birth type, and it does not mean that we should not go towards balance ...and change! And I think we can change by many ways and that many therapies can lead to the same effect.

I like to make parallels. Some people use emotional therapies, and they do not even notice that there is something happening at ANS level. They see only the limbic, the mamalian brain. The reality is that they have chosen an entrance door, but it is acting at all levels at the same time. Because of course, during an emotional therapy, the breathing is affected, thus the CO2 and pH of the blood, and then the cell will want to take more or less potassium, and what else... So much for our brain to see all at ones. It is like imagining the universe being limitless, huge! Then we decide to simplify the talking and thinking about it on a daily basis, and we make types... That is ok if we keep in mind what they are as a tool.

So, why not aim to change it to the fast metabolism type??

 

[Milky]

The only problem I have with all of this is that in healthy people we clearly observe a downregulation of metabolism as we transition from youth into adulthood and then into aging. So, if this is not a change of metabolic types then what is it? If it is a change then those types can be changed in earlier age as well. And why shouldn't we try to address it with pro-metabolic therapies?

haidut,
When you say "in healthy people we clearly observe a downregulation of metabolism" as we age, I can't help but point out that the word "healthy" is so subjective of a descriptor it may as well not be used at all. Perhaps this downregulation is exactly what is supposed to occur naturally to some degree as one of the many differences between an infant or child and a full grown adult. Either way, we have to consider the possibility that our bodies know best and anyone's current metabolic state is a direct result of the body regulating itself, so to force one's metabolism up too quickly and/or dramatically could very well be counter-intuitive if not dangerous, "pro-metabolic" or not. Think about trying to have a 400 lb obese person suddenly try to run a 5K. It just doesn't work. They might not even be able to walk around the block without a struggle. I'm just saying that perhaps forcing up the metabolism when it doesn't want to be forced up due to some underlying (or obvious) issues in the body might not be the best approach.

 

[yerrag]

According to Metabolic Typing, there are aix basic metabolic types that people could generally fall under. There are three metabolic types that are classified as Oxidative, and three that are classified as Autonomic. Oxidative in this context means that it is the Oxidative System that affects the individual more than the Autonomic System, and Autonomic means that it is the Autonomic Nervous System that affects the individual more than the Oxidative System. The oxidative system is the system that we are familiar with where energy is produced,, involving the metabolism of sugar, protein, and fats. The Autonomic System refers to both the Sympathetic as well as the Parasympathetic Nervous System, with the Sympathetic involving the autonomic fight or flight response system, whereas the Parasympathetic involves the inhibitory processes.

Under the Oxidative System, there are Fast Oxidizers and Slow Oxidizers and the Balanced Oxidizer types. Under the Autonomic System, there are the Sympathetic, Parasympathetic, and Balanced Autonomic types. As we can glean here, there is a balanced type in each of the Oxidative and Autonomic major metablic types. Naming them as Balanced, to me, implies that these are the ideal metabolic types, where there is a state of homeostatis, or balance, that does not involve maladaptations of the body. Having no maladaption, the body is operating generally on a minimum of stress. People in this forum understand what involves stress, so I will not need to elaborate further on it. This means that of the six metabolic types, four types can, in my thinking, involve some sort of maladaptation that defines the individual's general context. With each of the four maladaptive metabolic types, there are certain "rules (rules of thumb, if you will)" that can be applied as far as what kind of food and supplements are recommended, and what are to be avoided. These rules, for me, are mainly a matter of tweaking the general environment to fit a particular maladaptive state. One may think that this isn't a correct approach, but it cannot be said to be wrong either. It is because doing so relieves the stresses in that maladaptive state, and over time of being free of stress, the body can reset itself to eventually become of a type that is Balanced. However, in my opinion, this is where an understanding of Ray Peat would also help get the person back to a balanced state. If, for example a person is maladaptive and falls under one metabolic type and is not aware that his usage of PUFA has made him into a maladaptive metabolic type, he will not be able to turn the corner and become a balanced type.

Fast Oxidizers burn glucose very quickly, and Slow Oxidizers burn glucose very slowly. The Sympathetic Autonomic is similar to Fast Oxidizers, in burning glucose very quickly, while the Parasympathetic Autonomic is similar to the Slow Oxidizer in burning glucose very slowly. While Fast Oxidizers crash when glucose levels go low, the Sympathetic Autonomic does not get so affected. Similarly, the stress response of a Parasympathetic Autonomic is just as different to that of a Slow Oxidative Type, even if they both are similarly slow in burning sugar.

I'm going to take a few educated guesses here, and try to guess what maladaptative mechansim is at work for each of these types:

The Fast Oxidizer burns sugar quickly because fatty acids are blocking the metabolism of sugar. His blood sugar rises quickly, and the insulin response drives his blood sugar down. He relies on adrenaline initially for glycogen to convert to glucose, but his glycogen stores are low, since he is unable to maintain normal blood sugar levels for long, and thus can't feed the liver with enough glucose at night for conversion to glycogen. He often has to rely on cortisol to break down protein to glucose for energy. This is why he has to eat food with a macronutrient ratio that still requires sugar, but with more protein than usual. Having potatoes or rice with a large steak makes him feel good. Since he uses sugar up quickly, he benefits from eating brown rice as white rice converts to glucose too quickly, and a sugar low often results after a sugar spike from eating white rice.

I still have to review on the other types, and will continue once I get my thoughts together. To be continued.

I just realized there is a flaw in my analysis of the fast oxidative type. The fast oxidative type cannot be converting protein to glucose if glucose is not being metabolized because cells are relying on fatty acid metabolism for energy due to the presence of PUFA.

So, the fast oxidative type is really burning sugar very quickly because it is producing energy inefficiently, with less reliance on oxidative metabolism as much as on glycolysis. It will end up with higher production of lactic acid and less carbon dioxide. The blood will have less CO2 and more oxygen (than optimal). However, tissue oxygenation will be impaired and this will further push metabolism to be of the anaerobic fermentative glycolysis type. Blood glucose levels easily go low and this would lead to protein being converted to glucose for energy, not even using glycogen as glycogen stores are always low because there is little glucose excess for conversion to glycogen in the liver.Thus eating carbs high in fiber, such as brown rice would be more suitable over white rice, as the sugar going into the blood stream would slowly trickle in instead of rushing in quickly. A maronutrient mix favoring a high amount of protein would also help because protein can be converted to glucose when blood glucose runs low. However, such a strategy while effective in helping normalize blood glucose, would at best be unable to increase one's metabolic rate. And the metabolic rate would be sub-optimal.

 

[Milky]

So, why not aim to change it to the fast metabolism type??

I thought the goal with this approach is to not be slow or fast, but to be a mixed oxidizer type.

 

[Dante]

So, why not aim to change it to the fast metabolism type??

+1, you changed from fat oxidation to sugar oxidation, i don't think it's something set in stone . Just asking but if one believes that fast oxidation mean high ceruloplasmin and slow means low ,did your ceruloplasmin rose once you adapted to your current diet ?

The Fast Oxidizer burns sugar quickly because fatty acids are blocking the metabolism of sugar. .

I thought one would have hyperglycemia if fatty are blocking sugar metoblism.

 

[yerrag]

I thought the goal with this approach is to not be slow or fast, but to be a mixed oxidizer type.

If you are a balanced type, or is that also called a mixed oxidizer type, you will have more energy because of fast, or high metabolism. Fast metabolism is not to be confused with fast oxidative metabolism.

I think haircut was saying fast metabolism to mean a high metabolic rate. I could be wrong though.

 

[yerrag]

+1, you changed from fat oxidation to sugar oxidation, i don't think it's something set in stone . Just asking but if one believes that fast oxidation mean high ceruloplasmin and slow means low ,did your ceruloplasmin rose once you adapted to your current diet ?


I thought one would have hyperglycemia if fatty are blocking sugar metoblism.

Hyperglycemia would elicit an insulin response and drive blood sugar down to hypoglycemic levels, assuming the body produces insulin adequately.

But this is moot now since I corrected myself. See post #156.