Relearning How To Breathe And Increasing CO2

OP
H

Heidi

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
205
It depends on where you are starting from. The device is made for people who are very sick. You had misinterpreted my advice, just put the device as-is in a larger container and cover loosely with a kitchen towel, and the mouthpiece sticking out. Now you are NOT increasing the water-created resistance, but you ARE increasing the CO2 you are building up in the reservoir with each exhale, and that makes it much more productive WHEN YOU ARE READY for this.

I would say around CP25.

BTW, as far as CP, you should do everything you can to get your CP to 25. I have found most people will stop there, and they get a lot of benefit (which continues for the forseeable future even if you stop the exercises.) But if you go further, you will need techniques like this one, and the next stop is CP33 or so. Few get byond that, sometimes to CP40. My CP is 40 or 45 part of the year, dropping back in winter to 38 or 40.

Getting to 60 takes another dose of commitment which I've never been up for. Maybe there will be other avenues to get there.
Thanks for clarifying this. When I realized my mistake, I switched to doing things as you advised and put the entire container into a larger one.

But they do talk about varying the amount of water in the device in the frolov manual. http://www.aviva.ca/files/pdfs/frolov-manual.pdf And they talk specifically about increasing the water 1 ml every 3-4 days. As well as good charts on increasing all the variables as you progress. They said, "For example, if respiration with 20 ml of water in the simulator inhaler causes complicated breathing or strong resistance to breathing, you should not increase the water volume. Then, if after 3-5 days of training this water volume does not cause the sensation of complicated breathing, you can increase the water volume by 1 ml." I adjusted the water each time that I used the breathslim so that I didn't have strong resistance, just a very slight resistance.

When my CP dropped dramatically, I realized I was not ready for the larger container and have mostly taken a break from the breathslim. I've had a lot of stress in my life recently. My plan is to go back to regularly using the breathslim in the summer, which is a much stronger time of year for me.
 
OP
H

Heidi

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
205
Over a week ago, I had a very upsetting incident with one of my siblings. It ended up stimulating a lot of old family patterns and issues that go way back. As a way of coping with the emotions, I made a conscious decision to feel everything that I was feeling, and stay focused on the physical sensations, as opposed to getting too caught up in the story. This technique ended up being extremely helpful, and seemed to work synergistically with the reduced breathing. My breathing reduced every time that I did it. So then I started practicing it with more mundane little triggers. Whenever I noticed that I was slightly avoiding feeling something, I instead allowed for full sensory and visceral feeling. After practicing this for a week, it no longer feels like something separate from the reduced breathing, but instead feels like part of the same continuum. Both reducing breathing and feeling the physical sensations of emotions move one into a deeply relaxed and settled state. There's a feeling of emotions unraveling and resolving, or like layers being peeled back to reveal something underneath. Both practices feel deeply satisfying. They feel like they are one thing.

I've also been watching and taking note of all the things that stimulate hyperventilation for me. There have been a lot of stress and challenges for me lately. But this witnessing and learning mode in regards to the hyperventilation has helped me to not get as distressed by it. It feels so great when breathing and emotions are settled, that it's painful to lose the relaxed and settled feelings, even when it's only temporary. I've been measuring progress by how I feel, as the oximeter and CP readings fluctuate and are not as good as I'd like. But hopefully over time there will be steadier improvement in those ways, too.
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
I have taken a few quotes from your topic, to comment in the new threat about somatic experiencing I started! I am going to read more than the 1st page and will come back... I have to copy the pages and read out of conexion....
 
OP
H

Heidi

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
205
I have taken a few quotes from your topic, to comment in the new threat about somatic experiencing I started! I am going to read more than the 1st page and will come back... I have to copy the pages and read out of conexion....
I was just reading your page while you were posting this here. Thanks Xisca for starting that thread. I'm thrilled to be linking the sensory/somatic experiencing with the breathing and meditation, and to have people to discuss it with.

Here's the link to Xisca's thread: Somatic Experiencing Of Peter Levine
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
I have lost my computer and what I had writen out of conexion.... Basically, I really advise forum members to read all this thread, and encourage you Heidi to go the same way, you are so right that I have found it incredible!
You are ahead of me in your doing, because I am fighting against some activation, anger, and I just do not want to relax and go back to the fight again at the moment!
Yes, the breathing, when you add the stop after exhale, is linked to a parasympathic state. And this state is the best to function. The one for digesting and having a good immune system.
You discribed perfectly and very poetically the feeling you can have when you enter this meditation state!
Meditation is "no more" than a work on the autonomous nervous system....
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
Somehow, when doing transformational breathwork and intentional hyperventilating, I didn't feel as stressed as I do now. When I did feel stressed I was able to function better through it. It might be that I've become a lot more sensitive to hyperventilating and that it's not as comfortable as it use to be, which might be a good thing. I'm also wondering if my body has been incredibly stressed for a long time, but somehow I was able to suppress it or override it. Maybe this is old stress coming to the surface? My awareness of breathing subtleties is amplified. I've also lost the armoring of the chronic physical tension.
I think you are right....
Staying with some stress in the present forbid the old one to go up.
when beginning a process of change.... I used to be calm, a false calm, and I have activation coming out now, and it does not feel good at all, but this is the path, reach the old to throw the demons out (and find the diamonds!)
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
Thanks Moss! Found it pertinent... I have some before birth trauma, and affected much more than the liver we thought in my childhood, and nerves are very affected by all before 6 months old (nervous system not finished) My mother is so sad about it that I cannot share health issues with her, or she gets guilty
Latent illnesses is an interesting thought. I have wondered whether for some, poor breathing habits that may have started very early on in life due to birth trauma, early family trauma's, unpredictable home life and constant stress = panic!
Nasal irritations, hayfever, cold sores, sinus infections, eye strains, migraines, polyps may have some postural element due to impaired breathing? as well as gut irritations/food/stress. I don't know, if someone has some thoughts I'd love to hear them too.

As I have been looking for solutions too, I have this: The Gesret method, from a french man for asthma, eczema, psoriasis and allergies. He says it has to do with the ribs bad posture irritating the vagal nerve. I know this method to be efficient for a lot of people.
For sinus in my case I think about dead teeth after reading about Buteyko. I will tell the result!
Migraines are removed by some relaxation of tight postural muscles, so that the jugular foramen can open.
I also used SE on myself for head and eye strain.
I have started also with Bates method for eye strain, and know a girl who got superb results. She said she rememberr the day when the strain got away by itself, after lots of work of course...
So YES about postural elements.
I work also now with the Dr Bookspan method, and already better my posture.
With everything, my headaches are gone.
And contrary to what I read from some of you, slow breathing does help me. I can feel some pain when I bend forward only.
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
OP
H

Heidi

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
205
I have lost my computer and what I had writen out of conexion.... Basically, I really advise forum members to read all this thread, and encourage you Heidi to go the same way, you are so right that I have found it incredible!
You are ahead of me in your doing, because I am fighting against some activation, anger, and I just do not want to relax and go back to the fight again at the moment!
Yes, the breathing, when you add the stop after exhale, is linked to a parasympathic state. And this state is the best to function. The one for digesting and having a good immune system.
You discribed perfectly and very poetically the feeling you can have when you enter this meditation state!
Meditation is "no more" than a work on the autonomous nervous system....
Xisca, I so appreciate your kindness and support. Reduced breathing, increased CO2, meditation, emotional healing, release of trauma, and spiritual awakening have all fused into one thing for me. I've expressed a lot of my struggle and stress in this thread, so it's hard to know how the whole sense of what I'm doing comes across. Also, I deeply appreciate the Buteyko Method and people steeped in it for their knowledge. But it's been tricky to find my way, as the Buteyko techniques feel too rigid and like they don't allow enough room for the emotional and meditative aspects of reduced breathing, which has been so integral for me. I feel as though I've unintentionally put some people off, because I'm not doing things in the prescribed way. But there's this deepening with the integration of all of these things coming together. I'm starting to recognize the inherent wisdom in fully feeling one's feelings in the body. The seeds of release are contained within each emotion or trauma. I'm learning to deeply respect my body and emotions and follow their timing. Trying to get something to relax and let go before it is ready, is disconnected and lacks respect. The deeply relaxed and settled states that I've been able to move into, feel so good that I've been over zealous to reduce my breathing, raise my CP, and see shifts with the oximeter. I'm really seeing now how slower is better. I'm also trying to find the right place of trust with the CP and measurements. I'm trying to hold them in a state of open curiosity, but not be controlled by them. I'm trying to stay attuned to and follow the inner felt sense, emotions, and body as they change in the moment. It's an ongoing humbling learning process.
 
Last edited:
OP
H

Heidi

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
205
I think you are right....
Staying with some stress in the present forbid the old one to go up.
when beginning a process of change.... I used to be calm, a false calm, and I have activation coming out now, and it does not feel good at all, but this is the path, reach the old to throw the demons out (and find the diamonds!)
The calm that I use to feel probably would feel not so calm to me now. It probably had a lot of anxiety mixed into it. It is interesting how one can move into deeper states of calm and feel even more settled. I wonder if one can keep expanding and increasing calmness infinitely?
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
I'm really seeing now how slower is better. I'm also trying to find the right place of trust with the CP and measurements. I'm trying to hold them in a state of open curiosity, but not be controlled by them. I'm trying to stay attuned to and follow the inner felt sense, emotions, and body as they change in the moment. It's an ongoing humbling learning process.
I like the sound of your approach.
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
Today I have a bad CP and struggle to slow down the breathing, as I feel I lack air.... and I am very close to a headache. I still manage it until now.... almost no pain.
"I wonder if one can keep expanding and increasing calmness infinitely?" ....I think so, especially when I feel a step backward!

May be Buteyko is not so rigid and we read it like this?
Also, it was meant to cure very ill people and they might have needed some discipline. I have noticed it is not so easy to stick to a hard process alone.... It is easier when the pressure is from outside than from inside.

Also, I understood that some people took some excessive liberty with the method and then said it did not work!
You need to know it well before you can change something (same as in cooking and going off recipes!)

Also, most people do not know themselves well, which is also necessary to play with a method.
 
OP
H

Heidi

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
205
I like the sound of your approach.
Thanks Tara. Notice how I said trying. I got hooked into the oximeter readings this morning because it's now the week of my monthly cycle where I feel the best and my readings with the oximeter are significantly better. It's exciting to see the numbers drop so easily when they normally don't do that. Good readings are a real hook. If I consistently had a good CP, I would be way more into the CP as a measurement. It's nice that there is so much good discussion on the forum these days around the CP and Buteyko and metabolism.
 
OP
H

Heidi

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
205
Today I have a bad CP and struggle to slow down the breathing, as I feel I lack air.... and I am very close to a headache. I still manage it until now.... almost no pain.
I know the feeling of that and can empathize. It's hard.

May be Buteyko is not so rigid and we read it like this?
Also, it was meant to cure very ill people and they might have needed some discipline. I have noticed it is not so easy to stick to a hard process alone.... It is easier when the pressure is from outside than from inside.

Also, I understood that some people took some excessive liberty with the method and then said it did not work!
You need to know it well before you can change something (same as in cooking and going off recipes!)

Also, most people do not know themselves well, which is also necessary to play with a method.
I never follow a recipe and always adlib. Lots of times I just estimate something instead of bothering to measure. If something doesn't taste right, I just tinker with it until it's okay. Most cooking mishaps are fixable. I almost never throw something out. Just transform it into something else.

Ideally with the breathing and CO2 I'd love to have a list of all the possible ways to increase CO2. I like having lots of options and flexibility. So in a way this forum has been good because Buteyko and Peat don't completely match up. So there are different choices and perspectives presented.

I've always been very self disciplined, so I have enough internal pressure and don't need it externally. But support and inspiration are really nice to get externally. Lots of discussion and experimentation with breathing is very helpful and stimulating.
 
OP
H

Heidi

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
205
Because of m_arch's great results posted here: Breakthrough With CO2 Breathing? New Experiment I used the oximeter and took my CP while in the bath for the past two nights, and also while sitting outside in the sun today. I was very exhausted both nights, so I didn't fully trust my results. But what I found was that heartrate goes up. My spO2 drops down 1 or 2 percentage points. And my CP goes down a lot, or stays about the same if it's bad to begin with. Not good for the control pause, but this was helpful knowledge. I've gradually been coming to the conclusion that things that raise my metabolism and are good for me, are also stressful.

I've been struggling with my breathing being worse (hyperventilation) for the second half of my cycle, and I've been thinking it's from progesterone raising my temperature and metabolism. (My thyroid tends to run high, so it might be that the progesterone elevates my thyroid and that contributes to the hyperventilation.)

This month I'm trying daily doses of gelatin. (From reading this thread: Low-dose Glycine As A Treatment For Menopause, Osteoporosis, Obesity ) Gelatin is good for calmness and lowering stress. So far it feels good to be consuming it regularly.

I'm also continuing to supplement with low doses of aspirin, vitex, magnesium, as well as a daily carrot by itself in the afternoon. (I can't get it together to make a carrot salad.) I feel a few signs that indicate to me that estrogen levels are lower. However, my last period was a lot longer and fuller. No bad cramps or clots, which was good. But I much prefer shorter and lighter. But maybe my body reverted back to a more youthful balance of hormones? I'm trying to be open minded about my period being good. Yes, it is probably yet another thing that is good for me, but feels very stressful. The carrot and gelatin have had a constipating effect. I would expect them to have the opposite effect, so I'm not sure what that means.

Hot baths and sunlight feel great for me, but the increase in metabolism is simultaneously stressful. I love to hoopdance, and it also feels really great for short. It seems like I get into a good flow with it, but then have to stop because it starts to feel too stressful. I'm trying to take it slow and stay within my means. Just do short amounts of things that my body can comfortably handle and not push so hard to improve anything. It is hard for me not to push, but good practice to move in that direction.

Still working with the sensory experience of emotions and having regular good results from that. I feel like I'm more accepting of things going how they are going, instead of how my ego would prefer them to be. Overall, with the breathing, I feel like I've settled into better habits, but progress is way slower than I ever thought it would be.

I'm open to any advice or feedback about good metabolism raising things causing a stress response, or suggestions on what to do about it.
 

Luann

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2016
Messages
1,615
I had the worst dream when I bag breathed this morning to go back to sleep
Who else gets dreams or weird sleep when they do it
 
OP
H

Heidi

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
205
I had the worst dream when I bag breathed this morning to go back to sleep
Who else gets dreams or weird sleep when they do it
I haven't had bad dreams from raising CO2, but it has effected my sleep. It's worked both ways for me, sometimes making it hard or impossible to sleep, sometimes helping me to sleep well and deeply. In general I've found that increasing CO2 can be more intense than one realizes. So I'm not surprised that it could stimulate a bad dream. Perhaps it facilitated some kind of deeper subconscious movement or emotional release for you. For me increasing CO2 has been profoundly beneficial, even though there have been lots of difficult effects. It's a learning process of finding better balance on many levels. So I would tend to view the bad dream as healing or cathartic in some way. That being said, if you repeatedly have bad dreams, then I would experiment with other breathing exercises or methods.
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
If the metabolism runs higher at night because of higher CO2, it will need more fuel. Running out of glycogen in the night might contribute to stress and bad dreams?
I seldom get bad dreams, and haven't had one for a while. I used to think I got them (not often) when I was too hot in bed. But I now think I was too hot because my stress hormones had got triggered by low blood sugar.
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
Since I got my bad teeth away, I can get up to 45 CP, and over 20 in the morning still in bed, even 30!
And without doing much exercice.
Actually, I prefer to use the moment I am active. I controle my breathing not to speed it, so it is the same as reducing breating when sitting, I guess.
Now I never open my mouth when I walk, and I think about feeling the slight air hunger.
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
As I go to sleep early, I commonly awake early. If I go back to sleep, then I am often more tired when I get up, and this I would like to explain! In that case, I really need coffee!

This increase in CO2 is also linked to a best parasympathic state.
Which means your body can care about what is waiting to be dealt with...
That is why Buteyko warns about increasing CO2, and I understood right away about the teeth problem when I reached 30 in CP.

When you are in a more sympatic state, some unconfortable stuff can go out, because the body wants to get rid of unecessary old activations.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom