safely using supplemental CO2

[barefooter]

There's been some discussion in the past on using a CO2 tank for breathing CO2, but it seems to be pretty scattered over the forum, and I'm left wondering how to do things properly. I remember reading posts by visionofstrength, and it seems they may have been banned at some point, but they were breathing supplemental CO2 and measuring it with some kind of monitor. I have a 5lb CO2 tank and regulator, and I've experimented with sitting in a giant bag full of co2, but it's kind of a pain and I'm wondering what others have done. I'd like to try breathing a supplemental amount of CO2, but I'm not sure what a safe way to do so is, to avoid too high of a percentage.

I'm also interested in purchasing a device for measuring the level of exhaled CO2, but I haven't found much that's affordable. I know visionofstrength had mentioned something, but I can't seem to track down the post. Anyone have any ideas? I'd love to be able to measure my CO2 when I'm feeling panicky to see how well it correlates with fearful states. It seems there's surprisingly (or maybe not so given the state of pharma) little research on this stuff.

 

[brandonk]

I was doing a search a little while back and found this:
viewtopic.php?p=57166

I've not tried inhaling CO2 (which in medical terminology is called permissive hypercapnia), but if you breathe through your nose while pinching your nose a little with your fingers, it has the same effect of increasing carbon dioxide in your blood. You can measure the effect with a pulse oximeter. When you see the saturation number on the oximeter go down, the carbon dioxide in your blood has gone up (unless you have emphysema or a serious respiratory illness).

It's simple and safe as long as you don't push it too far (much below 89% saturation). Bag breathing has a similar effect that can be measured on an oximeter, but breathing into a bag may not be convenient.

 

[Sheila]

So Brandonk, by pinching the nose a little, and increasing CO2, is that how those 'stop snoring' external nose strips work?
Would that also work to help with daytime hyperventillation whilst working to retrain to a slower breathing rate and better CO2 retention naturally?
Just a thought, grateful if you have any experiences here, thank you
Sheila

 

[brandonk]

post 118045 So Brandonk, by pinching the nose a little, and increasing CO2, is that how those 'stop snoring' external nose strips work?
Would that also work to help with daytime hyperventillation whilst working to retrain to a slower breathing rate and better CO2 retention naturally?
Just a thought, grateful if you have any experiences here, thank you
Sheila

I think the "stop snoring" strips pull the nostrils apart to make it easier to breathe while sleeping. Slow breathing does the opposite and pinches the nostrils together a little to prevent hyperventilation.

Yes, I've seen some evidence that perhaps 3 hours a day of slow breathing (which is a kind of hypercapnia) if done for two weeks leads to an improved ventilatory drive, which should mean less hyperventilation and better CO2 retention naturally.

You can do slow breathing without the oximeter, but the oximeter helps to be sure you don't overdo it, and gives you some feedback as to how you are doing.

 

[Sheila]

Thank you Brandonk.
I was referring to the strips that go over the nose at the bridge, rather than those that are placed inside the nostrils, but thanks to your insights I see where this fits now as it is my conclusion that many unwell people hyperventilate to some degree. For some hours in front of a computer is more than enough.
As an aside, you may be interested in this
Five Percent CO2 Is a Potent, Fast-Acting Inhalation Anticonvulsant.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152150/
one of my current interests is improving retention of CO2., as one strategy to prevent seizures. Buteyko has worked on this area but the low pulse generated by that methods concerns me - it made me very, very cold and I do not think the hibernation state (if that is what it is) can be helpful. But diaphragmatic, slower breathing with 70+ pulse, that sounds like an aim. It would be interesting to know what hypercapnia induced by supplemental CO2 did to pulse. Any thoughts you have on this would be of interest, thank you for your time.
Sheila

 

[Tarmander]

I have a 5 lb CO2 tank that I had filled with "food grade" (scam?) CO2 for like 15 bucks. I breathe it in for a couple hours every other night (with some tubing and a cheap regulator). Before that I would go and buy blocks of dry ice, put them in a bag, and breathe out of it. That works pretty well but it is a bit price prohibitive to do it every day.

I also have a pulse oximeter and oddly enough, I find that when I breathe the CO2, my O2 levels stay plastered to 99. If I am walking around, it fluctuates, but with the CO2 breathing it stays high.

I have found this practice to be one of the best I have ever done as far as calming me down, making the supplements I take more effective, keeping the skin looking vibrant, and aiding in sleep. It has allowed me to get on caffeine and I am surprised that people can do some of the "peaty" things without it.

 

[Blossom]

post 118068 , I find that when I breathe the CO2, my O2 levels stay plastered to 99. If I am walking around, it fluctuates, but with the CO2 breathing it stays high.

I have the same experience when I take diamox. My Spo2 increases to 99-100% and I've attributed that to the CO2 enhancing my bodies ability to oxygenate. I live at a fairly low altitude.

 

[barefooter]

post 118071 I have the same experience when I take diamox. My Spo2 increases to 99-100% and I've attributed that to the CO2 enhancing my bodies ability to oxygenate. I live at a fairly low altitude.

I'm curious, what did you take diamox for, and was it helpful for you? Did you get a prescription, or order from the mexican pharmacy online? I know I recently read Peat said it can be useful for people with nighttime panic while sleeping, which made me very interested in it, but I'm first trying non drug approaches, as I'm worried about side effects. Also, have you found any interesting research on it, I couldn't find much to back up peats claims, but logically it makes a lot of sense?

 

[barefooter]

post 118068 I breathe it in for a couple hours every other night (with some tubing and a cheap regulator). Before that I would go and buy blocks of dry ice, put them in a bag, and breathe out of it. That works pretty well but it is a bit price prohibitive to do it every day.

Can you elaborate on how you're doing this. Do you wear a mask or just keep the tubing close to your nose? How do you know how high to turn the flow up, just estimate by feel? I just did a quick test with my co2 tank, and I set it flowing out of the house very slightly, just about as light as it would go. I then just put the tube near one of my nostrils and inhaled slowly for a few minutes. I don't think I did it for long enough, and I'm not even sure how much co2 I was getting, but I did feel my breathing relax a bit, although could have just been placebo. I did try turning the flow up a bit, and it burned my nostril, so that was clearly too much. For some reason the whole process makes me a bit nervous (I don't want to gas myself and pass out :) ).

 

[Blossom]

post 118073

post 118071 I have the same experience when I take diamox. My Spo2 increases to 99-100% and I've attributed that to the CO2 enhancing my bodies ability to oxygenate. I live at a fairly low altitude.

I'm curious, what did you take diamox for, and was it helpful for you? Did you get a prescription, or order from the mexican pharmacy online? I know I recently read Peat said it can be useful for people with nighttime panic while sleeping, which made me very interested in it, but I'm first trying non drug approaches, as I'm worried about side effects. Also, have you found any interesting research on it, I couldn't find much to back up peats claims, but logically it makes a lot of sense?

I had some concerning labs ( possible cancer metabolism) with wasting prior to learning about Peat so I used diamox early on to help raise CO2 while I worked on optimizing thyroid and metabolism. I'm not recommending others do what I did necessarily, just explaining my reasoning. I can see where it could be helpful for sleep apnea issues although I didn't use it for that.

The only absolute precautions I do know is that people with emphysema, COPD (and possibly restrictive lung disease) shouldn't take it since they do not blow off CO2 via the lungs effectively. I've also read that high doses of aspirin, sodium bicarbonate and MB can have interactions and should probably not be combined with diamox.

I'm glad I took it and feel it really helped me at the time but I obviously no longer need it because I don't really tolerate it any longer. I think in general it isn't a necessary Peatish supplement along the lines of something like thyroid unless a person has a compelling reason and then I think it's wise to do lots of research before making a final decision. I did get mine online.

 

[Tarmander]

post 118074

post 118068 I breathe it in for a couple hours every other night (with some tubing and a cheap regulator). Before that I would go and buy blocks of dry ice, put them in a bag, and breathe out of it. That works pretty well but it is a bit price prohibitive to do it every day.

Can you elaborate on how you're doing this. Do you wear a mask or just keep the tubing close to your nose? How do you know how high to turn the flow up, just estimate by feel? I just did a quick test with my co2 tank, and I set it flowing out of the house very slightly, just about as light as it would go. I then just put the tube near one of my nostrils and inhaled slowly for a few minutes. I don't think I did it for long enough, and I'm not even sure how much co2 I was getting, but I did feel my breathing relax a bit, although could have just been placebo. I did try turning the flow up a bit, and it burned my nostril, so that was clearly too much. For some reason the whole process makes me a bit nervous (I don't want to gas myself and pass out :) ).

I think if you treat it like running/jogging you will be okay. Sure you could pass out running too much, but you could also just slow down and catch your breath lol.

I have tried to wear a dust mask with the tube sticking in it, and I actually do not like that as much as just sticking a tube in one of my nostrils. The tube in the nostril gives you more control as you can grab the tube out easily, or breathe through your mouth if it gets too intense. As long as you keep breathing in and out of your nose it will not burn you. Just pop the tube out when you need to swallow or stop breathing or something. Besides, if it does start to burn, its pretty much just like belching up some soda. It isn't going to hurt you.

I generally keep the flow at a place where I am breathing a bit heavy, but not laboriously. Just experiment for yourself, it isn't something to be afraid of unless you are really reckless or something. The only thing I worry about is if there are additives in the gas, like Benzene or something (I read that somewhere who knows if it is true).

 

[Blossom]

http://www.usmedicalsupplies.com/Nasal-Cannulas.htm
This might be more convenient but the prongs sit inside the nostrils so it could possibly burn if the flow is too high. :) I've never tried it myself but it's what is commonly used for administering oxygen.

 

[Ras]

post 118110 http://www.usmedicalsupplies.com/Nasal-Cannulas.htm
This might be more convenient but the prongs sit inside the nostrils so it could possibly burn if the flow is too high. :) I've never tried it myself but it's what is commonly used for administering oxygen.

That is what I use. I crush dry ice, add it to a 50ml, cannula-tip syringe, affix the tubing, and breathe just enough air to live. It burns if you stop breathing, but the CO2 encourages regular respiration.

 

[dookie]

I had a horrible type of reaction to diamox (aka acetazolamide), which left me with lingering side-effects for months. It's probably one of the most unsafe medications out there. I would try massive doses of progesterone or pregnenolone before ever touching that horrible medication. Even being on antibiotics long-term is probably better. Focus on the big picture first, tinkering around the edges with different prescription meds is not safe in my opinion.

 

[barefooter]

post 118164 I had a horrible type of reaction to diamox (aka acetazolamide), which left me with lingering side-effects for months. It's probably one of the most unsafe medications out there. I would try massive doses of progesterone or pregnenolone before ever touching that horrible medication. Even being on antibiotics long-term is probably better. Focus on the big picture first, tinkering around the edges with different prescription meds is not safe in my opinion.

Sorry to hear it screwed you up so much, and thanks for letting me know about your experience. The more I've been reading around on various sites, I see a lot of side effect complaints. That combined with no interesting studies on it, and I'm just going to stay away. It could be useful, but seems too risky at this point.

 

[marikay]

My experience with Diamox was that it cured snoring immediately, but after two or three days of taking the stuff, my legs became so heavy I could hardly walk. I decreased the dosage but to no avail. So I had to stop taking it. Bag breathing works in the long run for snoring but you have to do it religiously and it takes a while to start working. I got the Diamox from a company in Australia I think (Blossom gave me the name of the company). That company can no longer sell Diamox to the U.S. I also read here that acetazolamide can cause kidney problems. I don't know if the Diamox was responsible, but a few months after taking it, I got a wicked kidney infection. So caution is prudent here.

 

[Blossom]

post 118168 So caution is prudent here.

Agreed. YMMV. I actually only mentioned diamox in this thread as an example of how my oxygenation improved due to the increased CO2. I didn't mean to give the impression that I was recommending it. :) It's a good reminder for me to be careful with my posting.

 

[Peatri Dish]

I was on acetazolamide from farmacia del Nino. It helped me to release excess water weight - 20 lbs worth! But every time I went off of it I would start to regain the water weight. I finally starting passing blood in my urine - just a little bit - and that got me to finally quit it. It was too much for my kidneys I guess. But, it's the only thing that has worked for getting rid of water for me. I have a totally different body without it.
I was fascinated by the story that Dr Peat tells on a KMUD interview about the man who was in an oxygen chamber with high levels of CO2 and he passed out and was lying in a pool of water afterward, but felt like a million bucks. The CO2 apparently forced the water out of his cells. I want that treatment! Lol!
Seriously though, I am concerned that the bag breathing ect. Doesn't work for my edema, yet I know it's CO2. I used to think I was fat and that was tough, but now I worry because I know my cells are hydrophilic.

 

[marikay]

@blossom - I was (and am still) grateful for the recommendation for where to buy Diamox. The company was honest and gave great customer service. I also asked you for a recommendation for where to buy ProgestE and am happy with that recommendation. Believe it or not it was actually Ray himself that recommended the Diamox and then tried to help me with the dosage. But it just wasn't for me (at least at that time). There are of course lots of ways I could have gotten the kidney infection and I don't really blame the Diamox. And I really, really wish there was a quick and easy way to increase CO2. But please know that I am soooo grateful for you on this forum and I hope you stay forever.:)

 

[Blossom]

post 118186 @Blossom - I was (and am still) grateful for the recommendation for where to buy Diamox. The company was honest and gave great customer service. I also asked you for a recommendation for where to buy ProgestE and am happy with that recommendation. Believe it or not it was actually Ray himself that recommended the Diamox and then tried to help me with the dosage. But it just wasn't for me (at least at that time). There are of course lots of ways I could have gotten the kidney infection and I don't really blame the Diamox. And I really, really wish there was a quick and easy way to increase CO2. But please know that I am soooo grateful for you on this forum and I hope you stay forever.:)

Thanks for the kind words marikay