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Experiencing First-Hand How CO2 Is A Pariah In A Hospital Setting

Discussion in 'CO2, Bag Breathing' started by yerrag, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Mom in hospital. Taking antibiotics for aspiration pneumonia. Been there a week. Latest blood gases indicate respiratory alkalosis:

    venous bicarbonates at 26 (within range)
    venous pCO2 at 33.8mm

    Mom sleeps all the time. When she sleeps, she sleeps well at around normal breathing rate of 18-24 breaths/minute. The moment she awakes, breathing rate increase to 45.

    She hasn't been eating much. Taking dextrose D5 water with hypotonic salt. Potassium IV. Starting to eat more by taking osterized food. But yesterday was the highest intake of 375 calories only.

    After much discussion, with doctor trying to avoid confirming to me that my mom has respiratory alkalosis, tells me they're not going to treat her for it because they believe it is secondary to her infection. This seemed like a mainstream medical dogma when she showed me a link explaining their thinking. I asked her what is wrong with addressing the respiratory alkalosis condition? She couldn't give me an answer. I asked her again "What is the risk of addressing the alkalosis diretly?" No answer.

    Again I told her that the condition affects the electrolyte balance, and this affects also the repolarization of the heart, explaining the slight arrhythmic condition. Addressing directly this issue would help a lot, I told her.

    Again, she is unmoved in her stance. I threatened that I will escalate this matter. She offers to give way to another doctor to take her place. I said not so fast. Finish what you began. I wasn't falling for that ploy, knowing the devil I don't know may be worse than the one I know. Besides, they're all the same - conventional medical doctors - cut from the same cloth. I have no alternative really.

    I told her I'll just continue to bag breath my mom. More. That's where we left it at.

    My take: They have nothing on hand for respiratory alkalosis. They may have some baking soda solution. But they view CO2 as so bad they avoid it. They put people on oxygen worsening their situation. They never heard of carbogen. They would be alarmed when someone has respiratory acidosis (too much CO2) but not so when the condition is respiratory acidosis (too little CO2).

    For them, oxygen is good. Carbon dioxide is bad.

    I have only bag breathing for now. I just wish I had a carbogen therapy unit with me now. But I wonder if the hospital will let me bring it in if I actually do.

    Thinking of going to a welding shop and filling a balloon with CO2 for my mom to wrap around. Also thinking about ways to using dry ice to increase the carbon dioxide breathed in without overdoing it.

    Any ideas?
     
  2. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    The cardiologist came and said the respiration rate of 45/min is "normal" for old people. Says that his mother has that breathing rate. Just goes to show conventional doctors just treat old age as a stage that what passes for unhealthy becomes tolerable. They accept the inevitability of poor health with age and makes no effort anymore. Learned helplessness institutionalized.
     
  3. cdg

    cdg Member

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    Absolutely! Have you tried a pinch of potassium or sodium bicarbonate in in orange juice?
     
  4. Lore

    Lore Member

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    If your looking to increase her CO2 breathing - Yes, pursed-lip-breathing and if she gets tired (her jaw or throat muscles may get tired) put on a surgical mask, this will allow her to re-breathe her exhaled air (increasing her CO2). I do this all the time to help.

    How do you know if she has had enough CO2? She'll feel warm, too hot. Like she has a sweater on and wants to take it off, she's too warm. Not necessarily warm to the touch, ask her if she's warm, or she will tell you she's too warm. She may ask you to open the window or remove the blanket that is on her. This is the "gauge" I've used that has caused me to equate, "my body has had enough CO2". Then she can stop using the "pursed-lip-breathing" or "surgical mask" until it may become necessary to do it again.

    I can tell you the experiment(s) I used to come to this conclusion if you like.
     
  5. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Thanks Lore for the tip on how to tell if a person has enough CO2. My mom doesn't communicate very well. She is rather stoic and I can't tell if she's feeling warm or not. Would taking her temperature help?

    I'm not sure what you mean by pursed lip breathing, but if the google search indicates exhaling through pursed lips and inhaling through the nose, then I don't think my mom can do that. She undergoes bag breathing instead, and that helps a lot.

    What is the difference between purse lip breathing and breathing in and out through the nose? With Buteyko, I've been taught to close my mouth and just breath in and out with my nose.
     
  6. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Not with potassium, but we've been drinking water with baking soda. That's half teaspoon of baking soda per quart or liter. As for potassium, she drinks fruit juice and uses coco sugar, which is high in potassium. And potassium helps, as well as having enough calcium, sodium, and magnesium. My understanding is that when we're not deficient in those minerals, and when blood (as well the cell) has the right pH, helped along with enough carbon dioxide, our cells are energized and healthy.
     
  7. Lore

    Lore Member

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    Pursed-lip-breathing: Breathe in through the nose (tummy out) with the mouth closed; breathe out through lips together as if you are blowing hot foods on a spoon to cool it off - slowly.
    When your mother is breathing on a regular basis, she should be breathing in and out through her nose, mouth closed (Buteyko). Very, very important.

    When she starts to learn pursed-lip-breathing, just have her take a spoon with a hot (tepid) cup of coffee and have her blow on the spoon full of hot coffee to cool it before she puts it into her mouth. Breathe in thru her nose, out through her mouth as she is blowing on the spoon full of coffee. Slowly, don't blow the coffee off the spoon. Breathe in thru her nose, out through her pursed-lips blowing the hot coffee on the spoon.

    Practice with her when she is fresh, just after she wakes up a bit.
    When she's not pursed-lip-breathing, she should be inhaling through her nose with her mouth closed anyway (Buteyko).​

    Yes, Buteyko is correct, I learned from him. The purpose for pursed-lip-breathing is to slow the breathing rate down - your mother is hyperventilating, really bad. I used to hyperventilate really bad also.

    The reason for raising her CO2 level with either a brown bag, pursed-lips or a surgical mask is - to slow her breathing down. She's breathing too fast, she's hyperventilating and the CO2 slows her breathing rate and heart rate down. It's understandable why she's hyperventilating, she's scared - fear. Then, of course, depending on what medications she's on, heart condition, etc., this will also raise her heart & breathing rate.

    Bag breathing: does she have her nose and mouth covered with the bag? You can also use a surgical mask. This will also cause her to re-breathe what would be, the CO2 she's exhaling. If you put an oximeter on her finger and she is raising her CO2 level with the surgical mask on, her O2 reading will increase, heart rate will decrease because she is raising CO2 within her body.

    She will begin to feel warm when she has enough CO2 for a period of time. She may reach up and want to take the mask off her face because she is too warm.

    Will taking her temperature help? I don't know, I've never taken my temp before and after. I will test mine, the next time I have to use these procedures. I find myself having to use pursed-lip-breathing every day, every time I get up to walk anywhere.


    Hope this helps.
     
  8. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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    I bet the alkalosis is secondary to them pumping her up with oxygen as you mentioned in another post.

    Good for you to stay on them. The surgical mask sounds like a good idea.
     
  9. Lore

    Lore Member

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    I think that's what is happening to me also. That's what I'm here to find out.

    I'm on 3L of O2, 24/7. My oximeter reading is apx 92-94 with a heart rate of 64, about 8-10 breaths per minute. If I get up and walk, my oxygen will drop into the 70's, sometimes 60's and heart rate will rise to 90-110. Since I've reset my vagus nerve, I can keep myself from hyperventilating, but I do feel like a runner that is out of breath. If I pursed-lip-breathe as I'm walking, I can keep my O2 in the mid 80's for quite some time.

    I will wear a surgical mask around my neck in case I get lazy and don't want to pursed-lip. I'll just put the mask on, but, it doesn't keep me in the mid 80's, but it does keep me in the 80's. The mask just gives my neck & jaw muscle a break for a bit. It's my back-up.

    I know she's elderly, but if there is any possible way you can get her to use the T.E.N.S unit, this is what she really needs. Her sympathetic nerve is locked into "fight or flight mode". How do I know? You said her sleeping was what, 25 bpm? And awake 45 bpm? This is really bad. No wonder she is always sleeping.
     
  10. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    That could very well be the case. Bag breathing is such a simple thing to do, yet I admit to giving it little weight before. I would always say it's used only for emergency situation of hyperventilation. But after reading and listening to Ray Peat, and realizing how central carbon dioxide to our health, I had to overcome my inertia of inaction and fear to try bag breathing on my mom. I first had to remove the oxygen first, and observe the oximeter readings. After that, I realized the oxygen is unnecessary after the initial helping of oxygenation. From then on, it was mostly air for her, and the use of bag breathing on her regularly. It was a revelation that after two hours of bag breathing, my mom's heart rate went down by half, and her irregular breathing wasn't so irregular anymore. That carbon dioxide can have such an effect on the heart was an hallelujah moment. Never in my life could I imagine outdoing a cardiologist in correcting a heart situation.

    Lore, I would ask about your TENS idea, but today my mom is breathing at 22bpm, and awake all day. It took many days of bag breathing, but her breathing rate has been restored to normal.

    Also, her temperature went up to 37.3C after an hour of bag breathing from 36.7F. This kinda confirms what you're telling me about bag breathing warming up the person. My guess is that the carbon dioxide is helping increase oxygenation of the tissues and providing a boost to metabolism. Oxygen delivery to the tissues was a limiting factor in her metabolism, and with carbon dioxide effecting the release of oxygen from the blood to the tissues, the increased availability of oxygen was making for an increased metabolic rate. In fact, my mom's heart rate went up from 72 to 83. It's amazing.

    In your case, it certainly looks like you have difficulty already having enough oxygen in your blood, with the quick drop in oxygen saturation with very moderate activity. I've been helped by alternative doctors who told me to remove my mercury fillings and to undergo heavy metal chelation. I did as they advised. I wasn't expecting to improve my endurance at running, but it just happened after the therapy. I felt like a new person. Mercury would attach to the oxygen carrying part of hemoglobin, and the blood's carrying capacity for oxygen would be reduced. Have you ever checked for mercury toxicity? This possibility is not normally considered by a conventional pulmonologist, so I'm assuming it hasn't been explored.
     
  11. Lore

    Lore Member

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    WOW, I'm so thankful you had the guts and knowledge to "step outside of the box" and apply what you thought was correct in the hospital, and in the presence of the alleged medical professionals. Praise God! I'm so thankful she's doing better. So thankful!

    If you don't mind, how old is she? and why is she in the hospital? and is the above statement from the past few days, or yesterday, last night, when?
     
  12. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    She's 93, in the hospital for pneumonia, which has already been resolved. The episode I recounted was from a week ago. Your insight into bag breathing helps a lot. The increased temperature would indicate that bag breathing can be discontinued. Tonight, my mom's pulse went further up to 100. I'm a bit concerned. I need to keep tabs on her vitals, especially the oximeter readings.
     
  13. Lore

    Lore Member

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    I would highly recommend you experiment on yourself with the CO2 - w/oximeter, thermometer, bag breathing, surgical mask & pursed lip breathing. feel what it feels like, watch your stats .. experience as much as you can .. this will help you ... to help your mom.

    Good to know, I assumed she was in her 80's+. My parents are apx 85 now so I have some experience and understanding as to how co-operative they may/could or would not be in a medical crisis and hospital/doctor setting. I don't want to distract from your mom's condition or situation now, except to give me an idea of how open she is or may be to "alternative/co-operative treatments."

    Be prepared, you may find it necessary to start the bag breathing or pursed-lip breathing up again, even if it has only been 5 minutes ago you stopped - or an hour ago. Until she stabilizes, have the mask or bag ready, depending on how she's responding.

    This is where I would recommend putting a surgical mask on her ears, pull the mask part down under her chin. Just leave it available for her to adjust or "put on as she feels it's necessary".

    The bag or pursed-lip breathing will cause her to "feel more in control" of retaining the CO2 faster - and this will slow her resperation, hyperventilation/high heart and breath rate down immediately.

    The surgical mask does the work however to me, it doesn't seem to cause me to retain as much CO2 - as fast as I felt I needed, given the situation. I can explain if you like.

    It's taken me 5 years, to come to some understanding of how and when to use the pursed-lip or mask breathing techniques. I've been doing trial & error ... but more than anything, I'm very concerned I may be making my situation worse because COPDers are allegedly retaining too much CO2 to start with! So I have been working very slowly, by trial and error! Even up to this week with my "heart pains".

    There can be many reasons for an increased pulse/heart rate. I'll share from my current experience what you, as an outsider, unable for her to express to you, what may be happening:
    1. Has she recently had any drugs, nebulizing - within the last 15-60 min.?
    2. Based on what we've been talking about, I would think she is hyperventilating again, either because of fear or chemical imbalance. This will come and go. Five minutes, maybe an hour, for no reason at all.
    Remember, her "subconscious mind" could be causing her to "be fearful" - having a panic attack, anxiety, stress, etc. You don't know what she's thinking, let alone what her body is saying/doing. She probably can't even tell you these things, because she doesn't know herself, hense fear. I didn't know what was happening to me, I've been learning and doing trial & error and there was so much fear, until the TENS unit & Dr. Nimm's treatment.

    I'm ready to die, but "doing something I've never done before" is still a fearful thing. It's like opening a door and passing through - you don't know what's on the other side. We've been told what it's going to be like, but no one I know has 1st hand "experience" to share with me.

    If my pulse started to increase to 80+ knowing what I know now, I'd be"increasing my CO2"; Inside - my blood pressure is probably increasing.

    Increase her CO2 however it's comfortable for her, at least for a bit of time until she stabilizes again. Sitting her up a little bit or straight up (definitely not lying down) - brown bag, pursed-lip breathing, having the mask on her ears, ready to bring over her mouth and nose to give her jaw and throat muscles time to rest - increase her CO2 and see if the pulse comes down. It should.

    If you check her blood pressure, it may be going up, depending if she's on bp meds or not. I don't use any pharmaceuticals and my blood pressure just started rising (and dropped?!), for no apparently reason .. (just this week even. I'm still troubleshooting this, however, CO2 gives me immediate relief, period. Nothing else.)

    CO2 is a vaso & bronchial dilator, calms the anxiety, panic, relieves the pain in the chest, etc. Buyteko said "it will stop a heart attack" and this week, I believe it. I think this is what's causing my chest pains and all I did was pursed-lip breathing and mask after the pain subsided. NOTHING else. 197/114 down to 118/76. It took some time, but it worked and started working immediately.

    Because CO2 is a vaso & bronchial dilator, I've been using CO2 as my "atomizer" if I feel weezy or bronchial constriction (and there have been a few occasions in 5 years, I've felt this and I can create this situation.)
    .

    1. Probably not your mothers case at this time, but I'll post it here anyway: If one eats a "heavy meal" I've noticed my heart rate/pulse increases as I'm digesting. As time goes on, about an hour later, it slowly starts to come down again. Your mom is probably not eating a heavy meal (like a burrito, or a ham sandwich). If I eat a salad or egg omelet loaded with goodies, it hardly goes up. If I notice after I've eaten something and my heart rate goes from apx 68 bpm (my resting/sitting normal) to over 80 bpm, I will take a teaspoon of ACV (Braggs apple cider vinegar) and increase my stomach acid content for better digesting. Usually works fast.
    Sorry for the lengthy post, I wish I was there to hold her hand and help calm her, she will be ok. I'll have to share a story about my experience with my sister, home on hospice with me and her passing in 2005. It was so amazing. Hope this helps.
     
  14. Kyle M

    Kyle M Member

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    Bingo. Add to that the fact that they hold a government-granted cartel over medical care. That is to say, if a bunch of doctors defected and built an identical hospital with identical equipment, manned by people with identical skills, and included CO2 treatments that were not ok'd by the medical association (cartel) of your country, their hospital would be trespassed on by men with guns, their property expropriated, and themselves kidnapped (arrested) or shot if resisting.
     
  15. Lore

    Lore Member

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    I like you! :kiss: my sentiments exactly!

    I truly believe western medicine has "created diseases" to create for themselves, returning customers.

    I refuse to let them "Practice Medicine" on me. I will "practice on myself" thank you very much. What's the least that can happen, die? :rolling
     
  16. Lore

    Lore Member

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    Yes, thank you for confirming one of my theories - I'm working on this as we speak. I don't want to hijack this thread with the details, I'm hoping this is one of the major issues for me to overcome. Watch for my story in the dental thread.
     
  17. A.R

    A.R Member

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    This is exactly what has happened to me - I feel much warmer than the other people in the room, and I've got a pressure feeling in my neck/ Thyroid area now when I breathe - have you ever had that feeling from too much Co2?

    Unfortunately increasing the co2 levels hasn't helped with my snoring problems though.

    I've also developed a strange orange juice craving last couple of days
     
  18. Xisca

    Xisca Member

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    Some stress there!
    It can be from having overdone slow breathing, I think Buteyko mentions it, to regulate the slow breathing by monitoring the pulse rate: it should not go up.
    When I slow breathing too much, I also have a higher pulse, but this is a stress response.
    I do not know how to explain, but when I find the right balance, a not-too-reduced-breathing, I feel I "dive" into a quiet place, and then I can even slow more, but without stress, it becomes easy and my body seems to know exactly how to keep this exact rythm.

    I warmly felicitate you for your braveness and perseverance in a hospital, and to not have gone into fighting with them, but done your way, real congratulations!
     
  19. Lore

    Lore Member

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    Are you deliberately doing specific breathing exercises or something to increase your CO2?

    From exactly what you've said, no. CO2 is a dilator, not a constrictor.

    Thyroid area, if I'm not mistaken, is located in the throat. If I were to place my fingers on either side of my throat where my adam's apple would be, then swallow, the "thing inside" that moves up and down, that is my thyroid, correct? If so, .... again, no. Or if I'm not correct, is the pressure higher or lower?

    The reason I need to clarify is, would you or do you know the difference between "pressure feeling in my neck" (like pressing on the adams apple area, feelings on both sides, like your trying to squeeze it?) vs "bronchoconstriction or bronchospasm" (inside your throat is seem like it's trying to close up)? Or an anxiety or panic attack (maybe your mouth is salivating more)? If these don't describe the feeling, can you give more detail to the feeling?

    If your snoring, your sleeping with your mouth open. Tape your mouth shut. Your CO2 will progressively rise over time. Do you study the Buteyko Method of breathing?

    In the past 4 days, I have had a lot of pain in my sternum area (maybe heart attack pain, maybe costochondritis) and I have been increasing my CO2 breathing (pursed-lip & surgical mask). Strange that you should say this at this time. I've noticed, when I have the pain, and I'm doing my CO2 breathing - if I drink the OJ, the pain seems to be subsiding??? And then, yes, now I have a 16 oz glass on my table beside my coffee and glass of water now. I love it! And, I've noticed my O2 isn't dropping as bad as it has been when I get up to walk. I haven't analyzed all of this yet, it has just been happening these past 4 days, trying to remedy this sternum pain.

    I've been told, if your body craves it, it needs it. Isn't OJ potassium (and much more)? Does this help?
     
  20. A.R

    A.R Member

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    Yes I'm increasing co2/bag breathing to deal with tiredness. Buteyko style breathing through the nose.
    Yes that's the region I'm talking about . It only happened when I increased bag breathing, and the pain only comes when I lie down and breath from nose, but does subside with continuous breathing from nose.

    My mouth does salivate a lot when I sleep

    Yes I think I need to tape my mouth

    Maybe with increased co2, the body's need for minerals increases.


    Yes that's what I was thinking also. Now I know whay orange juice is talked about so much on this forum.
     
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