Ignorance Is Bliss

[yerrag]

The more I learn from this site and from Ray Peat, the more I realize how hard it is to go to a hospital and put myself in a hospital doctor's care. Does anyone else feel this way?

Just today, I asked a rehab doctor attending to my sick mother to do an Achilles tendon reflex test on her. He pulled out an el cheapo neuro hammer supplied by a drug company, and went about doing it the wrong way. I said thank you to him, just not knowing what to say. Was he ignorant, or does he think I'm just as ignorant as the rest? I ran into the physical therapist working under him, and she asked if I was able to get to the doctor. I said yes, but that he was making a fool of me. She laughed as if she knew what I was talking about. Kind of like an industry secret for them. The Achilles tendon reflex test is a useful test for hypothyroidism, and apparently it's underutilized because there are more expensive but less reliable tests around such as the suite of endocrine tests the hospital used on my mom declaring her normal thyroid - free T3, free T4, and TSH - which to those who know among us is not conclusive of a test at all by themselves.

Last weekend, I was engaged in an argument with the pulmonologist who is the attending physician to my mom. She tried to go around my questions regarding my questions on blood CO2 pCO2 values, as I tried to establish a condition of respiratory alkalosis with my mom's test results. She kept evading my questions, saying things like that are inconsistent, trying to throw me off. But I was having none of it, and showed her my understanding of the relationship of arterial and venous pCO2, proving my case that respiratory alkalosis exists. And she finally relented. WTF right? Why the runaround? They're just not used to patients asking questions with some knowledge. It seems they're so used to just doing as they so please with patients, thinking all patients are just going to play dumb, which usually is the case.

I realize more and more the contempt by which they hold their patients. They give us drugs without much regard for side effects. I can understand if they don't bother to tell us, as that would be too time-consuming and it would always backfire on them with patients imagining side-effects left and right. But when patients do their own research and really do observe side effects which could mean stopping the continued use of the drug, they just dig in their heels. Doctors having experience cannoton;t continue to pretend it's the first time they encountered such effects, but talking with them they feign ignorance. They prescribe these drugs all the time, and it's laughable that they're not aware. It just seems to me it is an unwritten rule among hospital doctors to just let side effects run its course. If and when the patient is gravely harmed, they can just as easily chuck it up to genes, or age, or simply say "Gee, I don't really know."

These doctors are otherwise respectable people outside the hospital. But once they step inside the hospital, they have to play the role of an ogre and an actor.

 

[Herbie]

Its a real challenge, the nature of the industry, high stress, high pressure, under funded, understaffed, over worked, night shifts, fluorescent lights, politics in the workplace, I don't know how they can think clearly in the environment of the hospital. I think these people started off with good intentions and became complacent and rigid in their thinking, perhaps not able to clearly remember certain complex things and more focused on getting through the shift instead of being present with the patient. I do have respect for these people for committing their lives to helping people and the conditions they contend with.

I have been to a hospital recently to see a surgeon to get an MRI on my spine (herniated discs) I was humble, agreeable and cooperative and the young male surgeon who saw me was very aggressive, patronising, he was on edge and I tried to make a joke and lighten the mood up while examining me and wouldn't have bar of it. He interrogated me with questions about my history and symptoms and was frustrated with me when I took time to think before answering to be accurate in my communication, he was in a real hurry, rushing around, looked pale and exhausted, he didn't express the humanity one would expect from someone who saves peoples lives. He did a thorough test on all my nerve function and it all passed despite the injury. Didn't go ahead with the MRI.

Ive been pulled over and had the car and my person searched for drugs by police and they were more pleasant to deal with. I am always polite and respectful around authority, treat everyone like a human being understanding they are doing their job but the dr's are the worst I've come across.

I notice in the mainstream media there is shaming towards people looking on google for health advice, I understand the stereotype of googling some symptom and reading the first thing that pops up and the fact that there is over 1500 different diets available with a lot bs and poorly correlated data being sold for money. Cure cancer by drinking your own fermented urine and not eating for 10 days kind of thing but as we know the more you dig the more you find. I don't think the mainstream has any idea to the extent of information on the internet and the amount of intelligent people who can learn and understand what used to be only reserved for people trained in allopathic medicine. I think if if you present to them with knowledge at the same level of their education that it will through them off and they become defensive and insecure.

 

[Lilac]

When my mother was ill a while back with a high-cortisol winter sickness, we went to emergency rooms and saw many specialists. A couple of doctors were good to talk to; they were usually some combination of sympathetic, sensible, a sense of humor, and interested. The others had nothing. And some were downright hostile. All kinds of tests (blood tests, MRIs, EEG) and no help. Fortunately, some tests we refused (overnight in hospital for sleep observation, CAT scan). Doctors are like magicians with their bag of tricks--"credentials," tests, prescriptions, procedures. When you, the audience, know how the tricks are done, you realize that you're usually on your own.

I personally haven't gone to a doctor or dentist since. I did go to an optometrist because I had the insurance and wanted new glasses. She told me I needed cataract surgery. KA-CHING! Knowing Dr. Peat's views on cataract surgery (and also knowing that my mother had hated the results of her cataract surgery), I told her that "that's not happening." Her reaction was amusing. She told me that she personally would not make money from this. But the way she had whipped out a list of doctors for referral made me think otherwise. Anyway, it's the system that she participates in that makes her money.

In my mind, doctors are mostly for trauma. For example, a woman of about 80 whom I know shattered her kneecap. When the first repair with screws, done at an ordinary hospital, didn't heel, she went to New York's Hospital for Special Surgery. There she got a repair with mesh to hold the kneecap together, and now she is doing well. This kind of help is admirable.

 

[achillea]

Truth Files

Doctor who had to leave the country is now exposing the big lie

 

[tankasnowgod]

Its a real challenge, the nature of the industry, high stress, high pressure, under funded, understaffed, over worked, night shifts, fluorescent lights, politics in the workplace, I don't know how they can think clearly in the environment of the hospital. I think these people started off with good intentions and became complacent and rigid in their thinking, perhaps not able to clearly remember certain complex things and more focused on getting through the shift instead of being present with the patient. I do have respect for these people for committing their lives to helping people and the conditions they contend with.

I have been to a hospital recently to see a surgeon to get an MRI on my spine (herniated discs) I was humble, agreeable and cooperative and the young male surgeon who saw me was very aggressive, patronising, he was on edge and I tried to make a joke and lighten the mood up while examining me and wouldn't have bar of it. He interrogated me with questions about my history and symptoms and was frustrated with me when I took time to think before answering to be accurate in my communication, he was in a real hurry, rushing around, looked pale and exhausted, he didn't express the humanity one would expect from someone who saves peoples lives. He did a thorough test on all my nerve function and it all passed despite the injury. Didn't go ahead with the MRI.

Ive been pulled over and had the car and my person searched for drugs by police and they were more pleasant to deal with. I am always polite and respectful around authority, treat everyone like a human being understanding they are doing their job but the dr's are the worst I've come across.

I notice in the mainstream media there is shaming towards people looking on google for health advice, I understand the stereotype of googling some symptom and reading the first thing that pops up and the fact that there is over 1500 different diets available with a lot bs and poorly correlated data being sold for money. Cure cancer by drinking your own fermented urine and not eating for 10 days kind of thing but as we know the more you dig the more you find. I don't think the mainstream has any idea to the extent of information on the internet and the amount of intelligent people who can learn and understand what used to be only reserved for people trained in allopathic medicine. I think if if you present to them with knowledge at the same level of their education that it will through them off and they become defensive and insecure.

I think this is pretty dead on except for the "under funded" part. The medical industry is like 20% of the US economy. There is an excess of funding, if anything. However, I would completely agree with the idea that it is poorly budgeted.

 

[tca300]

Ignorance is bliss, until it costs you or a loved one, their life.

 

[yerrag]

Ignorance is bliss, until it costs you or a loved one, their life.

Yes, it isn't bliss having lost some one. But not having known that the person could otherwise have been saved, it spares us the feeling of regret that it doesn't have to be that way. Most people just move on, many feel acceptance it's in their genes. Many feel happy and celebrate the long life of the one who passed away, not even knowing it could have been longer and more energetically healthy.

 

[raypeatclips]

Doctors have had to endure years and years of medical studying to be qualified to do their job. They must get so many people saying to them "Well I Googled the problem and I definitely have X" it probably irritates them and they switch off to what is being said, even if the patient is correct. While a completely different scenario, if someone came up to me at work and told me how to do my job, it would be pretty irritating.

Also there is the issue of following procedures. If a patient has an issue and the doctor gives the routine drug/treatment and something goes wrong, if they have followed procedure they are clear. If something goes wrong and they get investigated and they have deviated from the usual procedure, (Why didn't you give that drug? What did you do that for?) Their jobs could be at stake and potentially end up in prison, so there is very little benefit for them to stray from path set out for them.

 

[raypeatclips]

I agree it is very irritating dealing with doctors when you have an issue, and hearing them say the usual ingrained medical lies. When I was much younger travelled over an hour to speak to a consultant which specialised in a specific condition I had years ago. He spoke to me about a high tech, very expensive machine that could be used to help my issue. I had found a Youtube video that showed a DIY equivalent of this machine that cost less than £10. I mentioned this to him and he was intrigued and I offered to show him the video. He was speechless. He didn't know how to "save" Youtube videos so had me, in his office, during my appointment about my issue, help him email the link of the video to himself via his email so he could watch it again.

 

[yerrag]

Doctors have had to endure years and years of medical studying to be qualified to do their job. They must get so many people saying to them "Well I Googled the problem and I definitely have X" it probably irritates them and they switch off to what is being said, even if the patient is correct. While a completely different scenario, if someone came up to me at work and told me how to do my job, it would be pretty irritating.

Also there is the issue of following procedures. If a patient has an issue and the doctor gives the routine drug/treatment and something goes wrong, if they have followed procedure they are clear. If something goes wrong and they get investigated and they have deviated from the usual procedure, (Why didn't you give that drug? What did you do that for?) Their jobs could be at stake and potentially end up in prison, so there is very little benefit for them to stray from path set out for them.

Yes, that is the reality of the system. It is unfortunate. It becomes more about the doctor saving his own skin, than the doctor saving his patient. It's a dog eat dog world, and the hospital medical system is so much part of that world. Knowing that is the case at least puts us in a better perspective. Knowing that we have to avoid the hospital at all cost, and the way is to know to be healthy the right way. And we have many resources here in this website to help us live that life.

When we or family or friends are in a hospital, we can help them ,having this perspective. But since not all of them share our viewpoint, we can't force our ideas on them. In can be frustrating. My sister, for example, is a believer in labels. If the guy has a badge or the label M.D., she is all ears and bow to that lord for anything and everything medical. Not everybody can be helped. It is like a religion. Better to back off. It's a lost cause.

 

[Tarmander]

Over the years I have actually gained some respect for allopathic medicine. If you need your life saved they are the best.

Continuing care is just awful. Problems get solved by drugs or procedures that cause more problems and need other solutions. You break something, which needs surgery, which needs opiates, which constipates you and you need laxatives now, and the pain isn't controled so they are going to do a nerve block which needs antibiotics, which cause loose stools so you need more fluids/electrolytes and lactate which makes you cold and your circulation suffers which needs...etc etc...all from breaking a leg or something. Terrible!

There is also a compartimentalizing of medical care. Everyone has a very narrow well defined area of responsibility and they do not go out of it...which also means communication is terrible. They all ask the same questions and have their own treatments that sometimes conflict...

 

[yerrag]

If you need your life saved they are the best.

From accidents, yes. They're good. From infection, a mixed bag. From degenerative disease, really terrible.

 

[yerrag]

Truth Files

Doctor who had to leave the country is now exposing the big lie

Interesting. Wish I could download the mp3 files to listen to. Hard to listen from a computer.

 

[Marg]

Doctor who had to leave the country is now exposing the big lie

Thanks @ achilea , as I was just about to forward that link.

Dr. Jennifer Daniels, a brilliant female doctor, graduated from Harvard Medical School and Wharton with MBA. She often questioned her profs in medical school, and was met with their authoritarian tone, which followed in her internship and residency, when the 'standard of care' was apllied in a militaristic fashion, and the patients would often get worse in spite of all the high tech gagetry in the hospital setting, and doctors and medical staff were protected legally in most cases.

She was eventually forced to give up her medical license because of a hospital policy argument. She said that even if she didn't have this policy disagreement, the system would have eventually gotten to remove her because she stopped for the most part, given prescription drugs to her patients due to massive side effects; instead she was giving advise re healthy diet, herbs and stres reduction. She said that all doctors are monitored by boards and agencies (the Deep State) to make sure that they are prescribing drugs to most patients, and if not they are called to the board and either get a suspension or revocation.

If anyone here wants to get some chilling insights into how the medical system works, listen to some of those Truth Files. Very scary!!

The more I learn from this site and from Ray Peat, the more I realize how hard it is to go to a hospital and put myself in a hospital doctor's care. Does anyone else feel this way?

The more I learn from this site and from Ray Peat, the more I realize how hard it is to go to a hospital and put myself in a hospital doctor's care. Does anyone else feel this way?

I feel for you because you want to protect your mother. Keep vigilant, and let them know that you are not just a passive observer. I think as a whole, the medical establishment views well informed patients/families as nuisances. Use your knowledge and instincts. Hopefully, your mom will be out soon and health building can start.

My husband was recently in the hospital for a short stay and knowing what I know about the general medical system, I was on pins and needles until he got out.

They screwed up putting a simple line in his arm and it swelled up, and I was upset when I saw it. No nurses were coming around to place ice packs so I went to the nurse's station and I got the ice packs myself, and I was pissed off! On the other hand, some were wonderful and helpful.

The problem, as I see it, and Dr. Daniels explains so well, is how the criteria for the 'standard of care' by the medical establishment as a whole and by the implementation of specific policy in critical medical care, are shaped by the hospital's bottom line, which is profit; and for the most part, the medical system's impunity from legal liability, by following said policy even if there is potential for patient harm.

 

[tca300]

Yes, it isn't bliss having lost some one. But not having known that the person could otherwise have been saved, it spares us the feeling of regret that it doesn't have to be that way. Most people just move on, many feel acceptance it's in their genes. Many feel happy and celebrate the long life of the one who passed away, not even knowing it could have been longer and more energetically healthy.

I see what your saying. Except once one begins down the path of knowledge and skepticism, its nearly impossible to stop, and therefore pondering the ignorance being bliss concept is rather pointless, because that ship has not only sailed, it sank.

 

[Queequeg]

Truth Files

Doctor who had to leave the country is now exposing the big lie

Dr. Daniels is awesome. They actually tried to throw her out of medical school for asking too many questions and not being willing to fake some data for a research project. That's when she switched to Wharton to get another scholarship since the Med school took away hers. Amazingly resilient person.

If people looked at medicine as the for profit business it is then they would not be so blindly trusting in the experts and spend some time taking responsibility for their own health choices.

I just ran into this at a family get together where my brother was trying to convince my mother to start taking statins, like he does, for her high cholesterol. I had luckily emailed her a few articles on the dangers of statins the week before. I sat back with some pride as my mother rattled off all the dangers of statins as well as the neuro protective benefits of cholesterol in older people. As expected my brother and his mother in law could only parrot the "you cant trust the internet" meme i.e. you cant trust your own judgement and they would rather put their faith in a board certified cardiologist blah blah blah. No interest in reading any alternative points of views. Talk about Stockholm syndrome masquerading as blissful ignorance.

 

[Marg]

I just ran into this at a family get together where my brother was trying to convince my mother to start taking statins, like he does, for her high cholesterol. I had luckily emailed her a few articles on the dangers of statins the week before. I sat back with some pride as my mother rattled off all the dangers of statins as well as the neuro protective benefits of cholesterol in older people. As expected my brother and his mother in law could only parrot the "you cant trust the internet" meme i.e. you cant trust your own judgement and they would rather put their faith in a board certified cardiologist blah blah blah. No interest in reading any alternative points of views. Talk about Stockholm syndrome masquerading as blissful ignorance.

I'm so happy that your mother took your advice. I can relate to the indifference from the rest of the family.

I have tried to get family members to do some health research but it falls on deaf ears. The only one who listens to me is my husband, and he resisted at first but he eventually came around in time.

Most people find that it is a very foreign concept to be responsible for, and to participate in their own health care.

 

[Regina]

Its a real challenge, the nature of the industry, high stress, high pressure, under funded, understaffed, over worked, night shifts, fluorescent lights, politics in the workplace, I don't know how they can think clearly in the environment of the hospital. I think these people started off with good intentions and became complacent and rigid in their thinking, perhaps not able to clearly remember certain complex things and more focused on getting through the shift instead of being present with the patient. I do have respect for these people for committing their lives to helping people and the conditions they contend with.

I have been to a hospital recently to see a surgeon to get an MRI on my spine (herniated discs) I was humble, agreeable and cooperative and the young male surgeon who saw me was very aggressive, patronising, he was on edge and I tried to make a joke and lighten the mood up while examining me and wouldn't have bar of it. He interrogated me with questions about my history and symptoms and was frustrated with me when I took time to think before answering to be accurate in my communication, he was in a real hurry, rushing around, looked pale and exhausted, he didn't express the humanity one would expect from someone who saves peoples lives. He did a thorough test on all my nerve function and it all passed despite the injury. Didn't go ahead with the MRI.

Ive been pulled over and had the car and my person searched for drugs by police and they were more pleasant to deal with. I am always polite and respectful around authority, treat everyone like a human being understanding they are doing their job but the dr's are the worst I've come across.

I notice in the mainstream media there is shaming towards people looking on google for health advice, I understand the stereotype of googling some symptom and reading the first thing that pops up and the fact that there is over 1500 different diets available with a lot bs and poorly correlated data being sold for money. Cure cancer by drinking your own fermented urine and not eating for 10 days kind of thing but as we know the more you dig the more you find. I don't think the mainstream has any idea to the extent of information on the internet and the amount of intelligent people who can learn and understand what used to be only reserved for people trained in allopathic medicine. I think if if you present to them with knowledge at the same level of their education that it will through them off and they become defensive and insecure.

nice summary

 

[tara]

Knowing Dr. Peat's views on cataract surgery

What has he said about this?

 

[yerrag]

Thanks @ achilea , as I was just about to forward that link.

Dr. Jennifer Daniels, a brilliant female doctor, graduated from Harvard Medical School and Wharton with MBA. She often questioned her profs in medical school, and was met with their authoritarian tone, which followed in her internship and residency, when the 'standard of care' was apllied in a militaristic fashion, and the patients would often get worse in spite of all the high tech gagetry in the hospital setting, and doctors and medical staff were protected legally in most cases.

She was eventually forced to give up her medical license because of a hospital policy argument. She said that even if she didn't have this policy disagreement, the system would have eventually gotten to remove her because she stopped for the most part, given prescription drugs to her patients due to massive side effects; instead she was giving advise re healthy diet, herbs and stres reduction. She said that all doctors are monitored by boards and agencies (the Deep State) to make sure that they are prescribing drugs to most patients, and if not they are called to the board and either get a suspension or revocation.

If anyone here wants to get some chilling insights into how the medical system works, listen to some of those Truth Files. Very scary!!






I feel for you because you want to protect your mother. Keep vigilant, and let them know that you are not just a passive observer. I think as a whole, the medical establishment views well informed patients/families as nuisances. Use your knowledge and instincts. Hopefully, your mom will be out soon and health building can start.

My husband was recently in the hospital for a short stay and knowing what I know about the general medical system, I was on pins and needles until he got out.

They screwed up putting a simple line in his arm and it swelled up, and I was upset when I saw it. No nurses were coming around to place ice packs so I went to the nurse's station and I got the ice packs myself, and I was pissed off! On the other hand, some were wonderful and helpful.

The problem, as I see it, and Dr. Daniels explains so well, is how the criteria for the 'standard of care' by the medical establishment as a whole and by the implementation of specific policy in critical medical care, are shaped by the hospital's bottom line, which is profit; and for the most part, the medical system's impunity from legal liability, by following said policy even if there is potential for patient harm.

Thanks Marq. I'm glad we're not standing there helpless, trying to shape the odds back in our favor in our own way, in a hospital system, be it named after a saint or a hero or for children, that has profit as their altar, and patients being milked to sustain that monstrous system.

I see what your saying. Except once one begins down the path of knowledge and skepticism, its nearly impossible to stop, and therefore pondering the ignorance being bliss concept is rather pointless, because that ship has not only sailed, it sank.

Yeah :-(

Dr. Daniels is awesome. They actually tried to throw her out of medical school for asking too many questions and not being willing to fake some data for a research project. That's when she switched to Wharton to get another scholarship since the Med school took away hers. Amazingly resilient person.

If people looked at medicine as the for profit business it is then they would not be so blindly trusting in the experts and spend some time taking responsibility for their own health choices.

I just ran into this at a family get together where my brother was trying to convince my mother to start taking statins, like he does, for her high cholesterol. I had luckily emailed her a few articles on the dangers of statins the week before. I sat back with some pride as my mother rattled off all the dangers of statins as well as the neuro protective benefits of cholesterol in older people. As expected my brother and his mother in law could only parrot the "you cant trust the internet" meme i.e. you cant trust your own judgement and they would rather put their faith in a board certified cardiologist blah blah blah. No interest in reading any alternative points of views. Talk about Stockholm syndrome masquerading as blissful ignorance.

Your mother is an open-minded person and your brother not. I have to confess that I get so mad at my sister that I would swear that when she gets really sick, I'll leave her to the dogs - err, doctors, I mean. Your open-mindedness probably comes from your mother also, just like mine came from my father. It's so important that we aren't left to be educated by institutions, they don't ever teach us to think. But it amazes me you have a brother and I a sister that somehow didn't get that bit of valuable training from our parents. Some people simply elect to take the other pill - bliss!

I'm so happy that your mother took your advice. I can relate to the indifference from the rest of the family.

I have tried to get family members to do some health research but it falls on deaf ears. The only one who listens to me is my husband, and he resisted at first but he eventually came around in time.

Most people find that it is a very foreign concept to be responsible for, and to participate in their own health care.

Congratulations that your patience paid off. I think we have to keep poking at the points of vulnerability untl we find the chink in their armor. I think about the doctor who attends to my mom. I know she has an infant. I think that if I sent her some links of Ray Peat talking about brain development and sugar and intelligence, and the counter-effects of PUFAs , she may read them and start thinking about the line of work she does, and come over to our side.