Buteyko - First Post Here. Hi :)

[Valentino]

Hi All,

My first post here. I've been dipping in and out of this forum for many years as a lurker and have had a very up and down time with my health and with trying to apply Ray Peat's work. One of the problems I've had has certainly related to the lower functioning of my mind when my metabolism has been low. The effect is only really noticeable as you get better. This has meant that I haven't been able to think very rationally about Ray's work for large periods of time, and given the nature of his writing, you really need to be able to do this.

I think that Ray's work is difficult to understand as his analysis comes from a very different perspective from most. When he looks at a certain data point, he is viewing it, for instance, in the context of a certain view of cell structure, creating different interactions with substances whose significance takes on new meaning within the overall view, eg, in the presence of carbon dioxide, the structure, function and ability to produce energy of an organism is essentially transitioned into a different phase from when CO2 is not present.

With this in mind, I find it very difficult to criticise his work, as I don't really believe that I fully understand its implications. I often find myself looking at the results of some study and believing that it nullifies a given Peatism, only to find, years later, after a few more connections have been made in my mind, dots connected, that the study may even actually corroborate his idea. We are left with self-experimentation, which itself is not at all easy, especially when you don't really understand all the possible variables that could be influencing your state of health at any given moment. Eg, you may start taking a supplement and think that nothing else has changed in your environment and put any changes down to that, when perhaps changes could be occurring from interactions with the new supplement to something that isn't on your radar, or perhaps even from something completely new that you are not aware of. An incomplete view lays down many confounding variable mines.

My question, with this context, is to do with Buteyko. Ray has given a few interviews about the Buteyko breathing technique and I seem to remember him saying that he met him, or at least knew of his work and respected it, given Buteyko's view of CO2 in in the body. For those not aware, Buteyko taught his students/patients to reduce their breathing in order to increase CO2 levels in the body to cure all manner of chronic diseases, which he termed "diseases of civilisation". He did a lot of very detailed research, which, as I said, Ray said that he greatly respected. One key finding of Buteyko, was that as CO2 levels of patients increased, not only did all of their diseases disappear, ie, they started functioning optimally, but there was a very clear and predictable decrease in heart rate as CO2 levels rose, with pulses around mid to high 40s for the healthiest of specimens - as measured by CO2 level and freedom from disease.

The freedom from disease bit could be interpreted in many ways, so I'll ignore that, but there was a definited correlation between higher CO2 and lower pulse.
This seems to be at odds with my current understanding of Ray's ideas.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this correlation?

PS, for the Americans here, please excuse my British spelling.

 

[tara]

Valentino,

I was reading about Buteyko before I found Peat's writing too.

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97255/ The freedom from disease bit could be interpreted in many ways, so I'll ignore that, but there was a definited correlation between higher CO2 and lower pulse.

There are one or two threads discussing this issue.
My current speculation is that using the Control Pause as the key indicator of CO2 levels does not adequately account for all the variations in metabolism. If one assumes that CP is always goes up with higher CO2 set point, and down with lower CO2 level , one could mistakenly take someone with very low metabolism, and therefore witha low breathing and pulse rate, as having good CO2 levels. IIRC, there is mention in one of Peat's articles of a man whose resting breathing rate was just 3 or 4 per minute, because his metabolism was extremely low.

In some situations, where heart rate is elevated by stress hormones, increasing CO2 levels is likely to reduce the stress response, and therefore lower heartrate, which is probably a good thing.

I learned a lot from reading Rakhimov's normalbreathing site. However, I suspect his reliance on CP leads him to encourage a level of endurance exercise that is likely to reduce metabolism and heart rate, and increase stress levels, and which may not reflect optimal CO2 and tissue oxygenation. Unless he has changed his position since I was reading him 2-3 yars ago, Rakhimove was encouraging consumption of "EFAs", guided by effects on CP. I think this may be mistaken for similar reasons - that is, on may be able to increase CP by lowering metabolism with fish oil supplements etc, but this does not reflect better CO2 levels and better oxygenation.

There is a talk by Peat to a Buteyko group. He confirms their recognition of the importance of CO2, but does not necessarily endorse everything else in the Buteyko method.

 

[Valentino]

Tara,

Hi!
"My current speculation is that using the Control Pause as the key indicator of CO2 levels does not adequately account for all the variations in metabolism."

Buteyko did a lot of measurements using very accurate equipment and showed that the CP correlates very well with the CP. I agree that a high CP doesn't necessarily correlate perfectly with a high metabolism. If CP correlates well with CO2 levels, which I think it does, then the spurious link, if there is one, would be between CO2 levels and metabolism. Having a high CP means that you have successfully reset the breathing centre in the brain and that you aren't flooding your body with oxygen and have a higher CO2 content. This doesn't necessarily mean that your cells are putting out a lot of CO2 from high metabolism and doesn't negate the possibility of a deranged metabolism due to PUFA or whatever.

"one could mistakenly take someone with very low metabolism, and therefore witha low breathing and pulse rate, as having good CO2 levels. IIRC, there is mention in one of Peat's articles of a man whose resting breathing rate was just 3 or 4 per minute, because his metabolism was extremely low."

I agree that such a case is possible, but it is very unlikely that this would be correlated with freedom from disease and an otherwise healthy individual. Even if it was, it would be unlikely that this effect would account for the correlation in the figures across many subjects.

"I suspect his reliance on CP leads him to encourage a level of endurance exercise that is likely to reduce metabolism and heart rate, and increase stress levels, and which may not reflect optimal CO2 and tissue oxygenation. Unless he has changed his position since I was reading him 2-3 yars ago, Rakhimove was encouraging consumption of "EFAs", guided by effects on CP."

I agree that many of the recommendations that are given in the name of increasing CO2 are misguided, but I don't see that this means that CP is a bad measure.

"I think this may be mistaken for similar reasons - that is, on may be able to increase CP by lowering metabolism with fish oil supplements etc, but this does not reflect better CO2 levels and better oxygenation."

I do not think that it is necessarily the supplements etc that are increasing CP. I expect that the CP is increasing despite the supplements and exercise etc, which I expect is probably testament to the efficacy of increasing the CO2 level in the body.

I think that an important question would be - does the mere presence of CO2 in the body allow efficient metabolism? There are many other factors required for oxidative metabolism to occur, so this may remove a common choke point, but could there be other bottlenecks?

I still think that, given the apparently well documented relationship between CP and CO2 levels (not necessarily metabolism though), it seems strange that there is an inverse linear relationship between CP and heart rate, especially as subjects seemed to be far more healthy as CP increased, and hence, at least on average, disease diminished. From what Ray has said, you would expect to see more variance in this relationship.

The only data that I have seen on this has been presented without the studies attached, so it's possible that the data is just unreliable.

 

[Valentino]

Tara,

One other factor that I forgot to mention is that those with high CPs also had low heart rates before they did a breathing excercise as well as after. If they were stressed you might expect to see a high heart rate to begin with, which then drastically lowered after raising CO2, which could be interpreted as exposing a low metabolism once the stress response was removed, but this was not the case.

It would have been really nice to have seen the temperatures of these subjects as well as the pulse.

Anecdotally, I have found that my heart rate always decreases when my CP increases, even when my temperatures are rock solid, dead on 98.6F/37C.

 

[tara]

CO2 does do a lot of good things in the system, so it wouldn't surprise me if it helps protect against many of the hazards of stress and low metabolism. It really can improve delivery of oxygen and other nutrients, and calm overactive nerves, etc. Chronic hidden hyperventilation may be so common that reversing this would make a key difference for many people. But the Buteyko method also did recognise other factors as being important too, I think. Getting adequate nutrition would still seem to be a necessary condition for efficient oxidative metabolism. I'm a little unclear about how much of Rakhimovs recommendations are standard Buteyko method, or whether any of them are his own adaptations. Rakhimov refers to the importance of various micronutrients, eg magnesium, and keeping blood sugar up at adequate levels during breathing training, eg by eating honey, etc, too.
Maybe good CO2 levels are one of the factors that would support good thyroid funcion, but I'd be surprised if it could completely compensate for inadequate thyroid hormones, if there is existing damage to this system.
I don't see how one could have a really strong metabolism under conditions of chronic food insufficiency, etc, however successfully one had retrained one's CO2 set point - oxygen is needed, but so is fuel to burn, and protein, and vitamins, and minerals.

That low metabolism person I referred to definitely did not have good health - the story was in conjuction with major surgery required for sth serious - can't remember what, but I'm pretty sure it was degenerative, not accidental trauma. But if CP does correspond well to CO2 levels, as you say, I guess that means his CO2 levels were highish, and this was not adequate protection from whatever ailed him.

 

[tara]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97351/ One other factor that I forgot to mention is that those with high CPs also had low heart rates before they did a breathing excercise as well as after. If they were stressed you might expect to see a high heart rate to begin with, which then drastically lowered after raising CO2, which could be interpreted as exposing a low metabolism once the stress response was removed, but this was not the case.

I meant lower compared with average. If they have a good CP, then I would expect that means the CO2 levels are good most of the time, not just immediately after breathing exercises, so that may protect against some of the common symptoms of stress most of the time?

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97351/ It would have been really nice to have seen the temperatures of these subjects as well as the pulse.

Yes. Wouldn't surprise me if Buteyko collected such data in his more intensive studies.

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97351/ Anecdotally, I have found that my heart rate always decreases when my CP increases, even when my temperatures are rock solid, dead on 98.6F/37C.

Interesting. I never succeeded in getting my CP up much. But it seldom gets as bad as it was before.

 

[Valentino]

Interestingly, in free diving (where people dive underwater very deep without breathing aparatus), they talk about the Mammalian Diving Response, where humans and seals etc can dive deep underwater, and this is characterised in all cases by Bradycardia, - slowing of the heart beat, as well as increased CO2 levels. I don't know if free divers are particularly healthy or not.

 

[Nicholas]

is it logical to assume that people with good levels of CO2 in body breathe Buteyko whether they know of him or not?

 

[tara]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97369/ is it logical to assume that people with good levels of CO2 in body breathe Buteyko whether they know of him or not?

As I understand it, Buteyko devised his method to counter the health problems commonly caused or exacerbated by hyperventilation, including chronic hidden hyperventilation (ie the kind that we can do all the time unawarely just breathing more than optimally). People who do not have any hyperventilation habits, ie who breathe 'normally' would be expected to have reasonable CO2 levels, and may not have so much to learn/gain from the method, though some people push it further in order to get even better health.

You can measure your own Control Pause easily - this is the key test in Buteyko method to determine how your CO2 levels/tissue oxygenation are.

Reduced breathing is a central part of Buteyko method, but he had other recommendations too.

I think Buteyko reduced breathing method is one of several techniques that can improve breathing, posture, CO2 levels, and associated health parameters. Traditional yogic pranayama and other methods employ different techniques, but I would expect them to have similar effects and benefits wrt CO2, if done well. I've not pursued any of them far enough to get good results.

 

[Valentino]

With respect to the heart rate issue - if you increase CO2 then you are going to get a vasodilation effect. Wouldn't this lower heart rate?

I would have thought that endogenous CO2 production would probably mean a higher metabolism by definition, but I'm not so sure that increasing CO2 levels by breathing methods would necessarily do so. Eg, if you took a diabetic and gave them a carbon dioxide and oxygen mix with high levels of CO2 in it would they suddenly start having a good metabolism? I would guess not, given that their issue is with PUFA. If you pour water into a bowl with a hole, it just runs away.

In this example, if you increased CO2 levels, but not metabolism, you would get a lower heart rate via vasodilation, without the offsetting effect on heart rate via increased metabolism.

However, this still doesn't explain the observation that subjects with lower heart rates were more free of chronic disease. It's quite possible that this isn't true, of course, because I've been unable to find any of Buteyko's original studies. He was working in Russia, so this isn't all that surprising.

 

[tomisonbottom]

My question, with this context, is to do with Buteyko. Ray has given a few interviews about the Buteyko breathing technique and I seem to remember him saying that he met him, or at least knew of his work and respected it, given Buteyko's view of CO2 in in the body. For those not aware, Buteyko taught his students/patients to reduce their breathing in order to increase CO2 levels in the body to cure all manner of chronic diseases, which he termed "diseases of civilisation". He did a lot of very detailed research, which, as I said, Ray said that he greatly respected. One key finding of Buteyko, was that as CO2 levels of patients increased, not only did all of their diseases disappear, ie, they started functioning optimally, but there was a very clear and predictable decrease in heart rate as CO2 levels rose, with pulses around mid to high 40s for the healthiest of specimens - as measured by CO2 level and freedom from disease..

Can you tell me where you found the info that mentions the lower heart rates? Thanks.

 

[m_arch]

Ray is quoted somewhere saying that increase co2 will increase the volume of blood pumped per heart beat and might reduce the resting heart rate (but it didn't sound like it'd be indicative of a slower metabolism)

 

[tomisonbottom]

I emailed him asking about it and this was his answer:

"CO2 relaxes blood vessels, reducing resistance to flow, and that can allow the heart to pump a larger volume with each stroke; it depends partly on how much stress the person was under. Adrenalin causes a faster heart beat, but can increase peripheral resistance and decrease venous return, leading to a smaller stroke volume. The anti-excitatory effect of CO2 probably lowers adrenalin.
When stress and peripheral resistance aren’t the problem, then the tissue oxygen consumption, stroke volume, and heart rate can all increase together, with increased CO2 production, if the metabolic rate increases, as with improved thyroid function. CO2 tends to lower lactate production, and lactate can accelerate the heart, so that change of metabolism is probably involved."

Neurosci Lett. 2009 Apr 10;453(3):219-24.
Production of panic-like symptoms by lactate is associated with increased neural
firing and oxidation of brain redox in the rat hippocampus.
Bergold PJ(1), Pinkhasova V, Syed M, Kao HY, Jozwicka A, Zhao N, Coplan JD,
Dow-Edwards D, Fenton AA.
(1)Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, SUNY-Downstate Medical Center,
Brooklyn, NY 11203, United States. [email protected]
Lactate uses an unknown mechanism to induce panic attacks in people and
panic-like symptoms in rodents. We tested whether intraperitoneal (IP) lactate
injections act peripherally or centrally to induce panic-like symptoms in rats by
examining whether IP lactate directly affects the CNS. In Long-Evans rats, IP
lactate (2 mmol/kg) injection increased lactate levels in the plasma and the
cerebrospinal fluid. IP lactate also induced tachycardia and behavioral freezing
suggesting the production of panic-like behavior. To enter intermediate
metabolism, lactate is oxidized by lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) to pyruvate with
co-reduction of NAD(+) to NADH. Therefore, we measured the ratio of NADH/NAD(+)
to test whether IP lactate altered lactate metabolism in the CNS. Lactate
metabolism was studied in the hippocampus, a brain region believed to contribute
to panic-like symptoms. IP lactate injection lowered the ratio of NADH/NAD(+)
without altering the total amount of NADH and NAD(+) suggesting oxidation of
hippocampal redox state. Lactate oxidized hippocampal redox since
intrahippocampal injection of the LDH inhibitor, oxamate (50mM) prevented the
oxidation of NADH/NAD(+) by IP lactate. In addition to oxidizing hippocampal
redox, IP lactate rapidly increased the firing rate of hippocampal neurons.
Similar IP pyruvate injections had no effect. Neural discharge also increased
following intrahippocampal lactate injection suggesting that increased discharge
was a direct action of lactate on the hippocampus. These studies show that
oxidation of brain redox and increased hippocampal firing are direct actions of
lactate on the CNS that may contribute to the production of lactate-induced
panic.

 

[tomisonbottom]

So, basically it sounds like the decreased pulse is because most people who are doing it are starting in a stress state and the lowered stress, temporary lowers pulse, but as long as metabolism steadily increased, the pulse would probably go back up eventually.