Why Raising Metabolism May NOT Rise CO2; Effect Of Drugs And Temperature On CO2 Tolerance

[Blossom]

I don't see any value in breathing CO2 from a tank. There is data from submarines which have CO2 concentrations of up to 10,000 ppm after some days underwater. Most crew start hyperventilating when exposed to this much CO2. After about one month they become more CO2 tollerant and reduce their minute volume. This means one would have to do tank breathing for an equally long time to see results. This will be much more expensive than e.g. rising the CO2 by walking, but won't fit as good into lifes as walking a lot.

Thank you, this is very helpful.

 

[Evgenius]

@Dr. C have you tested if drinking carbonated drinks or taking baking soda in water can raise CO2 levels ?

 

[Dr. C]

@Dr. C have you tested if drinking carbonated drinks or taking baking soda in water can raise CO2 levels ?

Yes. Both technically rises your CO2. But the source of CO2 is irrelevant. It's the same substance whether your body produces it or you take it. But as soon as your CO2 rises, your ventilation goes up - unless you consiusly control it!

If I administered 50cc of 8.4% Sodiumhydrogencarbonate to you, you basically would get a CO2 of maybe 65 mmHg. But this does not happen, because at e.g. 51 mmHg you will feel a massive ventilatory drive which will make you hyperventilate to bring down your CO2 to at least your setpoint (and most likely even lower). By the way, if your breathing reflex would not kick in, you would become severely acidic from that much NaHCO3- which actually will threaten your life.

It is very hard to tollerate a lot of CO2. Only a little is possible, but only if you contiously control your breathing all the time. As I wrote earlier today, based on data from submarines it seems to take about one month to develop a high CO2 tollerance automatically when being exposed to high CO2 ALL THE TIME.

Drinking carbonated water or taking 1-3 grams of baking soda will not create any CO2 tollerance I guess because it will also slightly rise your minute ventilation volume.

 

[jitsmonkey]

Yes. Both technically rises your CO2. But the source of CO2 is irrelevant. It's the same substance whether your body produces it or you take it. But as soon as your CO2 rises, your ventilation goes up - unless you consiusly control it!

If I administered 50cc of 8.4% Sodiumhydrogencarbonate to you, you basically would get a CO2 of maybe 65 mmHg. But this does not happen, because at e.g. 51 mmHg you will feel a massive ventilatory drive which will make you hyperventilate to bring down your CO2 to at least your setpoint (and most likely even lower). By the way, if your breathing reflex would not kick in, you would become severely acidic from that much NaHCO3- which actually will threaten your life.

It is very hard to tollerate a lot of CO2. Only a little is possible, but only if you contiously control your breathing all the time. As I wrote earlier today, based on data from submarines it seems to take about one month to develop a high CO2 tollerance automatically when being exposed to high CO2 ALL THE TIME.

Drinking carbonated water or taking 1-3 grams of baking soda will not create any CO2 tollerance I guess because it will also slightly rise your minute ventilation volume.

@Dr. C I just want to say thank you for these contributions.
some of the best first hand clinical/practical contributions on this forum I've seen.

 

[Runenight201]

I think practicing intense breathwork for hours a day, for life would change the CO2 setpoint. There are reports of yogis who only need to breath once a twice a minute, it would reason that their CO2 set point is very high. It seems like short of changing your CO2 set point, all other measures of increasing CO2 have only immediate short term therapeutic value, and won’t have long term effects.

 

[ilikecats]

@Dr. C I just want to say thank you for these contributions.
some of the best first hand clinical/practical contributions on this forum I've seen.

+1 thank you @Dr. C . This really explains a lot. Most Buteyko practitioners recommend things that actually lower CO2 production (low carb, cold exposure etc...) and now I can understand why. They’re able to increase their control pause and lower breathing rate through these methods but this is partially through the lowering of CO2 production. This also explains why most of peats ideas end up lowering the control pause. But the combination of practicing reduced breathing and increasing CO2 production might be the ticket to achieve next level health and longevity! Would you agree?

 

[Dr. C]

Yes, I am sure it is possible to change the CO2 setpoint, but it seems to take a lof of time.

Unfortunately it seems to me like there is no hack to do this (but I wish there was). It just may take year long focus on breathing.

My own approach is to stop hyperventilating in stressful situation (kind of the backward approach), because it is easy for me to bring down my breathing frequency to about 6/min and really rising my CO2. But when I get into a stressful situation or just into the flow focusing on a challenging piece of work or just a good movie, my breathing frequency moves easily up to 23/min. and my CO2 falls. This happens actually most often when driving on the freeway be the way.

Currently I am using a Spire tracker to alarm me of these situations that I can stop this habit of hyperventilating. I also pay close attention to never breath through my mouth.

This accompanied by walking a lot (while tollerating the high CO2, meaning resisting to breath more even if I feel like it) is my current way of reaching a higher control pause. I started with less than 10 sec., normal days are about 25 sec. now. When I fast (which I practise every 3 month for the purpose of autophagy - with lots of Vitamine E supplements of course - I can push the control pause to up to 37 max. But my etCO2 is no higher than with the 25 sec. control pause in a fed state. So this is exactly why the tipps of Arthour & Co mentioned above are no real help. This is my a higher metabolism lowers the control pause. But neither of those is able to manipulate the CO2 tollerance (which is the goal), it only influences the CO2 production and therefore the control pause.

 

[The Seeker]

I have managed to significantly increase my CO2 tolerance using several techniques. As the Russians discovered, this is really the key to being able to increase your CO2 levels all day 24×7, even while sleeping. If you don't manage to do this, it's pretty tough to get any of the benefits of CO2.

I became very interested in the importance of CO2 and Buteyko Breathing in mid April of 2017. I think the concept of measuring a "Control Pause" or CP, from the Buteyko method is the best method to gauge one's progress. While not perfect, I haven't found anything more objective.

My starting CP (a measure of how long one can hold one' breath without stress - NOT A MAXIMUM OR ANYWHERE NEAR MAXIMUM HOLD) was 12 seconds. This was a very low number as the goal for Buteyko instructors in Russia was 60 seconds.

I was already a very lean, well conditioned athlete with robust health and no health challenges whatsoever so this number really surprised me.

I have now gotten my daily CP to between 40-53 seconds. And I have noticed a huge performance increase in my physical training program as well as lowered resting heart rate and a very noticeable feeling of well being. I always try lots of different "hacks" to improve my health but in general I never notice anything major so Buteyko really delivered.

It took a TREMENDOUS amount of effort and increasing CO2 tolerance is something that does indeed deliver huge benefits but I found it time consuming.

Here are the main things that helped:

1)Taping my mouth at night. This is the single biggest bang for your buck in my opinion. Just use micropore (surgical) tape before going to sleep as it prevents mouth breathing and forces you to breath through your nose during the most difficult time - while unconscious. Remember that when you breathe through your nose your body's CO2 levels are higher because on your outbreath, the CO2 rich air from the bottom of your lungs (which is where most of the gas exchange happens) stays trapped in 150-200 cc of "dead space" in your nasal passages. Then, on your next breath in, that CO2 is taken back into the lungs, keeping your overall level of CO2 higher.

The best way I've seen to try to validate this without a capnometer is the Oura Ring which does a good job of sleep tracking. I've been using it for about two years and it is pretty accurate. Because CO2 is a potent vasodilator, you'll notice that your heart rate is lower when CO2 is higher. Simply track your sleep for a week or two without taping. Then tape your mouth as Buteyko recommends and measure another week or two. Compare ave heart rate. You'll see a difference as well as probably notice that you awake more rested.

This is the easiest "hack" and delivers the most for the least effort but it will probably only raise your CP modestly. But it has radically improved sleep for many of my friends and over a dozen of them continue to do it.


2)Buteyko breathing exercises of restricted breathing with a pulse oximeter. Read a Buteyko book (I like the ones by Artour Rakhimov the best) or use the app by Advanced Buteyko Institute (Free to start but you'll need to pay to unlock & go further) while using a pulse oximeter to make sure you get your arterial O2 low. It's the only surrogate measure that correlates perfectly with increased CO2. This was the biggest contributor to my increased CP - especially from 12 to 35.


3)Physical Training with nasal breathing only. Hiking hills, stair climber, weight training and other cardio breathing only through my nose. It seemed impossible at first but I can now hold 173 beats per minute cardio exercise with nasal breathing only. Like the submarine data, you will need to give your breathing center some time to acclimate WITHIN the session. I can't hold 173 out of the gate but can get myself there over 10 min or so.


4)Continually remind yourself throughout the day to restrict your breathing. You'll need to become obsessed with this idea or you won't remember often enough.

 

[Runenight201]

I have managed to significantly increase my CO2 tolerance using several techniques. As the Russians discovered, this is really the key to being able to increase your CO2 levels all day 24×7, even while sleeping. If you don't manage to do this, it's pretty tough to get any of the benefits of CO2.

I became very interested in the importance of CO2 and Buteyko Breathing in mid April of 2017. I think the concept of measuring a "Control Pause" or CP, from the Buteyko method is the best method to gauge one's progress. While not perfect, I haven't found anything more objective.

My starting CP (a measure of how long one can hold one' breath without stress - NOT A MAXIMUM OR ANYWHERE NEAR MAXIMUM HOLD) was 12 seconds. This was a very low number as the goal for Buteyko instructors in Russia was 60 seconds.

I was already a very lean, well conditioned athlete with robust health and no health challenges whatsoever so this number really surprised me.

I have now gotten my daily CP to between 40-53 seconds. And I have noticed a huge performance increase in my physical training program as well as lowered resting heart rate and a very noticeable feeling of well being. I always try lots of different "hacks" to improve my health but in general I never notice anything major so Buteyko really delivered.

It took a TREMENDOUS amount of effort and increasing CO2 tolerance is something that does indeed deliver huge benefits but I found it time consuming.

Here are the main things that helped:

1)Taping my mouth at night. This is the single biggest bang for your buck in my opinion. Just use micropore (surgical) tape before going to sleep as it prevents mouth breathing and forces you to breath through your nose during the most difficult time - while unconscious. Remember that when you breathe through your nose your body's CO2 levels are higher because on your outbreath, the CO2 rich air from the bottom of your lungs (which is where most of the gas exchange happens) stays trapped in 150-200 cc of "dead space" in your nasal passages. Then, on your next breath in, that CO2 is taken back into the lungs, keeping your overall level of CO2 higher.

The best way I've seen to try to validate this without a capnometer is the Oura Ring which does a good job of sleep tracking. I've been using it for about two years and it is pretty accurate. Because CO2 is a potent vasodilator, you'll notice that your heart rate is lower when CO2 is higher. Simply track your sleep for a week or two without taping. Then tape your mouth as Buteyko recommends and measure another week or two. Compare ave heart rate. You'll see a difference as well as probably notice that you awake more rested.

This is the easiest "hack" and delivers the most for the least effort but it will probably only raise your CP modestly. But it has radically improved sleep for many of my friends and over a dozen of them continue to do it.


2)Buteyko breathing exercises of restricted breathing with a pulse oximeter. Read a Buteyko book (I like the ones by Artour Rakhimov the best) or use the app by Advanced Buteyko Institute (Free to start but you'll need to pay to unlock & go further) while using a pulse oximeter to make sure you get your arterial O2 low. It's the only surrogate measure that correlates perfectly with increased CO2. This was the biggest contributor to my increased CP - especially from 12 to 35.


3)Physical Training with nasal breathing only. Hiking hills, stair climber, weight training and other cardio breathing only through my nose. It seemed impossible at first but I can now hold 173 beats per minute cardio exercise with nasal breathing only. Like the submarine data, you will need to give your breathing center some time to acclimate WITHIN the session. I can't hold 173 out of the gate but can get myself there over 10 min or so.


4)Continually remind yourself throughout the day to restrict your breathing. You'll need to become obsessed with this idea or you won't remember often enough.

Good post, I think I'll go buy some surgical tape and try it out tonight, I've been delaying it for a while.

In regards to number 3, I was doing some strict nasal breathing high intensity interval biking today, and on my last couple sets I really pushed myself, and by the time my bpm got up to 162, I felt a very noticeable surge of warmth rush to my arms and hands.

Number 4...im not sure I agree with. It's like the person with poor posture having to constantly remind themselves to sit up straight, when in reality it's usually a combination of a lack of energy and poor core neuro-musculature control, strength, and length-tension relationships...Fixing the latter two issues allows for a person to have proper posture without even thinking about it, whereas constantly reminding themselves to sit up straight is a physical toll on their mental and physical energy because there is so much energy required to move the body into a position that is unnatural and weak to itself. I believe the core issues have to be addressed so that proper physiological functioning happens subconsciously while the conscious is free to direct itself to tasks at hand.