Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance building

Ben

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http://www.benzo.org.uk/amisc/ashdiag.pdf

According to RP, progesterone and pregnenolone both act on the GABA receptor as agonists, while estrogen acts on the GABA receptor as an antagonist. GABA has similar protective inhibitory effects as glycine, found in gelatin.

This paper stated that tolerance builds to benzodiazepines, and the authors think it involves GABA receptor desensitization and N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor sensitization, because withdrawal is particularly harsh and includes excitation. RP stated that NMDA is a receptor activated by excitatory amino acids and should be minimized.

That's unavoidable with drugs. However, patients showed reduced symptoms and less medical visits if they successfully quit the drugs. They had less anxiety if they quit the drugs and were eventually free of withdrawal symptoms. Side effects on concentration and memory also disappeared. It doesn't appear that these drugs have any cognitive benefits in the long-term, quite the opposite. Alcohol is another GABA agonist, but it has harmful health effects like toxicity, so obviously it's not beneficial. Barbiturates stimulate GABA too, but they have similar long-term effects to benzodiazepines and also lead to tolerance. Opiates are harmful in general, so the endorphin agonists are out.

Receptors are pretty complicated. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist that can lead to the receptor's sensitization, and yet it's healthy in many ways. Tianeptine avoids a backlash of serotonin receptor sensitivity somehow, because it only causes withdrawal symptoms at very high doses, and I'm guessing it's the same way for other antagonists like LSD. RP sometimes recommends dopamine agonists like lisuride.

I once read a source that stated that there was less brain GABA receptors and more brain norepinephrine receptors in hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism showed the opposite pattern (I may have mixed them up, but whatever, I couldn't find the source), because the conditions would alter the amounts of GABA and norepinephrine. So one could expect progesterone/pregnenolone/GABA/glycine/alanine to reduce the amount/sensitivity of GABA receptors and estrogen/aspartate/glutamate to increase the amount/sensitivity of GABA receptors. Or vice versa on NMDA agonists. It would theoretically be the same way with NMDA antagonists, no chronic benefits because of receptor adaption.

I was interested in benzodiazepines because I found out they can slow breathing. By slowing breathing, one can allow CO2 to build up, which has protective benefits like reducing serotonin, histamine, and DNA methylation. Now I wonder which substances reduce the rate of respiration without building tolerance.

Progesterone increases the amount of CO2 that is retained in tissues, but it increases the rate of respiration. Study subjects that took epsom salt baths (magnesium salts) urinated out excess magnesium, limiting blood levels. Sodium increases CO2 production and reduces adrenalin, which may reduce respiration rate, but the kidney also limits the amount that can be retained. I'm taking high-dose niacinamide and taurine, but my respiration isn't slower. Acetazolamide, a carbon anhydrase inhibitor, increases respiration by tricking the body into thinking there is too much CO2. It also excretes sodium and potassium, while normally higher CO2 retains electrolytes and provides stability in the CO2 level this way.

GHB (Gamma hydroxybutyrate) appears to have withrawal and tolerance build up. It contains butyric acid, a short-chain saturated fatty acid, which is why GHB could be expected to have chronic positive effects. But it doesn't due to tolerance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12837642

The NMDA antagonists I looked at are tolerance-forming, and I doubt any others would avoid this.

GABA itself or glycine are possible candidates, but I don't know whether they would cause receptor tolerance. I plan on trying them soon anyway.

So what's a substance that can chronically reduce respiration rate without tolerance? I can't seem to find any. In fact, I'm not sure if it's possible to activate GABA receptors without tolerance building up, and I'm not sure if substances like progesterone or glycine lead to receptor desensitization or a reduced number of receptors. It could also be possible to reduce respiration rate with serotonin antagonists like shrooms, LSD, or mescaline.

A few of you might say it's best to focus on general health, but that's what CO2 is. I think CO2 is the most general chemical of health in all living beings. It deserves more focus. One can improve diet to a certain extent, but if the person still breathes a lot, then that is neglecting the most improvable and possibly the most important aspect of their health. Gut health, for example, is important, but it doesn't just include eating the right food. CO2 can increase a person's capacity to digest food by increasing oxygen in the cells of the gastrointestinal tract, and prevent incomplete digestion of sugars, for example, which can feed bacteria and increase endotoxin formation.
 

bradley

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

Diamox?
 
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Ben

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

That's the brand name of acetazolamide, which I mentioned.
 
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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

I think Diamox or B vitamins are the only acceptable allies to Buteyko which also builds self control and can make you interested in meditation. Phenibut would be cheap and quick GABA but of course much less user-friendly than a benzodiazepine.
 
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Ben

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

Some people do not have enough self-control to practice Buteyko, and a lack of self-control is often caused by poor health, particularly reduced brain energy. A lot of people are in this hole, and using substances to accomplish this can dig them out. I also find that it's depriving because you have to focus on your breathing, and stressful because you have to slow your breathing. RP has elaborated upon why sensory deprivation and stress are bad.

Diamox wouldn't work, and I mentioned why in the OP. I don't know why you would find Phenibut more "user-friendly" than benzodiazepines. If you read the OP, you wouldn't think so. Besides, Phenibut builds tolerance very quickly. Does anyone know something I don't about drugs and respiration?
 
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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

In my opinion people who are healthy and making a lot of carbon dioxide would end up breathing much faster than a hypothyroid person and end up having the same content if they were not accustomed to the higher level. This is effectively the only objective of Buteyko techniques. If you take Diamox you can also integrate the minerals that you are losing.

Read with me:

Phenibut would be cheap and quick GABA but of course much less user-friendly than a benzodiazepine.

1. Phenibut
2. less
3. user-friendly
4. than
5. benzodiazepine

We induce that if I am not lying, our opinion is equal regarding the user-friendliness of Phenibut as opposed to benzodiazepines.

I was in a hole, but not always the same. I used the times I felt good, relatively to my worst times, to exercise my will. This created some energy, which strengthened my will. And so on I pedalled up to the knowledge that the healing process is the cure itself, for healing is perpetual (unless you die).
 
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Ben

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

Such_Saturation said:
In my opinion people who are healthy and making a lot of carbon dioxide would end up breathing much faster than a hypothyroid person and end up having the same content if they were not accustomed to the higher level. This is effectively the only objective of Buteyko techniques. If you take Diamox you can also integrate the minerals that you are losing.

Read with me:

Phenibut would be cheap and quick GABA but of course much less user-friendly than a benzodiazepine.

1. Phenibut
2. less
3. user-friendly
4. than
5. benzodiazepine


We induce that if I am not lying, our opinion is equal regarding the user-friendliness of Phenibut as opposed to benzodiazepines.

I was in a hole, but not always the same. I used the times I felt good, relatively to my worst times, to exercise my will. This created some energy, which strengthened my will. And so on I pedalled up to the knowledge that the healing process is the cure itself, for healing is perpetual (unless you die).
What is the point of this in bold? Anyway, what I meant to ask you is why you think benzodiazepines are more "user-friendly". The link I provided in the OP should convince you otherwise. When tolerance builds to the drugs, they no longer have any benefits on sleep or anxiety disorders. In fact, they have adverse effects on sleep quality, memory, concentration, and other cognitive functions. Their effects are harmful enough that patients that quit the drugs make less medical visits than the ones that are still on them. Also, cognitive functioning was higher in patients off the drugs than on the drugs. These facts just scream "stay away", and you're saying it's user-friendly at all.

Phenibut probably has a similar effect anyway. Tolerance builds very quickly, and withdrawal symptoms appear from just a few doses. Therefore, I don't think GABAergic drugs have long-term benefits. But then, do non-pharmaceutical GABAergic agents like progest-E, magnesium, taurine, etc also lead to tolerance and withdrawal symptoms? I don't know. And how do tianeptine or psychedelic drugs avoid serotonin "rebound" with withdrawal? I don't know that either. Is there any substances that reduce breathing that don't result in tolerance and withdrawal symptoms? That's why I made this thread.

Also, supplementing with salts on Diamox is very risky, because it leads to a higher risk of kidney stones. The drug increases their excretion, so clearly it's not a good candidate for reducing breathing.
 
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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

Because benzodiazepines are available in many delayed release mechanisms and their dosages are engineered by the companies before releasing a product. Even a certain cycle might be well studied in its effects and side effects. With Phenibut all you get is a tub of powder and, as you said, it's even easier to build a tolerance (we are talking less than one week for the more reckless users) to this agonist than to a positive modulator.
 

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

My current understanding is that our goal should be to achieve increased cellular respiration in ways that produce abundant CO2. Having good thyroid function and proper nutrition seems key in maintaining cellular respiration. When things have been substantially derailed various supplements can help shift that balance back to a cellular respiratory/metabolic pattern that produces CO2 (rather than lactic acid as one example). This is where one can utilize bag breathing to increase CO2 in the system while working on restoring metabolic production. Buteyko also helps increase the CO2 in our body by slowing the amount 'blown off' through the lungs. In this respect decreasing our physical respiration via the lungs can help balance the system while we work on increasing cellular respiration.
 

Blossom

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

In 'medicine' it is customary to be careful prescribing benzodiazepines in people with emphysema due to poor elasticity of the lung tissue that impairs the ability to blow off CO2. I'm sure in the healthy lung it wouldn't be an issue. I just think RP has given us safer options.
 

overkees

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

I think Ashwagandha also has several pathways with the GABA receptors which causes little to no dependency.

Must look it up again to see what the fuzz was all about.
 

quinnGoes

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

Have you considered making use of more than one of these substances and rotating use to another effective pathway before a tolerance can be formed? For example 3 days of GABA-A activating drugs, followed by 3 days of an alternative (benzos, barbs, z-drugs, thienobezos), followed by 3 days of an alternative, followed by 3 days of GABA-B agonists (GHB, Phenibut, Baclofen)

I can imagine many alternative substances that could be useful in this rotation. Here are a few examples:
-anti-histamines (cyproheptadine, hydroxyzine)
-anti-serotonin (tianeptine, cyproheptadine, low dose LSD, dopamine agonists, caffeine)
-glutamate modulation (l-theanine, glycine, gelatin)
-neurosteroids (pregenolone, progesterone, allopregnanolone, ganaxolone)
-z-drugs (zolpidem, zopiclone, nonbenzo hypnotic agents) (not completely cross tolerant with benzos)
-thienobenzos (a benzodiazepine in that the benzene ring has been replaced by a thiophene ring) (also not completely cross tolerant with benzos)
-GABA (possibly crosses blood brain barrier if compounded in DMSO)

There is also the use of certain antagonists to reduce, eliminate, or even reverse tolerance. The opiod receptor antagonist Naltrexone co-administered in ultra low doses alongside opiates has in many studies shown to attenuate tolerance development and potentiate opiate effects. The NMDA antagonist Memantine blocks excessive glutamatergic neurotransmission which is theorized to be an important part of tolerance development. There are many anecdotal accounts of Memantines ability to prevent tolerance development to many drugs, mostly commonly stimulants but also gabaergics. Both of these drugs also appear to confer benefits of their own and show little tolerance development even when used chronically in low doses. They could also be used on a less than daily basis, and since a dose is a mere several mg, perhaps a slight escalation of dose over a long period of time is not such a problem.

Also, take a look at the neurosteroid allopregnanolone and its derivative ganaxolone (orally available version). Allopregnanolone is formed by 5a-reductase metabolism of progesterone. There are studies showing very positive effects and GABA-A modulation without tolerance formation.

On a different path, the drug 2-4 DNP might be useful to you. It causes a massive increase in oxidative metabolism and CO2 production through mitochondrial uncoupling. While there is some tolerance development there is no negative feedback loop, so appropriate doses (which would be a relatively low one to avoid lethargy from low ATP caused by over dosing) would continue to be effective long term.
 
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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

Or, buy an inhaler with a CO2 cartridge :D
 

jyb

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

quinnGoes said:
I can imagine many alternative substances that could be useful in this rotation. Here are a few examples:
-anti-histamines (cyproheptadine, hydroxyzine)
-anti-serotonin (tianeptine, cyproheptadine, low dose LSD, dopamine agonists, caffeine)
-glutamate modulation (l-theanine, glycine, gelatin)
-neurosteroids (pregenolone, progesterone, allopregnanolone, ganaxolone)
-z-drugs (zolpidem, zopiclone, nonbenzo hypnotic agents) (not completely cross tolerant with benzos)
-thienobenzos (a benzodiazepine in that the benzene ring has been replaced by a thiophene ring) (also not completely cross tolerant with benzos)
-GABA (possibly crosses blood brain barrier if compounded in DMSO)

But do you know if its safe to use several of these drugs at the same time? Or in the same day, but it's not possible to predict how much is left in your serum from just knowing the official average half-life. In particular, I'm curious to experiment with some of anti-serotonin drugs but I tend to only take 1 pharma drug at a time to be safe.
 

quinnGoes

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

jyb said:
But do you know if its safe to use several of these drugs at the same time? Or in the same day, but it's not possible to predict how much is left in your serum from just knowing the official average half-life. In particular, I'm curious to experiment with some of anti-serotonin drugs but I tend to only take 1 pharma drug at a time to be safe.

The idea is to rotate between the drugs rather than simply use one or use them at the same time. Besides the tolerance reducing drugs, like memantine, which would be used most days.
 

quinnGoes

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Re: Drugs that reduce breathing long-term, no tolerance buil

Since naltrexone an opiod antagonist, and memantine an nmda antagonist, have shown such effectiveness in reducing tolerance; I think it would be interesting to look into the effect of ultra low dose gaba antagonism (alongside a gaba agonist) for the same purpose
 

Parsifal

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Such_Saturation said:
And so on I pedalled up to the knowledge that the healing process is the cure itself, for healing is perpetual (unless you die).
Deep and wise words :thumbleft.
 

BingDing

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Parsifal said:
post 103265
Such_Saturation said:
And so on I pedalled up to the knowledge that the healing process is the cure itself, for healing is perpetual (unless you die).
Deep and wise words :thumbleft.

+1! That's also one of the most understandable things I've ever read from Such.
 
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