Big Pharma - oral GABA doesn't work; Also Big Pharma - oral GABA works, can replace alcohol

[cjm]

thats a common reaction [breathlessness] but it dissipates

Have you heard any theories at all on what's happening when it happens? I looked and came up empty-handed.

 

[frannybananny]

Progesterone certainly reproduces the drunk feeling from alcohol, while I think pregnenolone somewhat antagonizes it. Ray did mention a friend of his who had alcohol "addiction" and managed to substitute alcohol with 100mg pregnenolone and told Ray the effects were what he hoped to get from alcohol but only rarely did. As an extra benefit, pregnenolone, progesterone, allopregnanolone, and other steroids that block CRH/CRF also likely block the "addiction" to not just alcohol but many other drugs of (ab)use as well, since the vast majority of "addiction" is simply self-medication for controlling stress.

Chronic pregnenolone effects in normal humans: attenuation of benzodiazepine-induced sedation - PubMed

Pregnenolone is the major steroid precursor in humans. It is also a "neurosteroid" and possesses intrinsic behavioral and brain effects in animals, affecting the GABA(A) and other receptors. In two preliminary studies, we sought to characterize its tolerability and psychotropic effects in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pregnenolone and ganaxolone reduce operant ethanol self-administration in alcohol-preferring p rats - PubMed

These results indicate that pregnenolone dose-dependently reduces operant ethanol self-administration in P rats without locomotor impairment, suggesting that it may have potential as a novel therapeutic for reducing chronic alcohol drinking in individuals that abuse alcohol.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

CRF1 Antagonist GSK561679 in Alcoholism - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

CRF1 Antagonist GSK561679 in Alcoholism - Full Text View.

classic.clinicaltrials.gov

Pregnenolone Is The Most Potent Inhibitor Of The Stress Signal (CRH)

I think this study should finally put to rest the arguments and debates of whether pregnenolone raises or lowers cortisol, and how it affects the stress response overall. I posted a similar study, which showed that the pregnenolone metabolites progesterone and allopregannolone potently inhibited...

raypeatforum.com

Rat Park - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This statement is confusing and seems to directly contradict itself! "Progesterone certainly reproduces the drunk feeling from alcohol, while I think pregnenolone somewhat antagonizes it. Ray did mention a friend of his who had alcohol "addiction" and managed to substitute alcohol with 100mg pregnenolone and told Ray the effects were what he hoped to get from alcohol but only rarely did. "

Sorry, just trying to understand what you mean.

 

[Frankdee20]

Have you heard any theories at all on what's happening when it happens? I looked and came up empty-handed.

None, and even if they were available, probably not very empirically based, unless we knew the specific mechanism of action for oral GABA.

Possible that it affects the parasympathetic nervous system. That effect you mention tends to occur with higher doses, and it’s accompanied by tingling skin sensations and a little face flushing.

I think oral GABA does elicit a subjectively measurable relaxation response for most.

Also, I don’t think alcohol can be compared to benzodiazepines because alcohol affects Dopamine, NMDA, and Endorphin (which mediates the reinforcement of continuous intake, and that’s why Naltrexone stops cravings) but benzodiazepines are straight GABA agonists and nothing else.

But to add to my point, in my personal opinion and perhaps I’ve already digressed, alcohol abuse is highly detrimental to the organism…

But in my opinion, I’ve danced with every available devil at various times in my life, alcohol doesn’t make someone de compensate with the speed of methamphetamine or cocaine, in my opinion… then there’s opiates, had my share too…. That’s a different animal.. not as psychologically addictive as the classic stimulants …. But so damn physically addictive… I learned to dance with alcohol, I know the steps ….. one day I will be free, but this is a slow and steady process… I have access to benzos but I will never trust pharmas solution for a spiritual problem

 

[Nokoni]

Why did you take the quote out of context? That part on the "moral hazard" was preceded by "...and the official excuse was...". So, you made it sound like I claim Big Pharma was concerned about the "moral hazard" when I actually implied it was the exact opposite.

I quoted what was funny. It was not an attack on you. For whatever harm I have caused, I apologize.

 

[Regina]

We are now living in an openly clown world, so I don't really expect many doctors to change their position based on contrarian evidence, but it is a stunning admission on behalf of medicine regardless. Namely, mainstream medicine and its partners in crime (often, literally) Big Pharma have spend a ton of money financing, ghostwriting, and publishing bogus studies claiming oral GABA does not have central (brain) effects. You see, if oral GABA worked centrally, the entire benzodiazepine industry for treating all kinds of anxiety disorders (and even seizures) will disappear overnight. Those GABA receptors that endogenous GABA activates (duh!) just happen to also be the main target of the benzodiazepine drugs - i.e. all such drugs are GABA agonists. So, it was absolutely crucial for Big Pharma to convince the public (and especially psychiatrists) that orally ingested GABA does not cross the blood-brain barrier and is thus ineffective in activating the GABA receptors in the brain. When some brave maverick doctors tried to make a case for using oral GABA as a treatment for anxiety (and even depression) back in the 1960s, Big Pharma turned on its propaganda machine, smeared those scientists/doctors, and convinced the public and medicine that oral GABA is cannot reach the brain and is thus ineffective for anxiety/depression. That propaganda is still ongoing despite hundreds of studies demonstrating oral GABA crossing the blood-brain barrier and exerting central effects.
Now, despite decades of unfounded claims that oral GABA is centrally ineffective, Big Pharma is pushing oral GABA as an alcohol substitute. Why? Well, it just so happens that most of alcohol's effects perceived as positive by people are due to ethanol's ability to also activate GABA receptors, both in the brain and elsewhere - i.e. alcohol is a powerful GABA agonist. So, on a slight tangent, if one follows this train of thought without any bias, one could conclude at least three things. One, people with anxiety would probably have a higher rate of alcohol consumption than the general population, and even an "addiction" to it in cases of severe anxiety. Two, there is probably no such thing as "alcoholism" or "addiction" as defined by the (in)famous (and completely bogus) DSM V, but rather a simple case of self-medication by people under stress by using a powerful GABA agonist (and thus anxiolytic) substances that is cheap and widely available (namely, alcohol). Three, people with anxiety are probably under chronic stress as the latter blocks the GABA system and activates the anxiogenic HPA-axis. It just so happens that all these conclusions have been proven beyond reasonable doubt. As a side note to alcohol's effects - the latter is also an NMDA antagonist and that mechanism also contributes to alcohol's positive effects such as disinhibition and rapidly acting anti-depressant (though, becoming depressant with long-term use). Thus, GABA agonism probably won't replicate all of alcohol's positive effects but could still be a close substitute. This link between GABA and alcohol was well-known as far back as the early 1970s and Big Pharma even synthesized a molecule called "DS1" (of course, a GABA agonist) reputed to replicate alcohol's positive effects almost completely, with none of the downsides. That molecule never reached the market and the official excuse was that Big Pharma was concerned about the "moral hazard" of selling such a molecule. However, a more conspiratorial (read: realist) person would probably suspect that heavy lobbying from the trillion-dollar alcohol beverage industry probably played a much bigger role in the decision not to sell DS1. In conclusion to this long diatribe, the article below discusses that there is at least one pharma company out there (GABA Labs) that is now openly claiming that oral GABA is certainly centrally active, and is thus developing an oral GABA product as an alcohol substitute that should have most/all of alcohol's positive effects but none of detrimental effects, which include not only the dreaded hangover but also serious chronic conditions such as liver disease, CVD, and even cancer. The article mentions two other companies also working on oral GABA-based drugs, and there are probably many others we don't yet know about. My only hope is that all this good publicity in regards to the benefits of oral GABA does not result in GABA being declared by the FDA a "novel drug", and thus banned from over-the-counter sales.
For those curious enough to do some self-experimentation, aside from GABA itself other amino acids with similar pro-GABA effects such as taurine, beta-alanine, theanine, and even glycine should have similar alcohol-replicating effects. What's the dose you ask? Well, based on the information below provided by a company using the GABA Labs technology, it looks like each shot of their alcohol-mimetic has 1g of GABA. Assuming similar effectiveness of GABA agonism across the various amino acids, I'd try 1g taurine or beta-alanine per shot. Theaning seems to be more potent and probably would work best in doses of no ore than 200mg per drink/shot. In addition, GABA agonist steroids such as progesterone and allopregnanolone should also have such effects, and in fact high-dose progesterone is well-known to produce a "drunk" effect described by the afflicted as very similar to alcohol's.

SENTIA Red 50cl & Black 50cl

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sentiaspirits.com

Meet One Startup Trying To End Hangovers With Synthetic Alcohol | ZeroHedge

"...David Orren, managing director of GABA Labs, told WSJ: “Alcohol is like playing the piano with boxing gloves on. You hit too many keys.” Dr. David Nutt, the chief scientific officer of GABA Labs, is a former psychiatrist and neuropsychopharmacologist. He has spent two years as chief of section of clinical science in the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism at the National Institutes of Health, the Journal notes, and has long argued about the negative effect of alcohol on society. “It feels like what a glass of wine feels like. It feels relaxing. It makes you a bit more chatty, a bit more socially engaged with people,” he said about the company's product, called Alcarelle. GABA is looking to raise $10.3 million and finish food safety testing in the U.S. by the middle of 2026, the report says. Orren and Nutt have been testing the product themselves, with Orren commenting: “It feels like a warm glow. You’re being you. And you’re being with somebody that’s being them. You’re being real.” The next step will be testing the product, including testing it when mixed with actual alcohol. Dr. Mack Mitchell, senior medical advisor for Amygdala, a company working to inhibit alcohol cravings with an oral drug that targets similar receptors, commented: “People who can’t control drinking don’t always want to stop drinking completely. They just want to be able to drink normally.” Another company, Indivior, is working on a nasal spray to inhibit alcohol cravings as well. Its CEO Mark Crossley added: "I arrive in the parking lot. I don’t want six or seven drinks. I’ll top up with a nasal spray.”"

The Sentia Black sounds tasty.

 

[haidut]

This statement is confusing and seems to directly contradict itself! "Progesterone certainly reproduces the drunk feeling from alcohol, while I think pregnenolone somewhat antagonizes it. Ray did mention a friend of his who had alcohol "addiction" and managed to substitute alcohol with 100mg pregnenolone and told Ray the effects were what he hoped to get from alcohol but only rarely did. "

Sorry, just trying to understand what you mean.

Which part was contradicting? What I was trying to say is that progesterone can (re)produce the drunk feeling that alcohol produces, while pregnenolone antagonizes that feeling, and one of the studies I listed shows that pregnenolone attenuates the sedation induced by benzodiazepines (GABA agonists, same as alcohol). As far as that person Ray mentioned who was an alcoholic - I don't know what he was trying to get from alcohol. Maybe attenuation of anxiety, which pregnenolone can certainly provide, without making one feel drink the same way progesterone does.

 

[haidut]

I quoted what was funny. It was not an attack on you. For whatever harm I have caused, I apologize.

No worries, I thought it was joke too. Just making sure I did not say something stupid/wrong in the original post

 

[haidut]

The Sentia Black sounds tasty.

Sames. Maybe I'll try some taurine+theanine mixed with ginger ale and cranberry juice. Should make a nice drink and mask the bitterness of those aminos. I'll report back here on how well it worked.

 

[Regina]

Sames. Maybe I'll try some taurine+theanine mixed with ginger ale and cranberry juice. Should make a nice drink and mask the bitterness of those aminos. I'll report back here on how well it worked.

 

[haidut]

The anti-anxiety meds are (worse than) useless middlemen just like so much else in Western society. I only have secondhand experience with Xanax, and it's a cruel joke of a drug to hijack the GABA system and cause dependency in a matter of days even at sub-mg doses.

If you disliked Xanax, I can't even begin to tell you how bad Klonopin is. Virtually impossible to wean off of. Just search Youtube for "klonopin withdrawal" and you will see what I mean. Even doctors call it a "dirty drug", in the sense that everybody knows it is addictive but nobody dares speak up. Oh, and if that was not enough, benzos are also neurotoxic, with the damage persisting even after stopping them. Kind of like...finasteride and its (in)famous PFS.

Anti-anxiety drugs cause brain damage, unemployment, and suicide...even if stopped

Just a few minutes ago I posted about a study implicating serotonin (5-HT) and, by extension, SSRI drugs in brain atrophy and depression, especially in aging people. In clinical practice, while SSRI drugs are considered plenty "safe", anti-anxiety drugs such as the popular benzodiazepines (e.g...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Nfinkelstein]

Sames. Maybe I'll try some taurine+theanine mixed with ginger ale and cranberry juice. Should make a nice drink and mask the bitterness of those aminos. I'll report back here on how well it worked.

Please do - would be interesting!

 

[ddjd]

"...David Orren, managing director of GABA Labs, told WSJ: “Alcohol is like playing the piano with boxing gloves on. You hit too many keys.” Dr. David Nutt, the chief scientific officer of GABA Labs, is a former psychiatrist and neuropsychopharmacologist. He has spent two years as chief of section of clinical science in the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism at the National Institutes of Health, the Journal notes, and has long argued about the negative effect of alcohol on society. “It feels like what a glass of wine feels like. It feels relaxing. It makes you a bit more chatty, a bit more socially engaged with people,” he said about the company's product, called Alcarelle. GABA is looking to raise $10.3 million and finish food safety testing in the U.S. by the middle of 2026, the report says. Orren and Nutt have been testing the product themselves, with Orren commenting: “It feels like a warm glow. You’re being you. And you’re being with somebody that’s being them. You’re being real.” The next step will be testing the product, including testing it when mixed with actual alcohol. Dr. Mack Mitchell, senior medical advisor for Amygdala, a company working to inhibit alcohol cravings with an oral drug that targets similar receptors, commented: “People who can’t control drinking don’t always want to stop drinking completely. They just want to be able to drink normally.” Another company, Indivior, is working on a nasal spray to inhibit alcohol cravings as well. Its CEO Mark Crossley added: "I arrive in the parking lot. I don’t want six or seven drinks. I’ll top up with a nasal spray.”"

other uk people will remember Professor David Nutt was famously asked to resign after his claims ecstasy and LSD are less dangerous than alcohol. of course he was right.

 

[ThinPicking]

other uk people will remember Professor David Nutt was famously asked to resign after his claims ecstasy and LSD are less dangerous than alcohol. of course he was right.

In context I actually agreed with the mainstream at the time and still do. Nutt's comments about MDMA in particular were irresponsible, although the heat he received at the time could have been a lot more constructive. I was still using it occasionally back then, the last occasion was 2013 and I'll probably never touch it again. I never had a bad experience, they were amazing times. But it's too profound, too hedonistic, it's unreal, and we're often chasing a state that can be found at a lower level in the back of our minds at all times when we're in order. If "young" people are to be free of any remaining stigma about its acquisition and use, they should at first be told the Truth.

He went on to try and bring a sedative-hypnotic to market with an "antidote" to switch it off. Assuming he was genuinely looking for a way to reduce "harm" around narcotic abuse, I think he was doing so from a tunnel.

 

[Nokoni]

No worries, I thought it was joke too. Just making sure I did not say something stupid/wrong in the original post

Not at all. It was just a fantastic line. Had to clean the coffee off my monitor. Albert Bourla worrying about moral hazard, that's about as funny as it gets.

 

[cjm]

benzos are also neurotoxic, with the damage persisting even after stopping them. Kind of like...finasteride and its (in)famous PFS.

My friend microdosed finasteride to reverse thinning and hairline fade without any side effects.

Benzos are the freakin' worst.

Quick note on another personal experience with GABA:

I'm a weirdo and put GABA powder in a bath two nights ago. I was getting extra chirpy at "slow" drivers on my commute home and was still chirping when my family greeted me. I just needed the edge off. GABA must absorb transdermally in water because I'm still feeling a little glow that started intensely after the bath. I slept 4 hours last night and drove to Rockville from Westminster (about an hour at highway speeds) at 5 am and apprenticed at a site I'd never seen before, in my 5th week as essentially a construction worker after 12 years at a sales desk, tucked up in an elementary school's (tiny) ceiling, delicately running electrical wire (I jumped off a ladder to fish one), while navigating a sea of angry, impatient men from different tribes/trades wield tools, all while my brand new foreman (for a day) was having an all-day tantrum about mismanagement at the site. He eventually collapsed from frustration. I sat in stand-still traffic for 20 minutes on the highway on the way home. I'm still excited to work tomorrow, the stress of today is sliding off, it had no quarter inside me.

 

[Sherbert]

Sames. Maybe I'll try some taurine+theanine mixed with ginger ale and cranberry juice. Should make a nice drink and mask the bitterness of those aminos. I'll report back here on how well it worked.

wondering if it would work with glycine instead of taurine, anyone know?

 

[questforhealth]

Could GABA be tried with magnesium glycinate as an alcohol alternative for theoretically trying to wean someone off? Would the mag glycinate be a good NMDA antagonist to go along with the GABA powder?