Benzodiazepines May Be Strong Serotonin Antagonists. Are They Really That Dangerous?

[Andman]

So - how can we safely simulate the effects of benzos, without the heavy sedation?

(I'm with @2ManyHistamines - they were and are still a life-saver for me, and I've never had any addiction issues because I only use them in "emergencies")

tried progesterone?

 

[ATP]

I have used both SSRIs and benzodiazepines; the side effects from SSRIs are horrendous. There were no apparent side effects from benzodiazepines and they were very helpful whilst I was taking them.

 

[Frankdee20]

Benzodiazepines in high doses are completely spellbinding ! Add alcohol to that mix and people change so severely. They truly do not know what they’re doing ... very dangerous drugs

 

[Frankdee20]

Glutamate rebound is one side effect of alcohol and benzodiazepines

 

[SonOfEurope]

Once you become dependent on them... They are practically impossible to come off of unless you withdraw extremely slowly, as In a 5% reduction per month.

I used to be on 2.5mg clonazepam and have so far been able to drop it to just 0.75 mg a day but it took me TWO YEARS of basically scratching the pill on a measured space of wall.

Day 1= one scratch
Day 2= two scratches
Day 100= one hundred scratches

That together with large dose Progesterone (60mg every 3 days) is the only way I've achieved it... No surprise as P4 is the substance of brain adaptation.

I should be 100% out by spring of next year and I swear on my soul I'll never touch these things again.

PLEASE STAY AWAY FROM BENZODIAZEPINES!! if you want to feel to feel Gaba take Progest-E or androsterone.... Or drink a beer and for lowering serotonin try MB or occasionally Mirtazapine.

Do not ruin your life with these abominations.

 

[FredSonoma]

Man I'm extremely biased because of bad experiences with ppl in my life so take what I say with a grain of salt, but Benzos are one of the worst things ever imo. I made a whole thread about it one day if you look in my thread history lol. Truly one of my biggest fears is interacting with someone on benzos

Edit: This is the thread if you are curious: Constant And Extreme Sociopathic Behavior By Users Of Benzos

 

[GutFeeling]

Once you become dependent on them... They are practically impossible to come off of unless you withdraw extremely slowly, as In a 5% reduction per month.

I used to be on 2.5mg clonazepam and have so far been able to drop it to just 0.75 mg a day but it took me TWO YEARS of basically scratching the pill on a measured space of wall.

Day 1= one scratch
Day 2= two scratches
Day 100= one hundred scratches

That together with large dose Progesterone (60mg every 3 days) is the only way I've achieved it... No surprise as P4 is the substance of brain adaptation.

I should be 100% out by spring of next year and I swear on my soul I'll never touch these things again.

PLEASE STAY AWAY FROM BENZODIAZEPINES!! if you want to feel to feel Gaba take Progest-E or androsterone.... Or drink a beer and for lowering serotonin try MB or occasionally Mirtazapine.

Do not ruin your life with these abominations.

Thank you.

I've been taking mirtazapine for a few months, the ocassionally is incorrect at the moment, the withdrawal is insane, idk if using for short periods would have this problem but taking caution is reasonable.

I would like some products like androsterone but my country is in crisis, the dollar value is insanely high so I will stay away from importations for now, also there is a chance that the customs would reject the products.

I have access to progesterone but the possible anti androgenic effects scare my soul.

I'm only using Clonazepam sparingly but it's highly possible that I will use it daily, generalized anxiety is hell...

Ofc I'm trying to find another way, but my clonazepam have just 0.1mg per drop, if things get bad to the point of me using it for long periods then I will try tapering 0.1mg per week.

Did you get bad sides during the slow tapering?

Mirtazapine seems to be protective against benzo withdrawal and addictions to drugs in general
Employing Mirtazapine to Aid Benzodiazepine Withdrawal - PubMed

Effect of mirtazapine versus selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors on benzodiazepine use in patients with major depressive disorder: a pragmatic, multicenter, open-label, randomized, active-controlled, 24-week trial

The percentage of benzodiazepine users was significantly lower in the mirtazapine than in the SSRIs group at weeks 6, 12, and 24 (21.4 vs. 81.8 %; 11.1 vs. 85.7 %, both P < 0.001; and 12.5 vs. 81.8 %


Apparently withdrawals, alcohol for example, involve excess serotonin and adrenaline. I think that cyproheptadine, along with clonidine/propranolol would make it easier.

 

[GutFeeling]

Man I'm extremely biased because of bad experiences with ppl in my life so take what I say with a grain of salt, but Benzos are one of the worst things ever imo. I made a whole thread about it one day if you look in my thread history lol. Truly one of my biggest fears is interacting with someone on benzos

Edit: This is the thread if you are curious: Constant And Extreme Sociopathic Behavior By Users Of Benzos

When I take clonazepam I can watch the worst gore without any bad feeling, even the ones that would make me grind my teeth and sometimes even find them funny...

They definitely can impair empathy. There are several reports of normal people going crazy, argumenting, fighting, etc just after taking huge doses.

I know 2 people who take benzos and act like sociopaths in certain moments.

Antisocial personality disorder goes hand in hand with anxiety, the lack of anxiety and behavioral dishinibition would be catastrophic in these people. Benzos are similar to alcohol, I suspect that what you saw may be the personality of that person on alcohol without being exactly drunk.

I definitely become far more assertive and caring less for others but still far from a psychopath.

 

[thomas00]

Why not go the metabolic route, try thyroid etc?

 

[GutFeeling]

Why not go the metabolic route, try thyroid etc?

I've tried thyroid before, felt better in general, the anti anxiety effect was there but very mild. Thanks for the suggestion, I may try again but suspect that thyroid did bad to my teeth. However my tsh, t4 and t3 are good at the moment so I'm not sure if lack of thyroid is the problem.

Will try magnesium and amantadine. I'm using cypro and it's been effective but not completely.

 

[GutFeeling]

Thanks to everyone that commented, appreciated all!
Indeed, the low cost and effectiveness make they really attractive despite having severe sides, but the sides aren't always so absurd.
But again: Only use them at last resort, very huge chance that others peaty approved things like pregnenolone, zinc, magnesium etc would work.

For thoses who want to get out of them this study may help. Basically slow tapering, in the article they reduced about 0.25 mg per week,I would use even less. Everyone had used it for 3 years and when slowing tapering nobody got serious adverse effects, mostly mild ones.
Cypro and clonidine certainly would help, peat mentioned sugar and energy promoting substances for SSRIs tapering, guess the same is valid for benzos.

 

[thomas00]

I've tried thyroid before, felt better in general, the anti anxiety effect was there but very mild. Thanks for the suggestion, I may try again but suspect that thyroid did bad to my teeth. However my tsh, t4 and t3 are good at the moment so I'm not sure if lack of thyroid is the problem.

Will try magnesium and amantadine. I'm using cypro and it's been effective but not completely.

There was a guy on the lisuride thread who said a single drop once per week abolished his anxiety

 

[PATB]

Of the benzos, the only one I have much experience with (using and being around others using it) is alprazolam. I have come across alprazolam (xanax) many times, often in powder form; yes, imagine having a bag full of 500 of those 2mg xanax bars worth of the drug. If the wrong crowd hears that you have such a thing, expect it to be stolen.

I have seen many people get arrested after taking this stuff. I have also known many daily xanax users and they are some of the worst people and will shamelessly steal from you. I have personally witnessed moral, honest people that I know wouldn't ever even think of doing such a thing if sober, walking down the street checking if each car to see if it is locked in the hopes to steal something.

That being said, having it on hand and being able to take it for free, I tried using it for a few days straight (maybe 4-5 days) right before bed. (I am a night owl who has to wake up early for work). I didn't think much of it. Despite taking it daily (just one dose before bed for sleep) in less than a week I felt completely terrible and the only thing that helped was to take a little bit more. At least in regards to alprazolam, it's a bad idea to take it daily. Period.

But it is a great drug to have on hand if you're able to control yourself: maybe just take some on a Friday night before going out, or a little bit before giving a speech in front of a crowd, or take a bit if you're having a panic attack (I have never had a panic attack that wasn't drug-induced, so I can't say that I have experience in this situation).

Personally, I don't have social anxiety, I am an extreme introvert. Benzos, alcohol, marijuana, whatever: none of them produce any desire to engage in social interaction - although it makes it seem like less of a chore. I mention this because a lot of people take xanax or drink alcohol before social events because it helps them be more sociable; I do not get this feeling.

I also noticed the sedative effects do not work for me unless I take it and lie down and try to sleep immediately. If I miss that opportunity, there is a stimulating effect and I cannot sleep for a long time ... but once I eventually fell asleep, it could be for 14+ hours straight!

I think alprazolam is a great thing to have on hand for occasional use only. The problems arise when you take it on a daily basis, even [at least in my case] if you take it every day for just one week, your body quickly will tell you "I feel like absolute crap" and the only way to fix it is to take a bit more.

No other drug has had this effect on me, except maybe phenibut which was more extreme: I took it one night and had terrible withdrawals the next day.

Also, in terms of recreational drug usage - say psychedelics - it is useful to have a benzo such as alprazolam on hand in case you start having a bad trip. It will stop that right away better than anything else I am aware of. There is also the case of compulsive re-dosing. If you do recreational drugs, it can give you that feeling of "I never feel too high". I don't use marijuana anymore (my roommate used to sell it so I had an unlimited supply for free, it actually does give me some anxiety) but when I did, if I took alprazolam before, I would be able to consume any amount that was there. That feeling of "Woah, I'm really f*cked up right now" completely disappeared and was replaced with "I don't even feel much of anything, might as well take more".

Xanax (if you don't leave your domicile and go around getting in trouble) is a great way to waste time, that's for sure.

 

[GutFeeling]

Thank you Thomas. I don't have access to lisuride, but I will try metergoline after one or a few months.

Of the benzos, the only one I have much experience with (using and being around others using it) is alprazolam. I have come across alprazolam (xanax) many times, often in powder form; yes, imagine having a bag full of 500 of those 2mg xanax bars worth of the drug. If the wrong crowd hears that you have such a thing, expect it to be stolen.

I have seen many people get arrested after taking this stuff. I have also known many daily xanax users and they are some of the worst people and will shamelessly steal from you. I have personally witnessed moral, honest people that I know wouldn't ever even think of doing such a thing if sober, walking down the street checking if each car to see if it is locked in the hopes to steal something.

That being said, having it on hand and being able to take it for free, I tried using it for a few days straight (maybe 4-5 days) right before bed. (I am a night owl who has to wake up early for work). I didn't think much of it. Despite taking it daily (just one dose before bed for sleep) in less than a week I felt completely terrible and the only thing that helped was to take a little bit more. At least in regards to alprazolam, it's a bad idea to take it daily. Period.

But it is a great drug to have on hand if you're able to control yourself: maybe just take some on a Friday night before going out, or a little bit before giving a speech in front of a crowd, or take a bit if you're having a panic attack (I have never had a panic attack that wasn't drug-induced, so I can't say that I have experience in this situation).

Personally, I don't have social anxiety, I am an extreme introvert. Benzos, alcohol, marijuana, whatever: none of them produce any desire to engage in social interaction - although it makes it seem like less of a chore. I mention this because a lot of people take xanax or drink alcohol before social events because it helps them be more sociable; I do not get this feeling.

I also noticed the sedative effects do not work for me unless I take it and lie down and try to sleep immediately. If I miss that opportunity, there is a stimulating effect and I cannot sleep for a long time ... but once I eventually fell asleep, it could be for 14+ hours straight!

I think alprazolam is a great thing to have on hand for occasional use only. The problems arise when you take it on a daily basis, even [at least in my case] if you take it every day for just one week, your body quickly will tell you "I feel like absolute crap" and the only way to fix it is to take a bit more.

No other drug has had this effect on me, except maybe phenibut which was more extreme: I took it one night and had terrible withdrawals the next day.

Also, in terms of recreational drug usage - say psychedelics - it is useful to have a benzo such as alprazolam on hand in case you start having a bad trip. It will stop that right away better than anything else I am aware of. There is also the case of compulsive re-dosing. If you do recreational drugs, it can give you that feeling of "I never feel too high". I don't use marijuana anymore (my roommate used to sell it so I had an unlimited supply for free, it actually does give me some anxiety) but when I did, if I took alprazolam before, I would be able to consume any amount that was there. That feeling of "Woah, I'm really f*cked up right now" completely disappeared and was replaced with "I don't even feel much of anything, might as well take more".

Xanax (if you don't leave your domicile and go around getting in trouble) is a great way to waste time, that's for sure.

Never thought that Xanax was this controled, do you live in the USA?
Here (Brazil) most drugstores sell benzos without trouble. I once bought Clonazepam when I was 13 years old for treating my dog distemper, the only commentary of the dispenser was: we have alprazolam, and diazepam too. lol.

I guess the reason why you didn't felt much was because you don't have severe anxiety or depression. Even when I am alone, when I take Clonazepam I feel like the devil (who is doing a hell of party) get out of my head. Cypro give similar effects but not always sufficient.

Most of the time Clonazepam makes me less aggressive and more outgoing, but it increases my assertiveness alot. I guess these people who become crazy on them have an antisocial disorder or just get the same behavior they would get with alcohol

 

[PATB]

Never thought that Xanax was this controled, do you live in the USA?

Yes, I live in the US. It is a prescription-only Schedule IV Controlled Substances, and there's a whole lot of people addicted to it. Most of what is going around is pressed pills made with Alprazolam (or even etizolam, or some other benzo analogue) powder mixed with whatever binding agent. The strength varies considerably. Some have absolutely no Alprazolam in them.

Here (Brazil) most drugstores sell benzos without trouble. I once bought Clonazepam when I was 13 years old for treating my dog distemper, the only commentary of the dispenser was: we have alprazolam, and diazepam too. lol.

Yes, it's a horrible situation. Overpriced meds, you must pay a doctor just for the opportunity to try and get them, and a lot of things are completely banned when they shouldn't be.
It's legal to prescribe hormone blockers and estrogen to try and a male child into a transgendered woman, but your testosterone levels have to be ridiculously low to get any prescription for them. Cyproheptadine is a prescription-only drug, you can't even get the pills made for pets without paying a veterinarian for a prescription, and good luck with that. Luckily it's not a controlled substance so you can buy it in "not for human consumption" form, although the vendor can just put whatever they want in it really.

I guess the reason why you didn't felt much was because you don't have severe anxiety or depression. Even when I am alone, when I take Clonazepam I feel like the devil (who is doing a hell of party) get out of my head. Cypro give similar effects but not always sufficient.

I have just gotten cypro from idealabs a week ago, I haven't been able to really test it out though.

Most of the time Clonazepam makes me less aggressive and more outgoing, but it increases my assertiveness alot. I guess these people who become crazy on them have an antisocial disorder or just get the same behavior they would get with alcohol

Alcohol makes me want to argue on the internet. Alprazolam/xanax makes me either want to smoke a lot of weed (which I have no access to) or some synthetic cannabinoid (which I also don't have). Also, it makes me want to buy a lot of things. It can even make me want to steal (something I never do sober, drunk, or on anything else) but I control myself. I rarely leave the house if I take any.

Additionally, Alprazolam/xanax has compelled me to try and pay for prostitutes [which are illegal in the USA, but not really]. Fortunately my location has very few so I usually just masturbate to avoid wasting the money (and risk of STDs of course).

At least when I go to the store and buy hundreds of dollars of food, I can make use of it later. Currently, I have stored up enough food that I could probably not buy any for 8-12 months and not run out.

 

[GutFeeling]

Yes, I live in the US. It is a prescription-only Schedule IV Controlled Substances, and there's a whole lot of people addicted to it. Most of what is going around is pressed pills made with Alprazolam (or even etizolam, or some other benzo analogue) powder mixed with whatever binding agent. The strength varies considerably. Some have absolutely no Alprazolam in them.


Yes, it's a horrible situation. Overpriced meds, you must pay a doctor just for the opportunity to try and get them, and a lot of things are completely banned when they shouldn't be.
It's legal to prescribe hormone blockers and estrogen to try and a male child into a transgendered woman, but your testosterone levels have to be ridiculously low to get any prescription for them. Cyproheptadine is a prescription-only drug, you can't even get the pills made for pets without paying a veterinarian for a prescription, and good luck with that. Luckily it's not a controlled substance so you can buy it in "not for human consumption" form, although the vendor can just put whatever they want in it really.

I have just gotten cypro from idealabs a week ago, I haven't been able to really test it out though.


Alcohol makes me want to argue on the internet. Alprazolam/xanax makes me either want to smoke a lot of weed (which I have no access to) or some synthetic cannabinoid (which I also don't have). Also, it makes me want to buy a lot of things. It can even make me want to steal (something I never do sober, drunk, or on anything else) but I control myself. I rarely leave the house if I take any.

Additionally, Alprazolam/xanax has compelled me to try and pay for prostitutes [which are illegal in the USA, but not really]. Fortunately my location has very few so I usually just masturbate to avoid wasting the money (and risk of STDs of course).

At least when I go to the store and buy hundreds of dollars of food, I can make use of it later. Currently, I have stored up enough food that I could probably not buy any for 8-12 months and not run out.

Damm, didn't know the USA had so rigid (and stupid) drug rules. Seems too bad, but here there are some crazy things too, like pregnenolone being banned without reason.
Btw are you sure you was taking Xanax? I did know that benzos could cause bad behaviors, but this seems like another thing, after all they can help excessive aggressiveness...
I remember becoming more aggressive sometimes ( the same almost doesn't happen with alcohol), gonna try a higher dose just just to see what happens, I don't feel the need to take it daily, the addictive effects are not there or just very subtle.

"I am an extreme introvert. Benzos, alcohol, marijuana, whatever: none of them produce any desire to engage in social interaction - although it makes it seem like less of a chore." Can relate alot. Maybe I misinterpreted, but are you saying that you don't wanna leave your house for months? I'm almost like that though...

 

[PATB]

Damm, didn't know the USA had so rigid (and stupid) drug rules. Seems too bad, but here there are some crazy things too, like pregnenolone being banned without reason.

WEll that is the case

Btw are you sure you was taking Xanax?

I have had etizolam, prescription xanax (not mine), and mulitple other times I have tried it from different people.

I did know that benzos could cause bad behaviors, but this seems like another thing, after all they can help excessive aggressiveness...
I remember becoming more aggressive sometimes ( the same almost doesn't happen with alcohol), gonna try a higher dose just just to see what happens, I don't feel the need to take it daily, the addictive effects are not there or just very subtle.

"I am an extreme introvert. Benzos, alcohol, marijuana, whatever: none of them produce any desire to engage in social interaction - although it makes it seem like less of a chore." Can relate alot. Maybe I misinterpreted, but are you saying that you don't wanna leave your house for months? I'm almost like that though...

I would leave to go out and get some sunlight and all that, but there's not much to do out there. When I have free time, I'm usually inside my place on my PC, reading and whatnot.

I was saying I have so much food stocked up in my house, I could stay inside for months or even a year and survive off of that alone.

 

[rei]

Man I'm extremely biased because of bad experiences with ppl in my life so take what I say with a grain of salt, but Benzos are one of the worst things ever imo. I made a whole thread about it one day if you look in my thread history lol. Truly one of my biggest fears is interacting with someone on benzos

Edit: This is the thread if you are curious: Constant And Extreme Sociopathic Behavior By Users Of Benzos

sadly i can verify that from personal experience. I was prescribed 3mg alprazolam daily and it certainly eliminated all issues i perceived at the time. But i have been told i no longer cared about my sadness, i acted like sadness did not exist. After some weeks as tolerance (and comments about my behavior) started to manifest i decided to stop quickly, which led to prolonged vomiting before and after a seizure i had one morning as i was waking up. For days i was occasionally vomiting greenish foam, which i have learned to most probably be caused by emergency superoxide production to neutralize out of control stomach acid production.

Nowadays i use those same pills when I deem beneficial. After years i still have tens of tablets left from those same prescriptions. 0.1mg when used occasionally works much more strongly than 1mg on doctor's orders. I can definitely feel 0.05mg nowadays, and i have no doubt 0.01mg could have a subtle effect like a herb tea or something.

Somehow the picture being painted here is the same as with SSRI. We have evidence 1mg dose causes neurosteroid production, and only "overdosing" causes serotonin uptake inhibition. SSRI drugs might bee "nootropic" if dosed in 1mg prozac equivalent. But our doctors do 15-60mg daily, sometimes more.

 

[Kratos]

Benzo’s are evil, should only be used for max of a week in cases of severe grieving when you can’t sleep or can’t function. They mess with adenosine levels and you will get insomnia, stay far away.

 

[GreenEyedBlonde]

I have to say from personal experience that for me they are far less dangerous than SSRIs. I took clonazepam at a very low dose for 20 years as I couldn't sleep without it. It is definitely hard to quit, but so are ALL psychotripic drugs after you have been on them for a long time. I never had a bad reaction to benzos. But I have transitioned to diazepam as I can take it at a far lower (effective) dose and still get some calming effects.

What dose of Valium? After almost 18 years of using Valium 5mg 2-3x/week for insomnia I have finally quit the drug. Since January 2020 I have used it 3 times when I became desperate to sleep. I’m now using cypro 0.5 mg twice a week to sleep. I do have to admit I felt much better on Valium. In the past few months I have gained 10 lbs and just don’t feel all that great. After struggling to get off the Valium I am seriously thinking of using it for my unrelenting insomnia and to feel ‘normal’ again.