Buteyko Breathing - Bud Weiss, 2008-09-15

[Ahanu]

post 119463 If higher CO2 level and higher CP makes for more efficient delivery of oxygen, as Buteyko and the Bohr Effect theory says, then why wouldn't it be possible to have greater oxygen delivery with higher CP and higher BMR and lower heart-rate?

Yes that's my question too.

There are a lot oft things that seems to influence heart rate:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_volume
Reduced heart rate prolongs ventricular diastole (filling), increasing end-diastolic volume, and ultimately allowing more blood to be ejected.

My knowledge in human physiology is just to poor and the more i read the more difficult it gets for me to come to an understaning. There are so many variables.

 

[brandonk]

post 119464

post 117593 But in 1968 it had already been learned that, at least in rats, hypercapnia and hypoxia (which are the Buteyko techniques) are very effective at stimulating brown adipose tissue:

IIUC, Buteyko considered hypocapnia to contribute to ill-health in a multitude of ways, including by reducing oxygen delivery to tissues - ie by causing tissue hypoxia. He aimed to get people to stop hyperventilating and resume more 'normal' breathing, thereby restoring oxygen delivery.
As I see it, Buteyko's aim, with his methods, was to restore optimal CO2 levels - eucapnia - and tissue oxygenation. Not hypercapnia or hypoxia.

Yes, I completely agree. What's amazing to me is the level of CO2 that Buteyko considered to be ideal "eucapnia", according to the chart attributed to him that I posted above: 7.5% (54 mmHg) alveolar CO2! That's about the same or more than I've seen used in hospitals for what we now call "permissive hypercapnia"!

 

[brandonk]

post 119568

post 119463 If higher CO2 level and higher CP makes for more efficient delivery of oxygen, as Buteyko and the Bohr Effect theory says, then why wouldn't it be possible to have greater oxygen delivery with higher CP and higher BMR and lower heart-rate?

Yes that's my question too.

There are a lot oft things that seems to influence heart rate:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_volume
Reduced heart rate prolongs ventricular diastole (filling), increasing end-diastolic volume, and ultimately allowing more blood to be ejected.

My knowledge in human physiology is just to poor and the more i read the more difficult it gets for me to come to an understaning. There are so many variables.

I think the basic flaw is that a sustained very low pulse rate would ultimately require (either an extremely low BMR, or if you have a high BMR) an extremely large heart that would be biomechanically impossible.

I suspect that Buteyko took his pulse readings when the subject had fasted or had eaten no sugar, thus leading to a temporarily low BMR. I have also read anecdotal accounts from people who do very long breath holds for world records, that they control their pulse by practicing extreme hyperventilation, with very hard rapid breathing to build up the oxygen in the blood temporarily, and this allows them (they claim) to reduce their pulse (temporarily), which is one of the secrets for holding their breath a long time.

In other words, I infer that Buteyko's measurement of very low pulse rate was a temporary phenomenon, and not sustained.

 

[Ahanu]

post 119582 . I have also read anecdotal accounts from people who do very long breath holds for world records, that they control their pulse by practicing extreme hyperventilation, with very hard rapid breathing to build up the oxygen in the blood temporarily,

I am not sure if thats the case.

Voluntary hyperventilation before beginning voluntary apnea is commonly believed to allow the person involved to safely hold their breath for a longer period. In reality, it will give the impression that one does not need to breathe, while the body is actually experiencing a blood-oxygen level that would normally, and indirectly, invoke a strong dyspnea. Some have incorrectly attributed the effect of hyperventilation to increased oxygen in the blood, not realizing that it is actually due to a decrease in CO2 in the blood and lungs. Blood leaving the lungs is normally fully saturated with oxygen, so hyperventilation of normal air cannot increase the amount of oxygen available.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apnea

 

[Ahanu]

post 119582 In other words, I infer that Buteyko's measurement of very low pulse rate was a temporary phenomenon, and not sustained.

As a scientist he may of course thought about this and measurded the puls over a longer period of time. At least his own puls would have given him thoughts that there is something wrong with the table.

 

[brandonk]

post 119598

post 119582 In other words, I infer that Buteyko's measurement of very low pulse rate was a temporary phenomenon, and not sustained.

As a scientist he may of course thought about this and measurded the puls over a longer period of time. At least his own puls would have given him thoughts that there is something wrong with the table.

Sorry, I didn't mean to cast aspersions on Buteyko, and I actually have enormous respect for his work. I just infer that he had observed a number of people, who like the world-record breathholders, had various techniques for temporarily lowering their pulse, but need not have been hypothyroid.

The world-record breath-holders, for example, don't always have such a low pulse, but only do it during their breathholding attempts.

 

[brandonk]

post 119592

post 119582 . I have also read anecdotal accounts from people who do very long breath holds for world records, that they control their pulse by practicing extreme hyperventilation, with very hard rapid breathing to build up the oxygen in the blood temporarily,

I am not sure if thats the case.

Voluntary hyperventilation before beginning voluntary apnea is commonly believed to allow the person involved to safely hold their breath for a longer period. In reality, it will give the impression that one does not need to breathe, while the body is actually experiencing a blood-oxygen level that would normally, and indirectly, invoke a strong dyspnea. Some have incorrectly attributed the effect of hyperventilation to increased oxygen in the blood, not realizing that it is actually due to a decrease in CO2 in the blood and lungs. Blood leaving the lungs is normally fully saturated with oxygen, so hyperventilation of normal air cannot increase the amount of oxygen available.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apnea

This isn't necessarily wrong for "mouth breathers" (as Buteyko might say), but for Buteyko "belly-breathers", the blood leaving the lungs is not fully saturated with oxygen, because the high level of carbon dioxide (from the belly) competes with the oxygen from the atmosphere when binding with hemoglobin in the blood.

And so when a belly-breather starts to breathe fast and hard she both decreases CO2 and increases O2. Less CO2 (from rapid breathing) is more O2, because they can compete with each other to bind hemoglobin.

 

[tara]

post 119557 Of course, any information should be taken with caution but just dismissing a source as corrupt in cases were it don't fits our personal view is too simple.

I agree.

post 119557 And who decides what is uncontroversial and what not? Our biased view?

Any significant disagreement with anyone who provides reasoned argument counts as controversy, as far as I'm concerned. No doubt there are many controversies I just don't know about yet, though.

Some things are pretty generally uncontroversial, though. Basic physics, for instance, and a great deal of anatomy and chemistry. There's more room for controversy in more complex systems.

If you think I've pointed to wikipedia quotes that are controversial in any scientist's eyes, I'm genuinely interested to know.

 

[tara]

post 119592

post 119582 . I have also read anecdotal accounts from people who do very long breath holds for world records, that they control their pulse by practicing extreme hyperventilation, with very hard rapid breathing to build up the oxygen in the blood temporarily,

I am not sure if thats the case.

Voluntary hyperventilation before beginning voluntary apnea is commonly believed to allow the person involved to safely hold their breath for a longer period. In reality, it will give the impression that one does not need to breathe, while the body is actually experiencing a blood-oxygen level that would normally, and indirectly, invoke a strong dyspnea. Some have incorrectly attributed the effect of hyperventilation to increased oxygen in the blood, not realizing that it is actually due to a decrease in CO2 in the blood and lungs. Blood leaving the lungs is normally fully saturated with oxygen, so hyperventilation of normal air cannot increase the amount of oxygen available.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apnea

That's how it looks to me too. Not more oxygen, just less CO2, so it takes longer for CO2 to build up enough to trigger a strong drive to breath. People have drowned themselves by this misunderstanding.

 

[Ahanu]

post 119676 If you think I've pointed to wikipedia quotes that are controversial in any scientist's eyes, I'm genuinely interested to know.

No tara, i don't think that you quoted some controversial wikipedia quote. Sorry if i gave the impression. It was more a generall thought.

 

[Ahanu]

Just saw this comment and it fits here very well:
tobieagle said: ↑
Ray mentioned in his last interview that increased CO2 can also decrease the heartrate because of lower vascular resistance.

 

[Giraffe]

BW: Now I remember you once telling me that at one point there was something called "firemen's oxygen" in which they had about 6 - 8 % carbon dioxide in the oxygen.
RP: Yeah, Yandell Henderson was the physiologist who got that popular to the point that fire departments all over the country started using it because the carbon dioxide at that very high concentration is extremely effective for restoring respiration to suffocated people, and for babies too that don't breathe properly.
BW: Is anyone still using carbon dioxide. Isn't it used or was used at some points in operation rooms?
RP: Oh, every now and then there is some person who says that hospitals are killing patients by giving them pure oxygen and say they would wish that hospitals switch, start using 5-8 % carbon dioxide whenever they give oxygen because it's basically stress inducing and toxic to give people oxygen in excess. At sea level we really have an excess of oxygen.

The Treatment of Pneumonia by Inhalation of Carbon Dioxide (Yandell Henderson)

"Nature has provided the lungs with several protective devices and reactions. The most obvious is the cough reflex by which irritating foreign bodies are removed. Less obvious, but more constantly acting, are the movements of respiration which are probably accompanied by peristaltic contractions and relaxations of the air tubes. The mucosa lining these tubes bears cilia which produce a continual flow of secretion from the depths of the lungs outward."

"Occlusion of an air tube puts all of these mechanisms for the clearing of the lungs out of action. The air in the occluded portion of the lung is soon absorbed, and the alveoli are deflated and collapsed. They are then gradually filled by accumulation of secretion. The conditions resulting are in all respects favorable to the development of microorganisms and, correspondingly, unfavorable both to the general defenses of the body and the special defenses of the lungs. It is a highly significant fact, as revealed by experiment, that in order to induce pneumonia in dogs it is not enough merely to introduce the pathogenic organisms into the lungs ; it is essential also to narcotize the animals so deeply that the cough reflex is abolished and respiration is depressed. In general, depressed or shallow breathing tends to permit the development of pneumonia, and deep breathing with full ventilation of the lungs tends strongly to inhibit it."

"In pneumonia it is the blocking of the lung airways, bronchi or bronchioli, by plugs of thick and sticky secretion which is the critical morbidic factor producing atelectasis [= collapse or closure of a lung resulting in reduced or absent gas exchange] and the conditions characteristic of an undrained infection." Inhalation of carbon dioxide results in opening up of pneumonic lungs.

related post

 

[ken]

I suppose that's why my nose stays clear when I tape my mouth at night.

 

[charlie]

" Inhalation of carbon dioxide results in opening up of pneumonic lungs.

Incredible.

 

[ken]

I 'm not sure if it was 2 or 4 years ago, I went to hear Gerald Pollack speak at a small public lecture. A book tour sort of thing. On the way out I said to him, wouldn't what your showing mean that it's important to keep body temperature high. ie that it would produce more of the ez separation that he was talking about. He kind of shook his head negatively. Here in one of his latest papers he calls out the co2 produced by metabolism and the radiant energy produced internally. as being possible co-factors.https://www.pollacklab.org/single-p...-Charge-Separation-at-the-Air–Water-Interface